Holu hell, you don't want to understand that this FP is made to be done in Tionese (someone did it in a 2-man group ...). You don't even understand that Lorrick drops the Rakata chest and the Columi MH (check who drops them ....).

Not at all, Tier 1 is made for Tionese, LI HM is mostly columi.

Sure some people can do it with tionese or 2, but not the majority and especially not most of the pugs. I've grouped with many many pugs and none of the group with tionese player could beat this through. Some people can do EC with 4 so it should be 4 man FP? No.

Rule number 1 in any game is that if you cannot accomplish the objectives - you do not get loot. The fact that this pseudo "many people" of yours is spending hours on this flashpoint and paying tons of repair bill clearly makes it visible that they are not geared or skilled enough for this flashpoint. There is nothing Bioware can do if you don't L2P.

Really? So players should not get any upgrade except from final boss? So Tier 1 HM should not drop those columi belt/bracer/implants/earpieces or those relics or the exotech? EV/KP HM should not drop rakta before final boss? EC HM should not drop campaign before final boss? TFB should not drop dreadguard before final boss?

Also it's completely asinine how you don't see a Rakata chest and a Columi Main Hand as upgrade.

Only the final boss, Kephess' drop is also quite good, so previous EC HM bosses should only drop rakata? LR-5 and Sav-Rak are around the same difficultly of Lorrick. significantly harder than any Tier 1 HM bosses and none of them are skippable, why shouldn't they drop upgrade to columi players?

Columi Main Hand is the absolute hardest to obtain Columi gear in the game, I have explained you this before yet you conviniently ignore facts and just continue ranting.

Strip the mods out from offhand and here you go, only SI/JC need it. So campaign MH is hard to get and previous EC HM bosses should not drop campaign?

And Rakata chestpiece is also the 2nd hardest Rakata gear to obtain.

Same logic as other HM, and you can get BH chest.

These rewards are VERY GOOD for a flashpoing that is REPEATABLE.

Not if 2 of the 3 bosses drop useless stuff for columi.

You are given WEEKLY OPS loot in a content that can be repeatable. Continue ignoring these undisputable facts. Go on. Ignore them some more, continue ranting. Fact is all of your points have been debunked, questions answered, facts corrected time after time again in this thread by multiple people. At this point if you choose to dig your head into the sand and pretend the world is a dark place, there is nothing ANY OF US can do.

Fact:

Tier 1 HM drops useful stuff before final boss

EV/KP HM drops rakata before final boss.

EC HM drops campaign before final boss

TFB HM drops dreadguard before final boss

Only LI HM drops columi MH and rakata chest from final boss, previous bosses drop columi leg and boot, and majority need columi to beat this FP so these are useless to them.

Now tell me, are you saying Bioware did all those 4 HM wrong but only LI right, or bosses should not drop useful stuff to the majority of the players who can beat it?

One day we'll find a new topic to debate and it will be refreshing.

Actually, yes. Let's stay within your analogy for a bit. I'm a salaried computer programmer irl. This means I don't get paid for overtime. I can be skilled player and defeat (complete) operations (project) and get good loot (bonuses for on-time delivery) or I can be a less skilled player and overgear (work overtime) the instance.

Do LI HM with columi is not overgearing it.

1. I say that SM EC and SM TfB don't give good loot either (compared to their difficulty), because they're Tier 2 operations.

2. Then you say that SM EC and SM TfB don't need to give good loot because they're practice for HM.

Story Mode=know the story and get ready for HM

Hard/Nightmare Mode=challenge and loot

Why compare SM to HM rather than HM to HM?

3. Then I say that HM LI is good practice for T2 ops.

4. Then you ignore that point.

Totally different bosses and tactics, that's not practice.

5. Then I say that Hard Mode EC for first-timers (and who aren't being carried by a guild) have crappy drops as well. The first time I went all the way through HM EC on my first level 50 (Commando dps), I won 2 drops of Campaign gear but ended up sending them to alts, because they weren't upgrades over my BH.

I don't see it, BH does not give set bonus before 1.5's armor pieces and many people also do it with rakata. Also EC HM is not on GF, which is not recommended for pugs

I've healed a tank with 14 k health through this, tioness is fine and everyone gets it for free now.

