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The State of Endgame.


DarthScruffy's Avatar


DarthScruffy
05.11.2016 , 04:10 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by RiVaN_ View Post
I would say that the reason not many raiders showed up for ToS and Ravagers at the beginning of 3.0 was because both were bugged beyond belief and laggy like a fly climbing out of syrup for about 2 and a half months. I'm talking 10 frames per second with graphics set to medium laggy.

Add into it the fact that there were 2 MAJOR exploits that allowed many players to gear an army of alts in about a week... Raids at the beginning of 3.0 were a total joke and the SWTOR team hasn't really put in any effort to make up for those mistakes.
They copied WoW's "Timewalking" idea and made the old ops relevant by making them hard again then added the twist of the all dropping current tier gear, but spreading the gear drops to force you to repeat particular Op's.

In short raiders haven't shown up, because SWTOR hasn't given the a reason to show up since DF/DP.
I would make the claim that for the high end community, raids constitute one month to 6 weeks of content (less if only one is released). As soon as the "World's first" competition (which was probably 56-64 people on Harb during DF/DP), that's the end of the content for that cohort. I would further make the claim that the illusion of content longevity is achieved because the "gear grinders" move in after that. Largely at about the 6 week mark, unsuccessful groups break apart, successful groups go on hiatus and social/gear grinding groups reconfigure. So, I don't really buy the claim that HM Ops can occupy the playerbase for the whole life of an expansion.

RiVaN_'s Avatar


RiVaN_
05.11.2016 , 04:16 PM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
Most people focus on the negatives rather than the positives. Take Dulfy as an example. Great content from all aspects of the game, but she was in a progression raid group. Raiders tend to put a lot of effort into the game and there are numerous instances where that benefits the community as a whole. You may not be min/maxing your gear, but having players dedicated to finding which stats are most important may help you get through something like Eternal Championship or speed up your dailies.

It doesn't mean you have to consider their needs as a priority or that players won't get by if they leave. It just goes to show that good things can come from raiding.
Completely agree.

Now, though, more and more of the folks like Dulfy are leaving and the folks she has posting SWTOR info on her behalf aren't nearly as diligent, detailed or invested as she was. There is no longer a great source of information on all things SWTOR out there, because the players left playing aren't invested. Raiders may be a fraction of the community, but they are an invested segment and they are the ones that provide the guides and in-depth details of the game.

I'm not talking about a financial investment, I mean a feeling that you need to be involved and that you need to be doing something to help others reach the same level of enjoyment you have with the game. SWTOR is losing those players and I think that is a big lose to the community.

It doesn't matter though, right, because the goal of SWTOR, it's current direction is toward the casual market. Well good luck and hopefully it works out for them.

Quote: Originally Posted by DarthScruffy View Post
I would make the claim that for the high end community, raids constitute one month to 6 weeks of content (less if only one is released). As soon as the "World's first" competition (which was probably 56-64 people on Harb during DF/DP), that's the end of the content for that cohort. I would further make the claim that the illusion of content longevity is achieved because the "gear grinders" move in after that. Largely at about the 6 week mark, unsuccessful groups break apart, successful groups go on hiatus and social/gear grinding groups reconfigure. So, I don't really buy the claim that HM Ops can occupy the playerbase for the whole life of an expansion.
I partly agree with that statement, however. 2 of the guilds that I am most active in don't fall into anything that you have stated. We have raid teams that, minus a couple people here and there. Have been together for a long time. People who have been playing together since launch. We aren't the World First crowed nor are we the gear grinders. We like progression, we like to take on the HM stuff together because it's fun. We aren't elitist about it and we have only used Starparse as a group on 1 fight, even then only 4 of use were ever in group parse together. Achievements mean jack, gear doesn't get us much and no one cares to be world first, or even server first, of anything.

1 Harb guild is definitely a competitive guild and they only show up in force when there is new competitive content. the Shadowlands guilds are definitely the grinders though.
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IanArgent's Avatar


IanArgent
05.11.2016 , 04:27 PM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Why though? Why take that chance? Why gamble on something that they can't fix in a timely manner? Why risk it at this point? Ops are what players are asking for...why try to reinvent the wheel when their customer is telling them exactly what they want?
Because they have to take risks, or die. I pointed out that Blizzard, king of the classic MMORPG, cancelled their next-gen MMORPG in favor of "casual" gameplay games. Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm, and Overwatch, they're all MMO games, but none are a WoW replacement. More interestingly, they're all derivative of massively successful gameplay types using Blizzard's IP. (Magic, DOTA/LoL, and TF2). Blizzard has the margin to do that kind of way out-of-comfort-zone move. BW ... doesn't. So they are doing everything to make an SWTOR 2, except changing the engine.



Quote: Originally Posted by devincor View Post
I feel like the Eternal Championship is a litmus test for whether Bioware will make future ops. Alot of the boss mechanics of Ops are present in the EC (boss swap, enrage, keeping mobs apart, avoid/stay in circles, kiting, etc.) To me it is a training ground. If people like it enough BW can make some new operations. If too many find it difficult then we are probably stuck with fluff stuff like the star fortresses at best.
Spot on. Since it was designed as an "on-ramp to ops" by dev statement, I'm glad that it's being seen as such.

They've stumbled once with this; by making the rewards not good enough to make it truly repeatable. They ought to throw more stuff onto the rep vendors, and it ought to provide better gear than what you can get with common/glowing crystals. Maybe better gear than what you can get with radiant ones, though I'm open to argument against that. And it ought to be moddable. I'm enjoying the progression itself for now, but when it dulls, there ought to be something to farm for. The stronghold fanciers get decos, but there's nothing at all for the crafters, for example.

