Yes, they're still Sith.

They're just pragmatic and more patient instead of ruthless and hungry for power.

a sith wouldn´t be lightside i suppose, but the light side/dark side options in SWTOR are poor imo.

sometime the light side option makes more sense from a dark side point of wiev. Ex. why would you kill somebody if you could send him somewhere to be interogated. Many mindless kill options where we kill people we dont know just for dark side points. Why ? It´s not that we hate all people.

As trooper in the starting area get lightside points to give medicin to a refuge and dark side to give it to our fellow troopers. But if the troopers die who will defend the refuge´s. Light side/dark side options aren´t as simple as this game makes it

this is really quite simple when you think about it. think of both the edi order and the sith as what they really are, a religious cult/organization. think of any of todays religions, if you stop following the teaching of your religion and start following the teaching of another, then you would stop calling yourself a follower of the first religion and start calling yourself a follower of your new religion. your old religion would still consider you a part of their religion, and your new religion would not consider you a part of theirs if you didn't claim to be a part of it.

 

its really that simple,

 

*snip!*

 

 

No, it's really not that simple. Keleth-Ur is still considered a sith lord. (He's the heretic with the hologram in the sith temple on DK.) The sith don't call him the 'jedi Keleth-Ur', they call him the heretic sith lord. They are even aware of the general nature of his heresies, but still recognize him as sith.

 

As far as the religion analogy, it doesn't hold up. Baptists will tell you they are christians. So will lutherans. As will episcopalians. And so will those small churches full of snake-handlers. Most of these churches still recognize the others as 'christian' (misguided perhaps, but still christian). That's why there are no calls for crusades between these denominations. *wink*

 

Similarly, Revanites in game refer to Revan as 'darth Revan'. I bet if you asked a random sampling of revanites, several would say, ''oh yeah, we're still sith... just a different kind of sith''. These revanite heretics still access sith powers. At least one (the girl that sends you after revan's mask), is clearly dark-side.

 

So you can SAY it's ''really that simple'' but clearly, it's not. In my opinion (no more or less 'right' than anyone else's) sith are sith as long as they beleive they are sith and can demonstrate a mastery of sith force techniques.

No, it's really not that simple. Keleth-Ur is still considered a sith lord. (He's the heretic with the hologram in the sith temple on DK.) The sith don't call him the 'jedi Keleth-Ur', they call him the heretic sith lord. They are even aware of the general nature of his heresies, but still recognize him as sith.

 

As far as the religion analogy, it doesn't hold up. Baptists will tell you they are christians. So will lutherans. As will episcopalians. And so will those small churches full of snake-handlers. Most of these churches still recognize the others as 'christian' (misguided perhaps, but still christian). That's why there are no calls for crusades between these denominations. *wink*

 

.

 

well i do tend to ramble alot:D however you seem to have won my argument for me while trying to prove me wrong.

 

what is a heretic, and more importantly what happened to heretics?

 

oxford tells us that a heretic is

 

Definition of heretic

noun

a person believing in or practising religious heresy.

a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.

 

you have to realize that although star wars seems like a much more advanced civilization than our own. in many ways its not. its like something directly out of the dark ages. i'm sure alot of this is because barbarians are much more exciting ppl to write about. spacers fending off pirates, warrior monks, evil cultists, organized crime syndicates as powerful as the ruling governments and the 2 largest super powers in what seems to be a never ending war.

 

so if we look back to history. what would happen to a heretic? they wouldn't live long. and the lord you are referring to, well hes dead. and i think the reason he is still referred to as a lord, is damage control. to strip him of his title will bring up questions, such as "what did he do wrong" much better to let him and his secret go the grave together and hope no1 ever hears of the truth

 

as for my religous analogies, you are right in todays world they might not hold up very well. although there is still alot of religious resentment between some faiths, but if again you go back to barbarian times my analogy works fine. if you didn't practice the right kind of religion the right way you were considered a heretic and killed.

 

in star wars a light side sith would end up in the same place as Keleth-Ur

Imperial Knights..anyone?

