The good healers I know won't go into group finder because they're all tired of being scapegoats for suck.

 

The healers I know aren't the whiny type. but I thought things couldn't be all that bad. I started going in group finder instead of running with friends all the time. Both Pub and Imp side, I never voted to kick a healer -- and saw them get kicked repeatedly. And I'm the tank. If the healer was bad, I was the first to know it.

 

All this kicking does is discourage healers while masking real skills problems with tanks and DPS. And healers are a key bottleneck role for forming balanced groups. You can only have as many groups as you have healers. Group Finder is packed with DPS.

 

I've never waited more than 10 minutes in group finder as a tank. Often a group pops as soon as I click the que. I've never waited less than 20 minutes as a DPS, and sometimes for an hour or even more. The rate at which group finder pops is directly tied to the supply of tanks and healers.

 

Yeah, there are some bad healers out there. I had to tell one guy in a hard-mode flash point what a "cleanse" was and what the ability was called for his character. But once I told him where it was -- and stepped backwards from the droid in Hammer Station every time I needed a cleanse -- everything was OK. By the end of the FP, he was doing all right. A little knowledge and encouragement worked.

 

So if I can get through a hard mode with a healer who doesn't even know what his cleanse is, what's your excuse?

 

To further test how bad this problem is, I got a healer of my own I hadn't played in a while. After running some ops and flash points with friends to scrape the rust off my skills, I went in group finder.

 

It was weird. I was either the healer for good groups, which didn't need much in the way of heals, or fell in with bad groups where a god of healing could make little difference. Very few groups were between those two extremes.

 

The worst case was one in which the tank -- I'm not trying to be mean, just accurate -- couldn't hold aggro if it had a handle tied to a rope. I never spent as much time and energy healing myself. I turned in what I regard as the virtuoso healing performance of my life, but we wiped. It was also perfectly, even blatantly, obvious to anybody looking what the problem was.

 

Guess who got kicked.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Thompsons

didnt you know if you dont use kolto injection on all 8 players in the raid at the same time you are bad??????????

I'm with you there. I'm a DPS at heart but I tend to heal or tank at endgame for faster queues.

The mark of doom on a group is a bad tank, one who doesn't understand threat multipliers, opens fights with taunts, and doesn't AoE. I tend to be okay with bad tanks when I'm healing as my Commando because he's my best-geared toon and because he's got heavy armor, but Scoundrel healing for a bad tank usually means that I get most of the aggro and I'm stuck praying that my DPS are smart and durable enough to peel for me.

 

Bad tanks and bad healers can both wreck groups, but there are a lot more bad tanks out there in groupfinder. I've been lucky most of the time, though, in that I usually end up with a competent DPS or two who I can complain about the tank to in /whisper.

No point expecting a pug to think the same way you do. They could be totally oblivious to everything or a 3m premade from a raiding guild.

 

Forget about it and carry on. A 3m premade who knows what they're doing could just as easily kick you because they want their own 4th. Deserving a kick doesn't come into it most of the time.

I saw runs where there were no tanks at all on DF and DP group finder last week. DPS had queued as tanks. At least the tanks didn't suck.

I main a healer who's overgeared by quite a bit for all FPs, so I don't really run into many problems. Usually it's mechanics, group not sticking together, etc.

 

My alt is also a healer who's about in the right gear for top lvl 50 stuff. It's often trickier healing in FPs, as I don't have as much gear and I suck at playing Commando healers most of the time. I've done a few 50 HMs with her though.

 

I'm lvling a tank as well. When I hit 55 and start doing tricky FPs, I'll try and figure what the problem is if there is any...

 

(little note: I don't actually have a high lvl DPS yet (as I said I have two healers and a tank), but my next classes to level are a Sentinel and Sniper, so I guess that'll stop.)

So if I can get through a hard mode with a healer who doesn't even know what his cleanse is, what's your excuse?

In my experience, a good tank can make up for a bad healer, a good healer can make up for a bad tank, and two good dps'es can make up for a bad healer / bad tank combination.

didnt you know if you dont use kolto injection on all 8 players in the raid at the same time you are bad?

 

I wish that was as funny as it should be.

 

 

Bad tanks and bad healers can both wreck groups, but there are a lot more bad tanks out there in group finder.

