Dude.... they said in Allisons post that it was not the playstyle they wanted. It was causing unintented problems (and I'm sure, many player complaints), so they stepped in and fixed it. :rolleyes:"

Hi everyone, we asked Rob Hinkle (Senior PvP Designer) to shed some more light on why this change was made. As many of you suspected, we implemented this change to reduce the frequency with which players abandon Warzone matches mid-fight. We found that Group Finder queues popping were a major cause of players leaving, and wanted to mitigate this negative impact on Warzones.

This actually doesn't say anything about stacking queues not being intended. What it indicates is that one of the undesired results from stacking queues the way they had the system set up was that people were leaving wzs when a lfg popped.

Stacking queues is not a problem. What is a problem is when the lfg pops in the middle of a wz and people leave. So supress the lfg pop for that person. Pause them in queue (they stay #34 or whatever) while they're in the wz. As it stands, the lower level fps take forever and a day to find a group for. Now that people can't kill time doing wzs while in lfg, you'll likely (not for sure, but likely) see those queues stretch out even farther. I think there are more sensible ways to fix the issue of people leaving wzs.

Of course we could argue back and forth all day about the fix they chose, but that would be pointless.... they addressed a problem, and installed a fix. Working as intended now, even though some people don't like being forced to not stack queues.

Actually, it's not pointless. If they see that the community is not pleased with the fix they chose and has some ideas they may not have come up with, then perhaps they will change the way the fix is implemented. Unlike some people, I don't assume they're omnipotent gods or completely deaf.

The problem with people dropping from warzones has little to do with the group finder. People quit warzones because they dont like the map, a lack of healers on their team, too many bad players, and/or going up against premade teams that are more interested in farming them than ending the match quickly. The majority of people who leave warzones immediately requeue for pvp, so why destroy the group finder queue times even further with this heavy handed change? Its not going to help the issue of people dropping for warzones at all.

Not totally true. Usually I leave only when the LFG queue pops up. So I agree with the reason of the change.

Not totally true. Usually I leave only when the LFG queue pops up. So I agree with the reason of the change.

If you really enjoy standing around on Fleet waiting for the flashpoint queue to pop, you're really going to love this change because the rest of us who don't enjoy watching paint dry aren't going to bother using the group finder as much so by all means, have fun with an even greater wait time than before.

So to you personally, there is nothing to do except: queue for a WZ, queue for a FP, sit in fleet and complain? I see. Thing is, not everybody has such a self-constrained playstyle.

You're right, people should go out and do their heroic dailies while they wait for the gro-

what's that? You can't group at all while you're in the group finder queue? And it can take *hours* to get a pop for a DPS?

Well... stop being so self centered and ... keep unlearning and re-learning new crew skills..? participate in open world pvp?

Gosh, why is everyone so demanding and selfish with the time they spend doing and activity they pay for, over many other competing activities and services, in their personal leisure time?

Stop mis-representing what was said. The pvp designer doesn't want people leaving warzones (completely understandable) and they put in the a fix without regard to what it would do to both the GF and PVP queue times. They presumably did this because it was the quickest and/or easiest fix or a last minute band-aid. Lending credibility to this theory are the facts that it wasn't announced or even included in the patch notes originally. A solution that had been thought through and discussed would have been on someone's radar and at least made the patch notes.

Several other alternatives have been proposed that would keep people from quitting early. The quitting is what the dev wanted to avoid, not the ability to experience both sides of the PVE and PVP game. You are really fiercely defending a position that bioware didn't actually take, and it's silly.

The correct response to all of the threads on this topic should have been:

"We appreciate all of your suggestions about alternative ways to reduce early quitting in warzones. We have heard the frustrations of players who feel the sting of team members abandoning a warzone at a crucial moment. We also understand and are excited that our players want to participate in both the exciting PVP aspects of our game, and use our group finder to experience PVE content and complete the daily quests that require its use. We will be looking at ways to make sure both are possible, and implementing the change in an upcoming patch.

 

Thank you for your feedback."