It's also an example of how hard it is to develop and balance ops content...
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Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
that doesn't mean I want anyone else punished or shunned...we ALL matter.
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gabigool's Avatar


gabigool
05.11.2016 , 04:29 PM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthScruffy View Post
I would make the claim that for the high end community, raids constitute one month to 6 weeks of content (less if only one is released). As soon as the "World's first" competition (which was probably 56-64 people on Harb during DF/DP), that's the end of the content for that cohort. I would further make the claim that the illusion of content longevity is achieved because the "gear grinders" move in after that. Largely at about the 6 week mark, unsuccessful groups break apart, successful groups go on hiatus and social/gear grinding groups reconfigure. So, I don't really buy the claim that HM Ops can occupy the playerbase for the whole life of an expansion.
There were perhaps 2-3 guilds on most servers running at this pace. The majority of guilds consuming HM/NM content would go at a much, much slower pace.

Heck, my group ran 2 nights a week for 2.5 hours and we were server 3rd/4th on Shadowlands for a few of the Rav/ToS HM kills.

so... no.

For many guilds - most guilds - a cycle of two raid instances with 3 tiers of content would last close to a year.

This changed with Rav/ToS. Suddenly what used to be HM guilds - teams that could expect to kill all HM content and maybe a boss or two in NM before the next cycle - couldn't go more than 3/10 or 4/10.

So - they essentially had nothing to do. Many of them are now gone. So, having seen it close up, I do not buy this whole "No one wants to raid" ****. BW specifically did things to drive a playerbase that had been here for a while away.

That's at the mid-level, where there were numbers. The only thing that drove the Hardcore players away - the ones that liked this game enough to stick with it - was George's post last summer and the silence following it.

Stop talking about things you have zero understanding of. You sound silly.

Joefjr's Avatar


Joefjr
05.11.2016 , 04:32 PM | #115
With some tuning Eternal Champion could easily be an OP.
PLEASE give us an option to make HK-55 Melee we NEED a melee droid we got plenty of range droids already!
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Crossward's Avatar


Crossward
05.11.2016 , 04:38 PM | #116
TC may not speak for everyone, but he certainly echoes my concerns. I'm fortunate enough to be in a good NiM guild, but I really do miss new operations.

Menace-NZ had a way of thinking on another thread that I really like though. It went something along these lines:

"If we get some Operations at the end of KOTFE, then from the start of season 1 we'll have had 16 chapters, a war zone, an arena, the Eternal Championship and operations. That would be an amazing release schedule."

Basically if we take KOTFE as a full on reboot of the game and start counting from there instead of from SoR's release, KOTFE doesn't look so bad. I'm really hoping that this will be the case. If it isn't, I'll have to decide who can haz my stuff.
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MadCuzBad's Avatar


MadCuzBad
05.11.2016 , 04:46 PM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by RiVaN_ View Post
So is it time for me to take a break?
Yep.
Is it time for MANY others like me to take a break?
Yep.
Will many of us come back?
Given the state of SWTOR and the state of other games available...
It's doubtful. So many are gone having vowed never to return and more are joining them everyday.
Trust me I can tell people like you are leaving or have already left. Harbringer server is deflating like a balloon and there seems with no end in sight. Out of all my friends that have played this game (approx. 50 people personally I know) have all quit and have never came back. All except one and he only logs in briefly, runs some dailys and logs out. Its a shame to see this happening but trust me I feel the deflation of players. It wont be long before que times get too long for me and I uninstall too.

Hebruixe's Avatar


Hebruixe
05.11.2016 , 04:47 PM | #118
rabble rabble rabble
Real men use defensive cooldowns.

Kremsau's Avatar


Kremsau
05.11.2016 , 04:53 PM | #119
Loving the game, a pray BW stays it's course!

RiVaN_'s Avatar


RiVaN_
05.11.2016 , 04:53 PM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by PennyAnn View Post
You can all argue back and forth about who is speaking for whom but none of that matters.


I agree with you completely, OP. But sadly I have to say that the people who suggest you find a way to enjoy the new version of SWTOR or play something else are probably also right. Either way, all the best to you.
Sorry for snipping your post, I didn't want to take up more room on the page than I already am.

I agree with everything you said, even the moving on part. I already am and have.
This is my last day posting in the forums and my last day as a subscriber. I will continue raiding every Monday and Tuesday (via passes and unlocks bought off the GTN) with my friends and I will continue to hang out with them in voice chat, but my sub ends today. I had actually canceled my sub a while ago, but because of different things here and there my sub time was graciously extended at no cost to me.

I'm playing other games with my guild mates and helping to grow our community in those games instead of spending time in SWTOR.

I LOVE this game, LOVE it!

I Have never played a game that I just COULDN'T STOP PLAYING before I found SWTOR. Now, I can't find a way to justify paying $15 a month for raiding twice a week and 35 - 45 min of story content a month. That is an outrageous price for all the more we are getting. In my opinion I have been paying a monthly sub for 5 years, I've already paid for the content released with 3.0, I bought RotHC and Shadows of Revan and that is really all I'm playing.

So why am I still paying to play content that is 16 months old and older?
That is just how it works in SWTOR, pay or get locked out of the content. Why do they lock raids behind a pay wall if they aren't popular and if hardly anyone is running them anyway? I know my opinion is not a popular one, but the sad truth is that SWTOR is the only game I am playing that wants me to pay a monthly sub to play old content that I, literally, pre-purchased months before it was released. Sadly I will be locked out of a portion that I paid for when I bought those expansions. That just feels wrong to me.

So, I have chosen not too pay them anymore, plain and simple.
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