 

Sadly, I have to strongly agree. Group finder's need for more tanks makes things worse. We are in heavy demand -- so a tank who doesn't know his rotation can find a group right away while an outstanding DPS has to wait in line.

 

The tank won't catch the blame for failure because:

 

1. Not enough people are willing to kick a tank and then wait another 20 minutes in group finder, and

2. Keeping people alive is the healer's job. If I die, well, it can't be because I suck. It must be the healer's fault. A bad DPS can soak up too much in heals and then blame then healer for a wipe.

 

Now word seems to be getting around that if you want to get a group, be a tank. Well, claim to be one anyway.

 

Forget about it and carry on. .... Deserving a kick doesn't come into it most of the time.

 

Hey, I'm a tank. I never get kicked.

 

I saw runs where there were no tanks at all on DF and DP group finder last week. DPS had queued as tanks. At least the tanks didn't suck.

 

Hey, at least they could hold aggro. Better a good DPS winging it as a tank than a bad tank, agreed. But see previous remarks about the tank shortage and people becoming aware that the way to get a group is to que as a tank.

 

In my experience, a good tank can make up for a bad healer, a good healer can make up for a bad tank, and two good dps'es can make up for a bad healer / bad tank combination.

 

Quite agree -- because good players look to see what's happening and adapt. Good players are never the problem.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Thompsons

I've not really seen people kicked (except for totally AFK ones) but only yesterday there was some "blame the healer". I got a DPS spot for a FP in progress, Czerka labs FP with a big robot at the bottom of a stairwell. The ranged who was whining about the heals was actually totally clueless. It seems he tried to stay on the balcony above to avoid any mechanics, but despite being oneshotted several times as the fight started he didn't admit doing wrong. He finally left since we didn't "get a better healer". A replacement came in and we oneshotted the rest of the place with no problems.

I can echo a majority of the sentiment in this thread. I am a DPS at heart, love playing my geared out sniper. But as my guild found itself constantly having to outsource for healers and tanks, I decided to roll one of each and begin learning. For me, healing isn't as much fun, and honestly wasn't necessarily more difficult, just a different beast. Watching health bars, cleanses, etc. My tank on the other hand was a great fun. And now on most nights, I'm asked to please go get my tank so we can go do something as a guild or group of friends. My sniper is mostly gathering dust unless I take him out soloing.

 

I agree that bad healers/tanks can make or break a group. As a tank, if I have a knucklehead DPS in my group that just will not play his role, I'll let him tank for a while. I'll usually shoot the healer a whisper "Let him die if he wants to tank" and it generally self-corrects And if that DPS rage quits, I just pull out HK and we 3.5-man the rest of the FP. HK doesn't complain.

I usually main a healer, but I do have a tank I run on occasion. I refuse to tank random GF.. just won't do it without a guild buddy.

 

Not worth the time nor the headache. Most the time stupid button smashing dps pull before the team is even at the boss and others the healer is either "great" or "no idea what a cleanse is" from what I've seen. Most the time I see new healers struggle to heal stupid moves by dps and I usually say something like "Hey you like to be healed? How about you let me pull the boss this time or maybe you can wait 5 seconds for everyone to get force/energy back.."

 

I think everyone should play every role to see what is needed to perform, but sadly that won't happen.

Edited September 2, 2014 by dscount

in these conquest days i think i didn't pull a single trash or boss in all the fp i've tanked, all were rushing like crazy.

honestly i didn't get upset..50 hm are tacticals..you don't need heals..and it's stupid easy to regain aggro, even from multiple mobs and with 2 dps derping...chain pulling is fun, actually the only way to stand a FP which usually is boring, both healing and tanking..also bad tanking can be managed..just be a good healer..you can facetank most of the fights if dps use their cds or if you let one die( i let the tank die in those cases) and same while dpsing you can facetank for a while if the other dps can focus on a kill order..damage goes down with mobs, cc, mezz.

obviously the next level of badness is unfixable: tank not holding a boss( single target) or healer not keeping up a tank or himself

I think everyone should play every role to see what is needed to perform, but sadly that won't happen.

 

I actually did that with another MMO where, around level 15 or so, you are forced into party-based dungeons to move on with the story. While knowing the basics behind what goes into a healer or a tank helped somewhat when doing it first as a DPS, playing those other roles helped even more to see what classes could do which things to make life easier on the group.