Allison, Joveth, whoever - Feel free to use this word for word if you want. Just do the right thing and help the players get across the frustration with this change to the devs.

Stacking queues is not a problem. What is a problem is when the lfg pops in the middle of a wz and people leave. So supress the lfg pop for that person. Pause them in queue (they stay #34 or whatever) while they're in the wz. As it stands, the lower level fps take forever and a day to find a group for. Now that people can't kill time doing wzs while in lfg, you'll likely (not for sure, but likely) see those queues stretch out even farther. I think there are more sensible ways to fix the issue of people leaving wzs.

 

Actually, it's not pointless. If they see that the community is not pleased with the fix they chose and has some ideas they may not have come up with, then perhaps they will change the way the fix is implemented. Unlike some people, I don't assume they're omnipotent gods or completely deaf.

This exactly, thank you.

They already have the mechanic to roll someone from a GF pop to requeuing them near the top of the list - that's exactly what happens when one of the people selected declines the group.

The mechanic already exists - use it, please.

Could you make another change, as it seems like the queue for dps'ers for FP's is rediculous now..

Do it so the people playing pvp can stay in the FP queue so they don't start from the bottom after each wz.. Should make it pop much faster for everyone..

(bolded for emphasis)

This actually doesn't say anything about stacking queues not being intended. What it indicates is that one of the undesired results from stacking queues the way they had the system set up was that people were leaving wzs when a lfg popped.

 

Stacking queues is not a problem. What is a problem is when the lfg pops in the middle of a wz and people leave. So supress the lfg pop for that person. Pause them in queue (they stay #34 or whatever) while they're in the wz. As it stands, the lower level fps take forever and a day to find a group for. Now that people can't kill time doing wzs while in lfg, you'll likely (not for sure, but likely) see those queues stretch out even farther. I think there are more sensible ways to fix the issue of people leaving wzs.

 

Actually, it's not pointless. If they see that the community is not pleased with the fix they chose and has some ideas they may not have come up with, then perhaps they will change the way the fix is implemented. Unlike some people, I don't assume they're omnipotent gods or completely deaf.

STACKING of queues, WAS THE CAUSE.... and you know it. Leaving because a queue popped was an allowed behavior due to the cause. So stop pretending otherwise. In a mature player base where people would respect the group they were in and not jump to a queue pop.... there would be no problem. But it's clearly not a mature player base, it's largely selfish and self-interested... so they stack and jump.

If you want to make JUMP the issue, that is fine... but they can't jump if they can't STACK. So STACKING is the root cause that is actionable by the game developers.

STACKING of queues, WAS THE CAUSE.... and you know it. So stop pretending otherwise. In a mature player base where people would respect the group they were in and not jump to a queue pop.... there would be no problem. But it's clearly not a mature player base, it's largely selfish and self-interested... so they stack and jump.

 

If you want to make JUMP the issue, that is fine... but they can't jump if they can't STACK.

I'm quoting myself here because you either missed or intentionally misrepresented what I said.

This actually doesn't say anything about stacking queues not being intended. What it indicates is that one of the undesired results from stacking queues the way they had the system set up was that people were leaving wzs when a lfg popped.

One of the results of stacking queues was to cause people to leave wzs when a lfg queue would pop. I said it in my earlier post, I'll say it again here. So stop accusing me of pretending that wasn't the cause of the issue. Does their fix stop this? Yes. Does their fix have other negative consequences? Yes. Are there other possible soutions? Yes.

STACKING of queues, WAS THE CAUSE.... and you know it. Leaving because a queue popped was an allowed behavior due to the cause. So stop pretending otherwise. In a mature player base where people would respect the group they were in and not jump to a queue pop.... there would be no problem. But it's clearly not a mature player base, it's largely selfish and self-interested... so they stack and jump.

 

If you want to make JUMP the issue, that is fine... but they can't jump if they can't STACK. So STACKING is the root cause that is actionable by the game developers.

People leave a warzone because there is a scarcity problem. It can take a DPS hours to get a GF queue, and under the old system, minutes to get a warzone (which backfilled pretty quickly), though that could be optimized by reducing loading times, time to accept the invite, cinematics.