I think your still sith in a way, (a slight spoiler alert about LS jaesa) On your first convo she asks about her role as an apprentice and you have the choice to tell her to pretend about the darkside. Then she/ you(cant remember) will say that the repubic has been hammering away from the outside when, you will be able to take it down from the inside.

in star wars a light side sith would end up in the same place as Keleth-Ur

 

Yes. Which makes him a dead, heretic and (in the eyes of the others) weak Sith, but still a Sith

They certainly are not masters of the dark side of the force.

as some1 else has pointed out, if not in this thread, then in another.

 

lightside/darkside choices in this game are silly at best. in a star wars story just because a sith decided to let some1 live rather than kill them, does not amount to then turning to the light, a sith would weigh up a situation, and if there was more to be gained by leaving some1 alive, then that is what they would do.

as some1 else has pointed out, if not in this thread, then in another.

 

lightside/darkside choices in this game are silly at best. in a star wars story just because a sith decided to let some1 live rather than kill them, does not amount to then turning to the light, a sith would weigh up a situation, and if there was more to be gained by leaving some1 alive, then that is what they would do.

 

Light/Dark choices for Sith characters remind me more of the ones from KoTOR.

Where DS choices always seemed to have you come across as psychotic.

Light/Dark choices for Sith characters remind me more of the ones from KoTOR.

Where DS choices always seemed to have you come across as psychotic.

 

Your referring to the companions right?

 

Every time I kill a Guy for DS points, Vette looses her grip. I have to shock her.

Imperial Knights..anyone?

 

If you're referring to post FotJ Imperial Knights, they were not Sith, in fact they had a license to bump of their own Emperor/Empress if he/she fell to the darkside, if they had to.

 

The Imperial Knights under Emperor Fel's leadership were at worst grey Jedi, but would probably classify as lightside for the most part.

 

You're confusing Krayt's Sith Empire, with Fel's Empire.

well, my sorcerer is lightside and still a sith. she hates the sith and all they stand for. she would defect to the jedi if they wouldnt kill her for all shes done. but shes almost certain they would(not all jedi in this game are lightside, just as not all sith are darkside). so she deals with the sith. she doesnt come out and say she hates the sith in a public broadcast or anything, but she doesnt hide it either, because so what if someone finds out and doesnt like it? she can take em.

The conversation in this thread is actually ironic, considering this is the same conversation that the Jedi and Sith would be talking among themselves as to just who is really a part of their belief system and just who follows it "correctly." This topic is the prime example and answer to exactly how it would be within those two organizations.

 

There is no black and white when it comes to who is on what side. People are diverse and there will always be differing opinions and morality. You will never find (within any belief, whether religious, scientific, economical, political, or other) two people who feel identically about all issues regarding their organization. There will be the outspoken few who define their personal belief as being the ideal version of their belief and try to hold everyone else to it, judging those who don't fall under their law, but that doesn't make it so.

 

The person who said to look at today's religions as example were right. The example of Catholics vs. Baptists vs. Lutherans is a bad one though since the latter two are recent branches of the former; it's more like Catholics vs. Judaism vs. Muslim. Their roots go back even further in time, and even though some of the teachings originate from the same religious figures and entities, they do not recognize each other as being a part of the same whole. You can still see this in recent history as well. Jehovah's Witnesses for example, use the same Bible, the same teachings, and are nearly identical to other Christian religions, and yet are not accepted as Christians; yet the Mormon religion which, although also using the Bible, also teach out of an entirely different book than Christians, is yet just now being embraced as Christian primarily because of political reasons.

 

So this entire thread is the answer itself: there is no one correct answer, because there always will be differing opinions, not just from us on the outside of lore, but from those inside it as well.

There is no light side sith lol. Just game mecanics.

As anyone ever tought about the fact that WE as Humans are living pretty much the Sith way emotionally, but we just dont do it to hurt others like actual Sith?

Dark side Sith are so emo and "edgy", I'll stick with my awesome light side Sith.

