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Nerfs for...more fun?


Victros

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From the patch notes, "Grav Round has been rebalanced in order to encourage more active gameplay rotations."

 

So they nerfed commandos to make them have a rotation that's more fun?

 

I've seen this kind of logic since EQ. I guess game developers will never learn.

 

Was there some outcry from the commando community to change their rotation?

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From the patch notes, "Grav Round has been rebalanced in order to encourage more active gameplay rotations."

 

So they nerfed commandos to make them have a rotation that's more fun?

 

I've seen this kind of logic since EQ. I guess game developers will never learn.

 

Was there some outcry from the commando community to change their rotation?

 

I've seen people complain that spamming Grav Round is boring (not to mention it has a horrible sound and pathetic looking animation :):) ).

 

But the outrcry may have been from other classes "I have a complicated rotation and I get the same DPS as some guy who just spams Grav Round over and over!"

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So add some more useful attacks to the game, to broaden the rotation. Don't take the cheap and easy way out by nerfing the spec's bread and butter attack. That just makes the player feel weaker. Edited by Victros
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I've seen people complain that spamming Grav Round is boring (not to mention it has a horrible sound and pathetic looking animation :):) ).

 

But the outrcry may have been from other classes "I have a complicated rotation and I get the same DPS as some guy who just spams Grav Round over and over!"

 

rofl, I toldally agree, the complaint probs wasnt from the commando pop, but from the other classes who are sick of being out classed by grav round/tacer missile spammers lol

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There as apparently an outcry from the members of the PVP community who were mad at Commandos, and Mercenaries, who did nothing but spam grav round in PVP, so I guess this is supposed to encourage us to become a 3-4 button class as opposed to a 1 button class in that one specific arena?

 

Stupid nerf is stupid though because even a commando with a fully robust rotation was using at least half their GCDs on Grav Round because everything in the gunnery tree is tied to it, and after this change they're STILL gonna do that. My thought is that if they wanted to encourage more active rotations give us a reason to actually use Charged Bolts over Grav Round. Everything in the tree is tied to grav round (whereas only about half of it is tied to Charged Bolts) and Grav Round feels like it averages more (because we all like the color yellow more than the color white).

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Watching in PVP because there was no way to judge DPS in PVE I found that a gunny did well to be 2nd or 3rd high damage on the Repub side of the house. DPS Guardians and Vanguards do about 1/3 more damage. If we look at the empire side the gunny even falls farther. Guess what? As of patch 1.2 the discrepancy is even worse.
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There as apparently an outcry from the members of the PVP community who were mad at Commandos, and Mercenaries, who did nothing but spam grav round in PVP, so I guess this is supposed to encourage us to become a 3-4 button class as opposed to a 1 button class in that one specific arena?

 

Stupid nerf is stupid though because even a commando with a fully robust rotation was using at least half their GCDs on Grav Round because everything in the gunnery tree is tied to it, and after this change they're STILL gonna do that. My thought is that if they wanted to encourage more active rotations give us a reason to actually use Charged Bolts over Grav Round. Everything in the tree is tied to grav round (whereas only about half of it is tied to Charged Bolts) and Grav Round feels like it averages more (because we all like the color yellow more than the color white).

 

 

I found it extremely funny that my vanguard and sage got their talent points back but my gunny did not. oh well

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Stupid nerf is stupid though because even a commando with a fully robust rotation was using at least half their GCDs on Grav Round because everything in the gunnery tree is tied to it, and after this change they're STILL gonna do that. My thought is that if they wanted to encourage more active rotations give us a reason to actually use Charged Bolts over Grav Round. Everything in the tree is tied to grav round (whereas only about half of it is tied to Charged Bolts.

 

Yeah, I agree. If they feel it did too much damage, then fine reduce the damage. But if they felt the rotation relied too heavily on Grav Round, they did nothing to address that. There are still too many other benefits tied to Grav Round. I don't see how reducing the damage and increasing the activation time really affects that, since we still want to keep 5 stacks of Gravity Vortex up, five stacks of Charged Barrel, and proc Curtain of Fire.

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From the patch notes, "Grav Round has been rebalanced in order to encourage more active gameplay rotations."

 

So they nerfed commandos to make them have a rotation that's more fun?

 

I've seen this kind of logic since EQ. I guess game developers will never learn.

 

Was there some outcry from the commando community to change their rotation?

 

They didn't say they wanted to make it more fun. They said "more active gameplay rotations". As in, "We don't want people mindlessly spamming two to three buttons while they play."

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From the patch notes, "Grav Round has been rebalanced in order to encourage more active gameplay rotations."