People wanting to experience both aspects of the game in a reasonable period of time is not a problem, it's a strength.

Does their fix stop this? Yes.

We agree. And I think we would both agree a stop to it was needed.

Does their fix have other negative consequences? Yes.

All changes to game mechanics introduce what some perceive to be negative consequences. Happily, it's the game developers that make assessment and final choices, NOT the players (who are at best a fractionalized bag of special interest groups very often at odds with one another).

Are there other possible soutions? Yes.

There are usually multiple solutions to a problem, which is why the developer team has to analyze and assess what is in the best interests of the larger community of players as a whole, NOT any given special interest group. Unlike some here, I recognize this, and I do not envy them for the work and decisions they must make as there is no pleasing everyone.

People leave a warzone because there is a scarcity problem. It can take a DPS hours to get a GF queue, and under the old system, minutes to get a warzone (which backfilled pretty quickly), though that could be optimized by reducing loading times, time to accept the invite, cinematics.

 

People wanting to experience both aspects of the game in a reasonable period of time is not a problem, it's a strength.

IMO the root problem is an over dependence by the player base on PUGs, rather then the older and more traditional approach of MMO players where friends (real life or virtual) and guild members form your core activity pool to enjoy group content. Playing with people you know and trust, to a planned schedule (and group roles and makeup) instead of "whatever/whenever as long as I can get my loot" mindset. PUG style play is a core issue to all of this, and it goes to the general maturity level (in terms of play style) of the community in today's MMOs. I fault WoW for addicting the playerbase into thinking PUG is somehow now the prefered play style of much of the population.

A couple things.

First, to the guy or gal arguing that it wasn't BW's intent to stop stacking queues, I have to ask: in what MMO have you played where stacking queues was an intended playstyle? That's a serious question because in my seven years of playing MMOs, I have yet to see it. No MMOs I have ever played encourages this. In fact, they discourage it by putting in features similar to the one BioWare just did where they put a stop to queuing for multiple things. You trying to say Allison never mentioned this as a problem is engaging in semantics. The fact BW put a stop to queueing for WZs and FPs at the same time means they don't want you to be stacking queues. If they were fine with it, this change would never have been put in to begin with.

Second, for those of you complaining about how long it takes for queues to pop for DPS, I'm going to once again assume you are new to MMOs as this happens in all of them. There's always an overabundance of DPS. So, there are two solutions to this problem. Either roll a tank or healer and have instant queues, or BW implements cross-realm FP queuing. But in reality the only way that you will have guaranteed short queues is to play a support class. That is the easiest fix. And I say this as a DPS class myself, where I, too, am waiting hours for a queue. Is it frustrating? Of course. But I knew when I rolled a sentinel that it would be a consequence.

Someone on here said it best years ago before the game launched. There are really only two classes in every game: LFM and LFG.

If you really enjoy standing around on Fleet waiting for the flashpoint queue to pop, you're really going to love this change because the rest of us who don't enjoy watching paint dry aren't going to bother using the group finder as much so by all means, have fun with an even greater wait time than before.

I think you misunderstood. I'd rather play WZ than do FPs.

First, to the guy or gal arguing that it wasn't BW's intent to stop stacking queues, I have to ask: in what MMO have you played where stacking queues was an intended playstyle? That's a serious question because in my seven years of playing MMOs, I have yet to see it. No MMOs I have ever played encourages this.

So because no other MMO has done this, it couldn't possibly have been intended? Interesting. It's possible that it wasn't intended, although I have seen no clear statements from devs or the community team to indicate that. It's also possible that BW decided to try something different so the long dps queues weren't as onerous.

There are usually multiple solutions to a problem, which is why the developer team has to analyze and assess what is in the best interests of the larger community of players as a whole, NOT any given special interest group. Unlike some here, I recognize this, and I do not envy them for the work and decisions they must make as there is no pleasing everyone.