 

Some of this stuff is a no-brainer - let the tank go first, only go for it when everyone's at tippy-top shape, etc. Some of the other aspects, it almost takes a seasoned hand - or at least someone with a brain between their ears - to look at what their class can do and find a way to make that work in a team setting. Sentinels are DPS guys, right? They're supposed to do damage. However, wouldn't it make things easier for the group if, say, he waited a second or two to hop into the fight and instead stunned that big-*** droid over there first? One less target hammering the tank, one less immediate threat to deal with, one less enemy you need to worry about burning down quick, one less enemy for the healer to heal overtop of. Sure, your flat-out DPS number might be down a bit considering you essentially did no damage for those few seconds you need to fire off that Droid stun, but your overall contribution to the group is something that can't really be measured with a number, as you've taken one enemy completely out of the fight for at least a minute - two if, for whatever reason, you need to fire it off a second time.

I rolled a tank and healer precisely because I wanted those perspectives. I normally run DPS.

 

I now understand why there is a dearth of tanks, especially in flashpoints. The abuse they take from clueless DPS is amazing. >50% of DPS in flashpoints refuse to respect the role of the tank, constantly leap into the fight first and draw aggro from the tank. The healer spends all his time healing the DPS. Then the DPS complain the tank is lousy because he hasn't guarded the healer and "isn't playing his role." Honestly, a new tank CANNOT BECOME BETTER when the DPS don't play their role.

 

Last night as a tank I ran into an even rarer occurrence: a clueless healer who insisted on jumping into each fight before the tank or even the DPS. That was even more fun...

. As a tank, if I have a knucklehead DPS in my group that just will not play his role, I'll let him tank for a while. I'll usually shoot the healer a whisper "Let him die if he wants to tank" and it generally self-corrects And if that DPS rage quits, I just pull out HK and we 3.5-man the rest of the FP. HK doesn't complain.

 

This and so much this.. I go pretty fast and will pull the next pack as soon as first pack is dead as long as healer's resrouces seem OK or I have a couple CD's up so I rush through most in FPs because I consider them to be stupidly easy and some guy usually marauders... will still decide to engage before me inn the rare occasion where I stop to give the healer a breather or my rocket boots were just on CD or some ****.

 

I have never come across a Healer than had to be kicked in FP's Even on Lost Island runs it's usually the DPS who have no clue. 3 tries on Savrak at lvls 50-53 and they still don't get underneath his feet.

I don't know about the other servers but here on the Harbinger, there are far less bad healers than bad tanks and usually you have to do a pretty bad job as a tank to get kicked. Like real bad. As someone else mentioned, the reason most often time tanks don't get as kicked fast as other roles is because there's shortage of them (again, this is my observation based as a healer on the Harbinger). Heck some of us won't even speak up so long as we can through the fp because we have no idea how the tank will take the suggestions, even if said suggestions are purely constructive without any bashing (and trust me on this, I've seen tanks quit for the slightest bit of a peep).

 

 

Anyhoo, I've met a lot of healers on my server and very very few of them will actually derp. Like the OP mentioned, sometimes they just don't know or forget about an important skill like cleanse and just need a reminder. I can truly say that the bad healers out there are not actually bad due to skill but rather due to a sense of entitlement or being extremely nit-picky. Healers of such category are:

 

-The healer that makes dps his/her priority

-The healer that will not budge one foot if guard isn't put on him/her

-The healer who goes bat**** insane if he/she takes an iota of damage (and I mean, only once in a blue moon during the fp)

-The healer who won't heal anyone else but the tank because he/she thinks dps took aggro on purpose

-The healer who complains that the tank takes too much damage (despite being geared to the teeth and actually barely taking damage at all)

 

As you can see, most of this list falls under healer either being utterly nit-picky, inflexible or downright controlling.