 

So they nerfed commandos to make them have a rotation that's more fun?

 

I've seen this kind of logic since EQ. I guess game developers will never learn.

 

Was there some outcry from the commando community to change their rotation?

 

The most funny thing is that they didnt change our rotation for jack. They just completely gimped its damage. You are still stuck with spamming grav round about 3/4 spells.

 

I believe by a more active rotation they mean a LONGER rotation. Before we could kill most stuff in one rotation (fa-gr-gr-gr-dr-fa-gr-gr-hib), now we need 2 of the same rotation to kill the same target. Clever BW, very clever....

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This just isn't balance and it certainly doesn't change my rotation or ability use. I typically use at least 20 different abilities in a WZ match. Unfortunately a lot of these abilites have a cooldown so I have to fill my time with something. Hmmm, should I use hammershot or grav round, or maybe charged bolts. The answer is simple, am I moving...yes...I fire hammershot...no...grav round. If they don't want commandos using grav round then they should give us more tools. I volunteer to give up blitz...seriously...who uses this in pvp OR pve?
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For clarity, the purpose of the change was to address the issue that Grav Round, on its own, was responsible for too much of your overall DPS. In other words, using totally made up numbers, if all you did was mindlessly spam Grav Round, you could still achieve something like 85% (again, totally made up) of your total damage dealing potential.

 

Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round. :)

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For clarity, the purpose of the change was to address the issue that Grav Round, on its own, was responsible for too much of your overall DPS. In other words, using totally made up numbers, if all you did was mindlessly spam Grav Round, you could still achieve something like 85% (again, totally made up) of your total damage dealing potential.

 

Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round. :)

 

Oh so the thousands of posts today saying players are unsubbing and the claases are crap, pvp is broken and the Operation already cleared on hard mode withing 5 hours of patch is what u consider fun?

 

Please show me who is having fun? I dont think u understand what fun is. Right now everyone is about as angry as they can be.

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For clarity, the purpose of the change was to address the issue that Grav Round, on its own, was responsible for too much of your overall DPS. In other words, using totally made up numbers, if all you did was mindlessly spam Grav Round, you could still achieve something like 85% (again, totally made up) of your total damage dealing potential.

 

Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round. :)

 

For clarity...

 

YOU have tied in every proc we get TO Grav Round. If you were truly trying to get us to spam the ONE ability that is responsible for added DPS, added defense, debuffs, you COULD have simply tied the numerous procs that Grav Rounds grants to something like Hammer Shot.

 

This is COMPLETELY your doing. This isn't new...this isn't even a shock dude...we all knew in Beta that Grav Round was the one MUST GET skill for Commandos. It certainly isn't OUR fault you've tied so much to this one flippin skill.

 

Seriously...do ANY of you play a gunnery Commando? Please explain how giving us one skill that does so much, could have possibly been overlooked or how it being like the ONLY valuable skill we had escaped your sights?! Remove all the procs from it, tie them to Hammer Shot and you'll see a completely new game.

 

It's like you really don't even understand WHY it was 85% of our damage...

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For clarity, the purpose of the change was to address the issue that Grav Round, on its own, was responsible for too much of your overall DPS. In other words, using totally made up numbers, if all you did was mindlessly spam Grav Round, you could still achieve something like 85% (again, totally made up) of your total damage dealing potential.

 

Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round. :)

 

What is the logic behind the reduction in survivability? A targeted DPS merc already had low survivability in pvp (excluding rampball) pre-1.2.

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For clarity, the purpose of the change was to address the issue that Grav Round, on its own, was responsible for too much of your overall DPS. In other words, using totally made up numbers, if all you did was mindlessly spam Grav Round, you could still achieve something like 85% (again, totally made up) of your total damage dealing potential.

 

Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round. :)

 

 

Grav Round places an armor debuff on target.

 

Grav round charges barels for higher High Impact Bolt damage.

 

Grav Round increases Commando's survavibility by adding shield stack.

 

Grav Round increases Demolition Round damage by adding gravity vortexes.

 

Grav Round procs Curtain of Fire.

 

It has no cooldown.

 

It is a tech ability so it bypasses defenses.

 

It's relatively cheap.

 

It has relatively short cast time.

 

 

 

 

With all respect, even if you cut Grav Round damage by half, people would still spam it due to numerous buffs it provides.

Edited by NeverRose
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With all respect, even if you cut Grav Round damage by half, people would still spam it due to numerous buffs it provides.

That is correct. However, I'll repeat, the reduction in Grav Round damage was made to address how much damage Grav Round contributes to your total rotation - not to address how many times you press the Grav Round button. Players have run off with the idea that we're trying to eliminate Grav Round spamming, which is not the case. My goal has been to eliminate how effective Grav Round spamming is if it's all you do.