You know, I've watched your posts for quite awhile. You strongly advocate a hands-off approach from the players, one in which we should never or rarely criticize developer decisions because they "know best" despite numerous examples of developers listening to and implementing suggestions from the player-base. There are many many quotes I could find on this board from the community team and developers asking for input, asking players to tell them our concerns and make suggestions both generally and on specific matters. I fear you do them a grave diservice by trying to quash criticism and trivializing the suggestions that get thrown their way.

There are other solutions for people leaving wzs. I suggested one; others have suggested other solutions. My belief, based on what I've seen, is that if there is enough community upset about the issue and if the solutions suggested are viable, there is a good chance BW will change the way they handle this issue.

... but they can't jump if they can't STACK. So STACKING is the root cause that is actionable by the game developers.

They can't jump if the game puts their queue position on hold while they PvP, either, but you thought that thiat was a terrible idea because the people that were stacking would complain.

Well, they are complaining now. At least my way they would eventually be able to work their way to the top of the queue. Your way, they never even get into it.

IMO the root problem is an over dependence by the player base on PUGs, rather then the older and more traditional approach of MMO players where friends (real life or virtual) and guild members form your core activity pool to enjoy group content. Playing with people you know and trust, to a planned schedule (and group roles and makeup) instead of "whatever/whenever as long as I can get my loot" mindset. PUG style play is a core issue to all of this, and it goes to the general maturity level (in terms of play style) of the community in today's MMOs. I fault WoW for addicting the playerbase into thinking PUG is somehow now the prefered play style of much of the population.

So if I do not have any friends playing this game I shouldn't play?

If I do not want to belong to a guild and let other players decide what I "should" be doing or how I "should" be specced and geared, or to tell me that I "have to" use whatever voice chat they prefer, I shouldn't be playing?

I can not possibly just enjoy the stories and be satisfied with occasionally enjoying a flashpoint or heroic grouped up with people that I may not have ever teamed with before that time?

And you call me selfish?

You do not even know me.

I do not stack queues, I do not leave PvP groups at the first sign of trouble (or even when defeat is all but certain), and I do not ninja loot because I think that I might be able to sell it for a few credits or give it to an alt, but you are ready to ascribe every negative character trait that you can think of to me because PUGs are how I find any groups that I join.

You know, I've watched your posts for quite awhile. You strongly advocate a hands-off approach from the players, one in which we should never or rarely criticize developer decisions because they "know best" despite numerous examples of developers listening to and implementing suggestions from the player-base.

I advocate for giving the developer team player ideas and concerns in a constructive manner and through the channels they have defined for doing so. I do not advocate for complaining and second guessing every single thing the developer team does.

When they make a change, the first thing I do is look at the change and assess why, and what they were wanting to achieve, then I comment about it. There are others here that do similar, but there are many that simply criticize everything Bioware does without even attempting to think through what/why/how. Do they make mistakes... yep they sure do (and they admit it too). However in a gaming forum....everyones definition of "mistake" is different and often subjective so that's an endless rat hole really. Some are valid, some are not. Regardless, players do not decide what gets changed (no matter how much they think stomping their feet will work), the developer teams does (based on a lot of input from a lot of different channels and players).

And yes, at the end of the day, it is the developer team that 1) has the most complete view, information, and data 2) knows what they want their MMO to be for the broadest scope of the player base 3) has to make the actual decisions about what to do, what not to do, and what to adjust or change over time. NOT the players.

And, I am consistent in my approach regardless of the MMO I am discussing and which forum I am posting in. I play an MMO for what it offers me as a player, not based on my dreams of wishes at a personal level as to what it needs to be. I recognize that I am the player, and the MMO is the MMO. I play it for what it is if I enjoy it and like it. If I don't I move on to something else. What I do not do is stomp and complain that the developer team is clueless or never plays their own game, or is fail, etc. etc.

So if I do not have any friends playing this game I shouldn't play?

Never said that. In fact I never specifically commented on anything about you personally or your play preference or style.

All I said was that PUG mechanics have created a deep dependency in the player base, and encouarges selfish play styles rather then community play style, loyalty, and trust between group members.