-The healer that makes dps his/her priority

 

Outside of NiM content that is what you do 80% of the time if group is semi-competent..... That is why there are so few really good NiM capable healers - they never get the practise that DPS and tanks get.

flashpoints have too short pulls to drain a healer's resources..it's hard to spot if they are bad..just chain pulling or if there's something to cleance..same for dps..there are no dps checks and they can just dish out their big numbers without knowing any rotation or positioning or without avoiding pain on the ground..so it's left only the tank.. if he's not good enough to hold aggro from multiple mobs, that will expose the lacking of heals or dps..or the lack of general skills like using def cds or changing speed in heals or dps,decide which mobs need to die( mercenaries in kaon) and eventually one player will die and blame someone..while the tank holds and healer heals the tank, the only one taking damage, any group can complete a flashpoint..guess why they nerfed tacticals and not the 55hm flashpoints even if the complaining at release was massive..

If the tank is really bad it's sometimes easier to kill or cc mobs that go for you as a healer then to heal yourself while waiting for DPS and tank to get to them.

And you are right - FP fights are short enough that you can sacrifice your resources as a healer and heal through stupid. I once tried to keep a guy standing under a rocket in Cademimu up - he lived for a while surprisingly!

Outside of NiM content that is what you do 80% of the time if group is semi-competent..... That is why there are so few really good NiM capable healers - they never get the practise that DPS and tanks get.

 

After 2.10 you dont even need good healers at all for "NiM" content xD

Nightmare buff should have been rewrited with this:

 

- Healers have only X time to do this stuff at intended difficulty after that gg

Outside of NiM content that is what you do 80% of the time if group is semi-competent..... That is why there are so few really good NiM capable healers - they never get the practise that DPS and tanks get.

 

Oh of course, definitely. To be a bit more specific by what I wrote, I'm talking about those healers who basically make healing an afterthought. Doesn't matter if the group is being hit hard and we could use some regenerative goodness before we keel over -- healer decides its far more important to kill stuff first rather than make sure were at a better and more reasonable health percentage and then resume dps. You know, the ones that leaves us at 30-40% health because they must absolutely make sure they slay the trash mob they've been working on so hard before finally deciding we're worth saving.

Edited September 3, 2014 by ValeGreiger

This sort of nonsense is why people like me dislike groupfinders on principal.

 

Either the content is easy enough that the lowest commmon denominator can't ruin it for everyone or people start spewing vitriol because random strangers do not play well in groups. It's not just healers that get flack and no real practice by the way. DPS can't thrive when there's never a meaningful enrage and tanks...well I've yet to see an MMO successfully teach tanking through play.

 

Hell I'm surprised you lot even get raids on GF. On TOFN it seems anyway that all that happens is people form an 8m pug same as always then queue together.

Edited September 3, 2014 by CaptainApop

- Healers have only X time to do this stuff at intended difficulty after that gg

 

16-man NiM TFB can be interesting to heal at times still. Same as S&V Warlords. But in general you are right of course. DF has been nerfed to oblivion and probably same will happen to DP. Which frustrates me even more as I still haven't killed council and had very limited tries on it. If it happens this week it will be way overdue.

It's not just healers that get flack and no real practice by the way. DPS can't thrive when there's never a meaningful enrage and tanks...well I've yet to see an MMO successfully teach tanking through play.

 

On my DPS characters I can still try to maximise the damage, avoid mechanics and stuff even in SM or HM. As tank I can still do my job right. As a healer in SM or HM content only thing I can usually do is try to break 1k DPS.

Oh of course, definitely. To be a bit more specific by what I wrote, I'm talking about those healers who basically make healing an afterthought. Doesn't matter if the group is being hit hard and we could use some regenerative goodness before we keel over -- healer decides its far more important to kill stuff first rather than make sure were at a better and more reasonable health percentage and then resume dps. You know, the ones that leaves us at 30-40% health because they must absolutely make sure they slay the trash mob they've been working on so hard before finally deciding we're worth saving.

 

It's kinda easy to be this type of bad healer in a FP or SM or even HM operation as suually there is very little damage outgoing, so you try to work around your damage skills that are all on cooldown and have something to do. On my healing Sorc I even run to bossess and started to smack them with saber strike quite a few times out of boredom And I'm by no means expert healer - it's my tertiary role after tank and DPS. While you are doing all that it's easy to miss that somebodies health dropped at last and you need to cast two, three heals

 

My personal feeling is in PVE it would be optimal to have way more damage outgoing with bigger healthbars and healing being game of efficiency and resource management not who has faster reflexes or smaller lag (like it's often in NiM) . But I guess this wouldn't be viable for PVP so probably can't happen.