I follow the idea of Jacen Solo. A true Sith does not have to be pompous, cruel, or even evil to use the dark side. The dark side is the utilization of one's emotions, but not necessarily one's inner evil. Jacen tried, failed, but tried, to be a non evil sith, to direct his anger, fear, passion, and love towards reaching his goals while still remaining a servant of the greater good. A light side sith still uses the dark side, unleashes their emotions, but doesn't let themselves be twisted and controlled by their power. The bane of the sith has always been that they become slaves to the immense power they wield. Even the dark emperor Lord Vitiate suffers constant physical pain in order to maintain his immortality. He is a crippled god. In the end, it is only a light sith that can utilize the raw power of the dark side and the focus of the light to both end the jedi and bring the everlasting peace and order of the empire.

Allow me to wax philosophical here for a bit:

 

The Sith order first came into existence because Jedi doctrine is fundamentally broken: not because it focuses on being charitable and virtuous, but because it conceives of vast portions of the psyche as dark and forbidden, represses them - and thus creates the very monsters that it fears.

 

Repression does not lead to serenity and enlightenment - it just fosters a repressed shadow-self that eventually manifests in the form of the "dark side".

 

This is essentially what the Sith order is: a bunch of Jedis who have inverted their original teachings, embraced their suppressed feelings, and went "dark". (Remember, the sith order was funded by dark Jedi who were exiled and subjugated the sith-species.) But they are still caught in the same disastrous dichotomy, only on the other extreme end of the spectrum. They haven't broken free of the mental prison erected by Jedi lore - they still embrace it.

 

In short: a Jedi is just a sith waiting to happen. And a sith is just a Jedi who's gone over the top.

As such, "light-sided" sith are basically the ones who have finally got it: they do not repress their emotions any longer, but neither do they demonize them, becoming monsters. Instead, they follow the Twi'lek approach of "riding the heat storm" - neither light nor dark, but both, reconciled.

 

The fundamental truth that neither the Jedi nor the Sith can look in the eye is this: there is no dark side. Whatever evil there is in the Force is entirely of our own creation, born of our own way of thinking about it.

Not really because they are going against the sith teachings

i think that if yo play as a "darkside" jedi you are more like a netural side or a grey jedi while lightside is a classic jedi thing

 

while in sith how i see it is beinf a crazy sadistic psycopath or not

It's not a black and white issue. When I rolled my Sith warrior I did not take the chance to wipe a lot of people, instead taking the 'light' option of sending them to the Dark Council for interrogation, when it may have been kinder, and more lightside, so kill them there and then. Others however, were summarily executed because I felt it would be more 'Sith' to do so.

 

Being a Sith is not about crushing people just because you can. The Sith code teaches that unless your victory proves you to be more powerful than the vanquished, then it is not a true victory. To jettison people from an airlock without them ever being aware of your presence would be a good example of this. It would be a darkside action, but not worthy of the Sith, and contrary to the Sith code.

 

Crushing insects because you can is...beneath a true Sith.

 

It is also possible to be a darkside force user but not be a Sith. You see this in game a lot, poor unfortunates being jettisoned from airlocks for example. Lots of darkside toons thinking it makes them Sith. "judder"

 

I roll my Sith and follow the Sith code, and they end up more light than dark, but I frequently take many darkside options because it is Sith to do so.

 

As Yuthara Ban described the Sith code- "Simple words, yet easily misunderstood". I think the Sith code is best described here-

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Code_of_the_Sith

One thing that a lot of people confuse about the Sith Code is that it never expressly says that Hate, Cruelty and Anger are required to be a Sith. Passion encompasses a lot of emotions, including feelings of love and affection, the thing is, the people that matter in the Sith hierarchy (Lords, Darths, Emperors) all use the aforementioned hate, anger and cruelty.

 

Now, the Sith Code is fairly ambiguous (technically, the Peace thing is the only part that could be considered evil, but a lack of peace does not necessarily mean galaxy spanning war), but the Sith philosophy is based around the strong ruling over the weak, and only the powerful surviving. Its very Animallistic in that only the strong survive, and the weak will only be good enough for slavery or servitude.

 

So, to answer your question, you do not have to be Dark sided to follow the Code of the Sith, but you do to live by the philosophy of the strong dominating the weak.