 

An effective Gunnery rotation still utilizes Grav Round as both a "build up" ability and a "resource dump" ability. That hasn't changed, nor was it my goal to change that. What has changed is that competitive DPS now comes from utilizing all of your key rotational abilities instead of leaning so very heavily on just Grav Round. I hope that's more clear now.

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I don't understand how anyone can think that a damage nerf to grav round changes how often it is used.

 

You want people to use grav round less? Lower the cooldown on Demolition Round. Or High Impact Bolt. Or full auto (or make it a 100% chance to proc CoF). After the initial 3 strikes it's literally the last thing we want to cast (other than hammershot). People use Grav Round so much because there is no choice but to do so. The new demolition round hits for crazy amounts of damage; if it had a 12 or 9 second cooldown no one would care if you cut grav round's damage even more. The CoF buff was nice... but not nearly enough; You're still going to need 2-3 grav rounds against every 1 full auto.

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Did EV tonight. Looks like Grav round is accounting for a solid 41% of my damage.

 

 

I love that our procs are tied to high damage abilities. What you should do is spread the love around. Put Charged Barrel on Full Auto or Charged Bolts or both, buff Sticky Grenade.

 

 

To you the issue may be that you could hit 85% of your damage just spamming grav round. It doesn't change the fact that EVERYTHING is tied to it, so rotations for commandos doing it right aren't gonna change and all we've experienced is a nerf.

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What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

Well, considering the 15 sec CD on demoround and gravround being spammable, and you STILL have to spam it 4-5 times in an average rotation, the DpS loss is pretty severe. Add in that grav round also crits 15% more than other abilities and the DpS loss is horrendous.

 

As someone suggested, put demoround on 6-7 sec CD and it would be more balanced out.

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For clarity, the purpose of the change was to address the issue that Grav Round, on its own, was responsible for too much of your overall DPS. In other words, using totally made up numbers, if all you did was mindlessly spam Grav Round, you could still achieve something like 85% (again, totally made up) of your total damage dealing potential.

 

Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round. :)

 

We didn't use Grav Round because it had the highest damage, we used it because we HAD to, solely because of what it gives aside from damage. Everything is built around spamming that ability. Just because you lowered the damage doesn't change our rotation in the slightest, it just nerfed our overall DPS which did NOT need to happen.

 

I will admit that our rotation needs help. Our DPS though was FINE. But then change the way grav round works! Don't just nerf the damage of it, that does nothing! Have the multiple buffs and procs it provides be spread across other abilities, THEN we might actually change up our rotation.

 

 

I was actually really looking forward to the changes to the Trooper when I first heard about it. What I was told was that our damage would remain roughly the same but our rotation would be changed up to be more dynamic. The EXACT OPPOSITE has occurred. Looks like I'm shelving my Commando for awhile.

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For clarity, the purpose of the change was to address the issue that Grav Round, on its own, was responsible for too much of your overall DPS. In other words, using totally made up numbers, if all you did was mindlessly spam Grav Round, you could still achieve something like 85% (again, totally made up) of your total damage dealing potential.

 

Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round. :)

 

I read stuff like this and it drives my absolutely crazy at how Bioware is out of touch with classes. They keep talking about metrics this and metrics that...well I for one think that they need to step away from the metrics and actually PLAY the game. The entire class is centered around grav round. Every single benefit gained in combat with a Trooper is based around Grav round. So let me get this straight, because you nerfed it, I'm suppose to not use it as much? I'm suppose to give up charged barrel? I'm suppose to give armor penetration? I'm suppose to give up damage boost to demo round? You do realize the damage buff to the SKILL YOUR BUFFED and directly tied to the SKILL YOU NERFED????? Does that make sense??

 

Fail logic is fail.

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So the damage distribution on Gunnery abilities is not in a good place. Prior to 1.2 Bioware (and non-commandos apparently) weren't happy with it, and some commandos who hated playing against players who actually interrupted hated it a bit too. Now in 1.2 Commandos are extremely unhappy with it, and players eating 7k demorounds are probably not very happy with it either.

 

It sounds like there needs to be some more redistribution.

 

 

I will say one thing though: please be VERY careful with changes, because if there's one thing I absolutely LOVE about Gunnery, it's the ammo management. Proccing into the 3 second cast (less ammo usage), combined with crit being desirable for ammo management (and the set bonus helping) really feels like it works out well. If you prioritize the right abilities you only have to hammershot a few times in between reserve powercell and recharge cells.

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