Again, good groups can do it with tionese but not the majority, not most of the pugs.

Tank does not have big gear challenge in LI HM, unless the rest of the team really overgear him then it could be a bit hard for him to grab aggro.

Healer needs good gear in Sav Rak unless the team could avoid unnecessary damage well and DPS down him before enrage.

DPS' equipment has to be good since Sav-Rak's enrage timer and Lorrick's 1st/3rd phase, it's doable in tionese but very hard and usually not worth the time.

Not at all, Tier 1 is made for Tionese, LI HM is mostly columi.

Just because many people that have no clue how to play their class or how to deal with certain mechanics feel the need to overgear the content does not mean that the content was made for whatever arbitrary gear level you seem to think is required for it based upon your experiences with bad and mediocre players.

HM LI is utilizes *mechanically driven* difficulty. From a flat numbers perspective, the difficulty is appropriate for a full group of Tionese geared players. This is *explicitly* what the developers were consulting when they determined enrage timers, damage dealt by certain abilities, and every other numerically derived aspect of designing HM LI. They designed the content with Tionese geared players in mind. It also wasn't designed with random groups of players in mind, especially those that have no clue what the strats are, how they're supposed to play said class, or what their abilities other than those that deal/heal damage are useful for. As a *mechanically difficult* flashpoint, it requires players that actually know what they're doing in order to clear it effectively. If they know all of the strats and what to do, they'll clear it just fine.

The problem that you seem to have stumbled upon is that the random person running around in Tionese gear has *not one whit* of a clue about how to play their class at 50, much less what they're supposed to do in Hm LI and those players that have alts in Tionese gear aren't in Tionese gear for very long because they know how to gear up characters very quickly. Gear and experience/proficiency are completely separate concepts. There are people in full BH/Campaign that can't seem to understand how to down SM Kephess the Undying. There are also people in full Columi (which is what Sm TfB is designed for) that can clear him, no problem. Just because random people in the appropriate gear can't clear it doesn't mean that it's intended (completely contradictory to explicit developer statements) for higher gear levels than what is explicitly stated. It just means that the random people you're dealing with don't have the skill to actual get through mechanically driven fights and must rely on overgearing the content to make up for their inability to actually deal with the mechanics appropriately.

Just because many people that have no clue how to play their class or how to deal with certain mechanics feel the need to overgear the content does not mean that the content was made for whatever arbitrary gear level you seem to think is required for it based upon your experiences with bad and mediocre players.

 

HM LI is utilizes *mechanically driven* difficulty. From a flat numbers perspective, the difficulty is appropriate for a full group of Tionese geared players. This is *explicitly* what the developers were consulting when they determined enrage timers, damage dealt by certain abilities, and every other numerically derived aspect of designing HM LI. They designed the content with Tionese geared players in mind. It also wasn't designed with random groups of players in mind, especially those that have no clue what the strats are, how they're supposed to play said class, or what their abilities other than those that deal/heal damage are useful for. As a *mechanically difficult* flashpoint, it requires players that actually know what they're doing in order to clear it effectively. If they know all of the strats and what to do, they'll clear it just fine.

 

The problem that you seem to have stumbled upon is that the random person running around in Tionese gear has *not one whit* of a clue about how to play their class at 50, much less what they're supposed to do in Hm LI and those players that have alts in Tionese gear aren't in Tionese gear for very long because they know how to gear up characters very quickly. Gear and experience/proficiency are completely separate concepts. There are people in full BH/Campaign that can't seem to understand how to down SM Kephess the Undying. There are also people in full Columi (which is what Sm TfB is designed for) that can clear him, no problem. Just because random people in the appropriate gear can't clear it doesn't mean that it's intended (completely contradictory to explicit developer statements) for higher gear levels than what is explicitly stated. It just means that the random people you're dealing with don't have the skill to actual get through mechanically driven fights and must rely on overgearing the content to make up for their inability to actually deal with the mechanics appropriately.

How is Columi overgearing LI HM? Right not it's very clear.

Tionese=HM FP recruit gear, you get it from the beginning.

Columi= Drops from Tier 1 HM end boss and some previous bosses.