 

These people get the idea. They truly understand the Sith Code and how it works.

 

Of course, the real problem here is that there is always an assigned 'good or evil' facet to each action. As far as I can tell, no actions in the game are neutral, they are either Light sided or Dark Sided. To be frank, this is probably one of the few things in the game that annoys me. Specifically because its unrealistic.

 

For example: The Sith Warrior story, you can be merciful and spare the Jedi Knight on Balmorra. Yet you know that doing so means she is highly likely to be tortured and interrogated (and THEN probably die) And yet, the action is considered light side, when depending on who you ask killing her could be considered a light sided action, as it spares her from the suffering that would be inflicted upon her.

 

I have always, and always shall, hate the system of absolutes that is considered canon in the SW universe when it comes to the Jedi and Sith.

 

ok lets look at this from another angle. can any1 name a lightside sith, that remained part of the empire and didn't turn into a jedi,

 

i'm thinking opening an puppy orphanage would be a good example (ok maybe that is extreme) but seriously is there examples of light side sith?

 

I recall their being a Sith Lord that was part of the Rule of Two who didn't actually go out and do anything dark-sided or evil, he was merely a scholar of some sort.

 

personaly i think the light side/ dark side is just bioware being star warsy with the allignment system. Think of them more as different actions in a given situation (eg letting the slaves suffer for weeks versus killing them out right) both still pretty evil and none are particularly light. Making dark side choices as a jedi doesnt mean following the dark side it's just you feel you should take more aggressive action or be stronger to protect the republic. same as light sith. Malgus is sith but he believes that tolerence breeds strength. sparing some one who could help you get stronger vs killing them to be "sith". You're still a sith you just do things differently. Ultimately you strive for power regardless of your choices.

 

Exactly! Its not so much that your being "lightsided" so much as your using a different method to achieve power and strength.

2. On Dromund Kaas: You find the teachings of a light side Sith (his holocron) in the Dark Temple.

 

I knew there was something of an example somewhere!!

 

 

I think it's telling that at one point in KotOR II, Carth - I think it's Carth, might have been Atton - talks about how it was called the Jedi Civil War because, for your average non-Force user, the Jedi and the Sith are basically two sides of the same coin. Catholics and Protestants, if you will.

 

It's Atton, I think, though someone else in KOTOR I might have said something similar.

No, Siths as race weren't strong in dark side of the force. They were strong simply in the force and exile Dark Jedies teach them how to use force - it's dark side.

 

I may believe a Pureblood Sith can be LS, but you sir are incorrect here. The Sith species were actually highly affluent in the Dark Side, thrived on it in fact. Granted, as the wookiepedia page for the Sith states, that doesn't mean the PB Sith were evil horrible pyschopaths.

 

a sith wouldn´t be lightside i suppose, but the light side/dark side options in SWTOR are poor imo.

sometime the light side option makes more sense from a dark side point of wiev. Ex. why would you kill somebody if you could send him somewhere to be interogated. Many mindless kill options where we kill people we dont know just for dark side points. Why ? It´s not that we hate all people.

As trooper in the starting area get lightside points to give medicin to a refuge and dark side to give it to our fellow troopers. But if the troopers die who will defend the refuge´s. Light side/dark side options aren´t as simple as this game makes it

 

Which is pretty much my BIGGEST complaint with the game. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much work would need to be gone into to fix it.

The conversation in this thread is actually ironic, considering this is the same conversation that the Jedi and Sith would be talking among themselves as to just who is really a part of their belief system and just who follows it "correctly." This topic is the prime example and answer to exactly how it would be within those two organizations.

 

There is no black and white when it comes to who is on what side. People are diverse and there will always be differing opinions and morality. You will never find (within any belief, whether religious, scientific, economical, political, or other) two people who feel identically about all issues regarding their organization. There will be the outspoken few who define their personal belief as being the ideal version of their belief and try to hold everyone else to it, judging those who don't fall under their law, but that doesn't make it so.