PUG if you like. Your choice. But it does not change the fact that PUG mechanics destroy some fundamental qualities of MMOs that existed in more depth then before PUGs became an integral part of the game mechanics. I grant that they do allow the individual access to group content, in the absence of anyone they know and trust to play an MMO with.

 

Stacking queues is not a problem. What is a problem is when the lfg pops in the middle of a wz and people leave. So supress the lfg pop for that person. Pause them in queue (they stay #34 or whatever) while they're in the wz. As it stands, the lower level fps take forever and a day to find a group for. Now that people can't kill time doing wzs while in lfg, you'll likely (not for sure, but likely) see those queues stretch out even farther. I think there are more sensible ways to fix the issue of people leaving wzs.

It's way too smart for Bioware...

It injects more exception case cycles into the GF, just so an individual player is able to stack his queues. It encourages stacking of queues... which was not the intended play style.

Andryah, stacking the queue's allowed for multiple styles of gameplay (PvP while waiting for PvE). All the removal of this ability does is make it HARDER to fill the GF queue's. There's NO CHANCE it could be "abused" if it popped up AFTER a WZ. None. It would simply HELP those using the GF queue. They may have to wait a few minutes, but doesn't that beat not having a player queue up? I often queued for both because I wanted to do both, but I didn't want to waste my time. All this new change does is removes my tank from the GF pool...how on earth is this "good" for the game?!

How exactly does suppressing the queue work? And would it inconvenience other group members who are ready to go?

It would be hard to say exactly how it would work without access to BW's LFG mechanics, but I'm assuming they have some sort of numbering system. So someone who is DPS (I'll call him Dan) might queue up with 21 other DPS in front of him, for example. Dan's #22. If someone ahead of Dan drops out of queue, he moves up to #21. A queue pops and #1 and #2 in the DPS queue are put into a group. So now Dan is #19.

If Dan is queuing for wz's along with lfg then perhaps a wz pops at this point. If you pause Dan at #19 then he won't get a lfg pop during the wz. Instead the current #20, 21, 22, and so forth, will continue to move up the line, skipping Dan. When he gets out of the wz, he'll still be #19 but some of the people who were behind him will have moved in front of him in line.

Such a system shouldn't inconvenience other group members. If Dan were #2 in line, for example, and joins a wz, then he pauses at #2 and the people at #1 and #3 would be given the next group.

How exactly does suppressing the queue work? And would it inconvenience other group members who are ready to go?

It would work similarly to how it works now. When the group finder has a tank, 2 DPS and a heals queued at the top of the list, it checks if they are in a warzone. If yes, i picks the person on the list below them for that slot and leaves that person at the top of the list. Ideally, it would let you know that you have been skipped by the GF so you don't requeue for PVP because you are at the top of the list.

It's like how when you get matched and someone declines, the 3 who didn't decline are left at the top of the list for the next attempted match.

I would love to hear arguments about who this hurts or doesn't benefit, or how to tweak it, because I think this is a far better solution than hurting both FP and PVP queues, while using existing mechanics and not creating too much extra work.

It would be hard to say exactly how it would work without access to BW's LFG mechanics, but I'm assuming they have some sort of numbering system. So someone who is DPS (I'll call him Dan) might queue up with 21 other DPS in front of him, for example. Dan's #22. If someone ahead of Dan drops out of queue, he moves up to #21. A queue pops and #1 and #2 in the DPS queue are put into a group. So now Dan is #19.

 

If Dan is queuing for wz's along with lfg then perhaps a wz pops at this point. If you pause Dan at #19 then he won't get a lfg pop during the wz. Instead the current #20, 21, 22, and so forth, will continue to move up the line, skipping Dan. When he gets out of the wz, he'll still be #19 but some of the people who were behind him will have moved in front of him in line.

 

Such a system shouldn't inconvenience other group members. If Dan were #2 in line, for example, and joins a wz, then he pauses at #2 and the people at #1 and #3 would be given the next group.

But, yeah, we'd need to know how BW's LFG tool is set up. This might not be as easy as it sound to implement.