So how is use Tier 1 HM's drop to do Tier 2 HM overgearing it? Just like use columi to do HM KP/EV, or use rakata to do HM EC, or use campaign to do HM TFB is clearly not overgearing it.

Do LI HM with columi is not overgearing it.

I just wanted to speak to this one point.

Let me quote Allison from earlier in this thread.

I talked with Jesse Sky (Lead Flashpoints and Operations Designer) about the difficulty of Lost Island and its rewards, and he shared his insight about these questions.

 

He mentioned that Lost Island is balanced very tightly for a group in Tionese-quality gear, but that because the boss mechanics are heavily execution-based, many players prefer to overgear for it. Small mistakes can easily wipe the group, so bringing Ops level gear is great insurance, even if it isn't required. The loot quality reflects this - players who take the risk of going in with Tionese and Columi gear will be rewarded. Players with Ops level gear are likely there for the Black Hole Commendations right now.

 

...

A few pieces of Columi isn't particularly overgeared.

FULL Columi + Rakata Chestpiece + Columi MH is.

The fewer pieces of gear you have, the greater the rewards.

Also:

So how is use Tier 1 HM's drop to do Tier 2 HM overgearing it? Just like use columi to do HM KP/EV, or use rakata to do HM EC, or use campaign to do HM TFB is clearly not overgearing it.

HM LI was turned for Tionese

HM EV/KP was tuned for Columi

HM EC was tuned for Rakata

HM TfB was turned for Campaign

MOST players, when they're new to level 50 will:

Bring Columi/BH into HM LI

Bring Rakata/BH into HM EV/KP

Bring BH into HM EC

Bring fully Augmented BH/Campaign into HM TfB

I just wanted to speak to this one point.

 

Let me quote Allison from earlier in this thread.

 

A few pieces of Columi isn't particularly overgeared.

 

FULL Columi + Rakata Chestpiece + Columi MH is.

 

The fewer pieces of gear you have, the greater the rewards.

Dont you know that inserting facts into an argument on these fourms is strictly prohibited! Next your gonna suggest common sense omg Maybe the Myans were right and the world has ended.

Dont you know that inserting facts into an argument on these fourms is strictly prohibited! Next your gonna suggest common sense omg Maybe the Myans were right and the world has ended.

/5char

Really? So players should not get any upgrade except from final boss? So Tier 1 HM should not drop those columi belt/bracer/implants/earpieces or those relics or the exotech? EV/KP HM should not drop rakta before final boss? EC HM should not drop campaign before final boss? TFB should not drop dreadguard before final boss?

 

 

 

Only the final boss, Kephess' drop is also quite good, so previous EC HM bosses should only drop rakata? LR-5 and Sav-Rak are around the same difficultly of Lorrick. significantly harder than any Tier 1 HM bosses and none of them are skippable, why shouldn't they drop upgrade to columi players?

 

 

 

Strip the mods out from offhand and here you go, only SI/JC need it. So campaign MH is hard to get and previous EC HM bosses should not drop campaign?

 

 

 

Same logic as other HM, and you can get BH chest.

 

 

 

Not if 2 of the 3 bosses drop useless stuff for columi.

 

 

 

Fact:

Tier 1 HM drops useful stuff before final boss

EV/KP HM drops rakata before final boss.

EC HM drops campaign before final boss

TFB HM drops dreadguard before final boss

 

Only LI HM drops columi MH and rakata chest from final boss, previous bosses drop columi leg and boot, and majority need columi to beat this FP so these are useless to them.

 

Now tell me, are you saying Bioware did all those 4 HM wrong but only LI right, or bosses should not drop useful stuff to the majority of the players who can beat it?

What majority? You are the ONLY PERSON arguing for this here, bring this majority of yours forward, come on.

What majority? You are the ONLY PERSON arguing for this here, bring this majority of yours forward, come on.

Well, in Slowpoking's defense, I will say that the majority of players that do HM LI for the first time don't get much in the way of rewards, because they probably overgear it. I just disagree that this is a problem.

1. Overgear it,

2. Get carried through it. or

3. Become a better player.

Let's reward skill.

What majority? You are the ONLY PERSON arguing for this here, bring this majority of yours forward, come on.