 

The person who said to look at today's religions as example were right. The example of Catholics vs. Baptists vs. Lutherans is a bad one though since the latter two are recent branches of the former; it's more like Catholics vs. Judaism vs. Muslim. Their roots go back even further in time, and even though some of the teachings originate from the same religious figures and entities, they do not recognize each other as being a part of the same whole. You can still see this in recent history as well. Jehovah's Witnesses for example, use the same Bible, the same teachings, and are nearly identical to other Christian religions, and yet are not accepted as Christians; yet the Mormon religion which, although also using the Bible, also teach out of an entirely different book than Christians, is yet just now being embraced as Christian primarily because of political reasons.

 

So this entire thread is the answer itself: there is no one correct answer, because there always will be differing opinions, not just from us on the outside of lore, but from those inside it as well.

 

An excellent post highlighting an excellent point.

 

Allow me to wax philosophical here for a bit:

 

The Sith order first came into existence because Jedi doctrine is fundamentally broken: not because it focuses on being charitable and virtuous, but because it conceives of vast portions of the psyche as dark and forbidden, represses them - and thus creates the very monsters that it fears.

 

Repression does not lead to serenity and enlightenment - it just fosters a repressed shadow-self that eventually manifests in the form of the "dark side".

 

This is essentially what the Sith order is: a bunch of Jedis who have inverted their original teachings, embraced their suppressed feelings, and went "dark". (Remember, the sith order was funded by dark Jedi who were exiled and subjugated the sith-species.) But they are still caught in the same disastrous dichotomy, only on the other extreme end of the spectrum. They haven't broken free of the mental prison erected by Jedi lore - they still embrace it.

 

In short: a Jedi is just a sith waiting to happen. And a sith is just a Jedi who's gone over the top.

As such, "light-sided" sith are basically the ones who have finally got it: they do not repress their emotions any longer, but neither do they demonize them, becoming monsters. Instead, they follow the Twi'lek approach of "riding the heat storm" - neither light nor dark, but both, reconciled.

 

The fundamental truth that neither the Jedi nor the Sith can look in the eye is this: there is no dark side. Whatever evil there is in the Force is entirely of our own creation, born of our own way of thinking about it.

 

I would like to state that, by canon of SW, there is indeed a Dark Side. So it does exist. Now, what you define as being the Dark Side is personally up in the air. After all, there are places in the Galaxy where the Dark Side thrives, and yet no Sith or Dark jedi has ever set foot there.

 

However, I do agree with the point you make. A Lightsided Sith is a Sith who has finally broken free of the prison that was Jedi Teachings.

 

I would like to say something about the Sith Code real quick. When it says "Peace is a Lie" some think it means that the Sith believe in constant warfare. This is not true. They simply recognize that in nature, struggle never ceases. You are always in conflict, even if it may not seem like you are at the time. Peace is a Lie because it simply does not last, it always ends. Now, what you define as conflict and struggle may vary in both situation and scale, but the peace always fades away as we are forced to prove ourselves, and show that we have the right to exist, however we may define such existence.

Edited January 2, 2013 by DarthXodus

I believe You misunderstood all the light and dark side points a bit here.

 

After completing Trooper and almost done with Inq I'm grey. Why? Because It's more of being rational.

 

Example. Taris planet quest - You have a option to open a hangar and let leave the civilians or let them die in space port. What serves Empire best? Let the civis spread the word about crushing victory over Republic. Let them seed panic. What You gain - light side point. Why? Because You help to make Empire to became stronger over Your own twisted nature.

 

Basicaly what I see in this game is that when I'm acting to make Empire stronger I usally get light side points. Does this means I'm light side Sith? Heretic? Not at all. I'm doing exactly what latter on have been done by Palpatine. Secure the strenth of goverment, make my name recognised by Mofs and Comanders, make as much powerfull alies as possible and than take control of strong, stable stucture eliminating all others with help of those who are in my dept. It's still self gain interest but on larger scalle.

You can care about Your companions also as being totaly selfish only from selfish reasons. No one is allowed to insult or make fun of them beside me. They are my toys so no one can play with them and game still rewards me with light side points.

 

B.R.

Leigabar

Edited January 3, 2013 by Leigabar