Are you saying the majority are doing LI HM with Tionese or most of the groups can do LI HM with Tionese?

I just wanted to speak to this one point.

 

Let me quote Allison from earlier in this thread.

 

A few pieces of Columi isn't particularly overgeared.

 

FULL Columi + Rakata Chestpiece + Columi MH is.

 

The fewer pieces of gear you have, the greater the rewards.

 

Also:

 

HM LI was turned for Tionese

HM EV/KP was tuned for Columi

HM EC was tuned for Rakata

HM TfB was turned for Campaign

 

MOST players, when they're new to level 50 will:

 

Bring Columi/BH into HM LI

Bring Rakata/BH into HM EV/KP

Bring BH into HM EC

Bring fully Augmented BH/Campaign into HM TfB

Oh really? Let's what the group finder said

http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1943&stc=1&d=1356557140

Tier 2 Hard Mode Flashpoint require gear with an average rating 136 or better(For example, Columi Gear)

Why did you people still say it's for Tionese when the GF clearly told us it's columi and it's what most of the players need to do.

Are you saying the majority are doing LI HM with Tionese or most of the groups can do LI HM with Tionese?

People have stated that the majority of people that are doing LI HM are over geared and only do it for the BH Coms just like the only reason we do HM FP are once again for the BH Coms. If you do it correctly and get lucky you can get kaon done as a random FP then only have to que for LI HM and you can escentially come away with what 18 coms with two HM FP. Which makes it very much worth the reward.

People have stated that the majority of people that are doing LI HM are over geared and only do it for the BH Coms just like the only reason we do HM FP are once again for the BH Coms. If you do it correctly and get lucky you can get kaon done as a random FP then only have to que for LI HM and you can escentially come away with what 18 coms with two HM FP. Which makes it very much worth the reward.

I'm sorry but pls put your mouse to the GF of Tier 2 HM section and see what did it say. I already posted the picture.

Oh really? Let's what the group finder said

 

http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1943&stc=1&d=1356557140

 

 

 

Why did you people still say it's for Tionese when the GF clearly told us it's columi and it's what most of the players need to do.

If you cant take what a Developer of the game stated. Then there is no point even speaking with you about it. The dev clearly stated that it was geared specificly for Tionesse.

I'm sorry but pls put your mouse to the GF of Tier 2 HM section and see what did it say. I already posted the picture.

What did you pic have anything to do with the fact that I said the majority of players doing LI HM are over geared for it. The only reason they do it are for the COMS. What did that have anything to do with your pic ?

If you cant take what a Developer of the game stated. Then there is no point even speaking with you about it. The dev clearly stated that it was geared specificly for Tionesse.

Are you saying the introduction in the GF is not works from the developers?

The introduction in the game represents the idea of the dev group right now(1.6 was out like weeks before?), that has more effort than 1 developer said a while ago. And in the game that's what most of the people need to beat the boss.

What did you pic have anything to do with the fact that I said the majority of players doing LI HM are over geared for it. The only reason they do it are for the COMS. What did that have anything to do with your pic ?

Run LI with columi is not overgearing it, thus the boss should drop something better than it.

The introduction in the game represents the idea of the dev group right now(1.6 was out like weeks before?), that has more effort than 1 developer said a while ago. And in the game that's what most of the people need to beat the boss.

Actually, the developers included that because most players, when they're learning content, need better gear than what it was designed for in order to not die horribly. If someone already knows HM LI, they can queue up in pure Tionese and have no problems whatsoever. It's the same reason why the developers want people in Tionese in order to do the baseline HM FPs: even though they're not designed with Tionese in mind, the average new player can't handle them without overgearing them so they have to recommend people overgear them until they actually understand what they're doing (since those tooltips are for new players rather than experienced ones).

Actually, the developers included that because most players, when they're learning content, need better gear than what it was designed for in order to not die horribly. If someone already knows HM LI, they can queue up in pure Tionese and have no problems whatsoever. It's the same reason why the developers want people in Tionese in order to do the baseline HM FPs: even though they're not designed with Tionese in mind, the average new player can't handle them without overgearing them so they have to recommend people overgear them until they actually understand what they're doing (since those tooltips are for new players rather than experienced ones).

Wait, the drops should not base upon new players and the majority but those who already did it and run it for BH comm? It is recommended to go with Columi in the game. How is columi overgearing?

Sure it's totally possible to beat it with Tionese or even companion but most people could not do it nor is it recommended to do, many of these "tionese groups" already beat it before many times with better gear, then try it for a challenge or they only have 1-2 members with tionese in the group, that's a lot different than "it's recommended to do with Tionese". I've run it through with many groups, but pug groups with tionese usually failed horribly in LR-5. Are you saying the drop should base on the elite people rather than new players who are trying it for gear?

Run LI with columi is not overgearing it, thus the boss should drop something better than it.

Run EC HM with BH/Campaign is overgearing it ? Seriously, I'm getting tired of hearing you. you are bad enough to wipe on LI, even in BH/Campaign, and you don't even understand that goodplayers can do it in Tionese, and you must overgearing it, then whine about hw yo don't get stuff for the achievement.

Good players can do it in Tionese.

Decent players can do it in Columi.

Bad players need more.

Same story for EC HM/NiM and Asation HM. Do you know that EC HM can be done with Rakata without augments ?

Do LI HM with columi is not overgearing it.

As i recall, the first few times I did HM LI, I had a couple pieces of Tionese on, and I think I was able to replace my leg armor, mainhand and chest within a few runs. This was while still learning the place with the group, as it was a new FP. You assume that everyone has farmed all of the T1 HMs for all their Columi before ever setting foot in HM LI. I did not. Several people that i know have not. I did HM LI yesterday with 2 people that needed items from HM LI, and not just the Rakata. They were decent players that had done the place maybe twice before, and they were rewarded for their skill.

Totally different bosses and tactics, that's not practice.

That is why you fail. - Yoda

Learning to respond to mechanics IS great practice. Maybe they're not the exact same mechanics, but you learn to RESPOND to the many "move out of this" mechanics, the interrupt mechanics, and the "do this or die" mechanics.

Run EC HM with BH/Campaign is overgearing it ? Seriously, I'm getting tired of hearing you. you are bad enough to wipe on LI, even in BH/Campaign, and you don't even understand that goodplayers can do it in Tionese, and you must overgearing it, then whine about hw yo don't get stuff for the achievement.

 

Good players can do it in Tionese.

Decent players can do it in Columi.

Bad players need more.

 

Same story for EC HM/NiM and Asation HM. Do you know that EC HM can be done with Rakata without augments ?

OK seriously, why did you switch to EC HM?

Tier 2 Hard Mode Flashpoint require gear with an average rating 136 or better(For example, Columi Gear)

Columi is recommended by the group finder in the game, thus do it with Columi is NOT overgearing it , period. How come do Tier 2 HM with Tier 1 HM's drop is overgearing it? Does it make sense at all?

Sure it's possible to do it with Tionese or even companions, but it's not the majority, and these people mostly already did it better gear before, only try it as challenge. Some people can do some OPS with 4 so should it be FP rather than OPS?

As i recall, the first few times I did HM LI, I had a couple pieces of Tionese on, and I think I was able to replace my leg armor, mainhand and chest within a few runs. This was while still learning the place with the group, as it was a new FP. You assume that everyone has farmed all of the T1 HMs for all their Columi before ever setting foot in HM LI. I did not. Several people that i know have not. I did HM LI yesterday with 2 people that needed items from HM LI, and not just the Rakata. They were decent players that had done the place maybe twice before, and they were rewarded for their skill.

Not everyone, but people mostly need columi to beat it and it's what recommended by the Group Finder. I won't tell a player to try it unless he has mostly columi covered. In a pug if a player has several pieces of tionese then we are mostly going to fail horribly, and it's mostly the truth. I never quit in the beginning but it always happens.

What reward? The reward should match the difficulty, so these players get Rakata rather than columi is not reward?

That is why you fail. - Yoda

 

Learning to respond to mechanics IS great practice. Maybe they're not the exact same mechanics, but you learn to RESPOND to the many "move out of this" mechanics, the interrupt mechanics, and the "do this or die" mechanics.

Then try it with SM, not HM, just like Bioware does not let HM TFB drop campaign except the last boss to let people practice. And how is the "practice" affected if they drop rakata?