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[Theorycrafting] Sage Heal Stats

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
[Theorycrafting] Sage Heal Stats

Nibbon's Avatar


Nibbon
06.07.2013 , 08:55 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
Perhaps I'm fundamentally misunderstanding your hypothesis. Are you saying that Alacrity's efficacy with respect to HPS is reduced because you have to use a larger number of inferior filler abilities while waiting for cooldowns?
edit:
I think that is an oversimplification.

Let me explain a tad further - the point isn't so much the filler. It is the fact that cooldowns exist at all. What good is the ability to cast spells faster when you can only cast that spell every 20 seconds anyway?

So the importance of the filler is that it lowers the entire average of your heals (and all the connected metrics, like HPS, heal per cast time, heal per global cooldown which is essentially the same ...).

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
06.07.2013 , 09:41 PM | #32
Makes sense.

The only reason I bring up practical experience is that I am almost always delaying HT past its cooldown to finish a cast (rather than idling), so alacrity in the small quantities we're talking about let me get a little closer to casting it on CD, meaning I am actually using it more often in a fight.
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

Orderken's Avatar


Orderken
06.10.2013 , 05:26 AM | #33
The formula for each tick of Resurgence|Rejuvenate in cell J15 shouldn't refer to cell B2. After this update, I believe that your spreadsheet recommends 6 Alacrity and 4 Surge enhancements.

For my own spreadsheet, as well as my complete feedback on your spreadsheet, please see http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-1199.html.
Orderken, <Hates You>, Prophecy of the Five

Guides and Model for Healing
Sorcerer / Sage / Mercenary / Commando / Operative / Scoundrel

Nibbon's Avatar


Nibbon
06.10.2013 , 05:53 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Orderken View Post
The formula for each tick of Resurgence|Rejuvenate in cell J15 shouldn't refer to cell B2. After this update, I believe that your spreadsheet recommends 6 Alacrity and 4 Surge enhancements.

For my own spreadsheet, as well as my complete feedback on your spreadsheet, please see http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-1199.html.
I disagree with your feedback but that error is completely correct. I think the fact that they both return the same result regardless speaks loudly that it is probably correct.

My extreme thanks for catching that error, although small, it obviously had a large effect on the results.

So indeed, we are in agreement 6alacrity 4surge is the right path, I'll amend the OP later today.

edit: everything is updated including the graphics of the benefits of incremental surge and alacrity. I think that these two are the most important images:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...x=39b6ibzgg3bd

and

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...x=xmuodrz0c6zf

Anthraxal's Avatar


Anthraxal
06.11.2013 , 05:10 AM | #35
IRL is eating me alive, I hope to be able to come with a more constructive comment soon.

Anyway, just a few thoughts :
1 - My own conception of heal theorycrafting is closer to Orderken's than to yours, but still different : you use HPS, he uses EHPS, and I focus on HPCT.
2 - What's "funny" is how different arguements and points of interest finally come down to equivalent results : you boil it all down to 6/10 Alacrity and 4/10 Surge (a setup that I myself considered at some point) while Orderken's calcs and mine yielded a 7/10 Alacrity and 3/10 Surge result.
3 - What's less funny is how we all agree on the full Power setups. This is a huge failure from Bioware's part imo to introduce such nobrainers. According to my calcs, Kell Dragon level of gear should make it less of an evidence, but still, SWTOR was already not much in the field of "twinking" games, and the move they made with formulas made it even worse.

Ultimately, a healer in challenging encounters can't go wrong by going for either of our suggestions, but he might as well go his own way. Hell, a guild from my server ownd 16m TFB Nightmare on the PTS with its main Sorcerer healer having a setup based on full Power and 10/10 Surge (and some of them Enhancements not even being 72...). It proves that even if maths are of "some" importance, the main point is to have a setup that actually matches your gamestyle and/or raid task distribution.

Thanks for the very constructive and instructive discussion to both of you.

Cheers,

Noim

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
06.11.2013 , 05:36 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Anthraxal View Post
Hell, a guild from my server ownd 16m TFB Nightmare on the PTS with its main Sorcerer healer having a setup based on full Power and 10/10 Surge (and some of them Enhancements not even being 72...). It proves that even if maths are of "some" importance, the main point is to have a setup that actually matches your gamestyle and/or raid task distribution.
Gee thanks, so much to look forward to
No One Important Died Tavernus - Sorc / Taverna - Mara / Pintus - Op / Gintonica - PT
The Red Eclipse. Sweet Dreams to all my Harbinger children.

Nibbon's Avatar


Nibbon
06.11.2013 , 07:14 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Anthraxal View Post
IRL is eating me alive, I hope to be able to come with a more constructive comment soon.

Anyway, just a few thoughts :
1 - My own conception of heal theorycrafting is closer to Orderken's than to yours, but still different : you use HPS, he uses EHPS, and I focus on HPCT.
2 - What's "funny" is how different arguements and points of interest finally come down to equivalent results : you boil it all down to 6/10 Alacrity and 4/10 Surge (a setup that I myself considered at some point) while Orderken's calcs and mine yielded a 7/10 Alacrity and 3/10 Surge result.
3 - What's less funny is how we all agree on the full Power setups. This is a huge failure from Bioware's part imo to introduce such nobrainers. According to my calcs, Kell Dragon level of gear should make it less of an evidence, but still, SWTOR was already not much in the field of "twinking" games, and the move they made with formulas made it even worse.

Ultimately, a healer in challenging encounters can't go wrong by going for either of our suggestions, but he might as well go his own way. Hell, a guild from my server ownd 16m TFB Nightmare on the PTS with its main Sorcerer healer having a setup based on full Power and 10/10 Surge (and some of them Enhancements not even being 72...). It proves that even if maths are of "some" importance, the main point is to have a setup that actually matches your gamestyle and/or raid task distribution.

Thanks for the very constructive and instructive discussion to both of you.

Cheers,

Noim
Yeah, it is nice that we all come to a similar conclusion, at least. The difference (from my analysis) in HPS to 3/7 is like .1% - so really minor - and I'd expect from both of your analysis the step to 4/6 is probably pretty minor as well.

The reason I didn't bother with the work into healer theorycrafting in the first place is pretty much as you described above - it simply is not needed. Unlike DPS, healing can be all over the board on the same fight and depends a bit more on the other players in your group (avoiding mechanics, raising their mitigation). The result is that, as long as you can keep people alive, it doesn't really matter how optimized your gear is. Bioware made it so that the different stat mixes achieve similar results, no matter how skewed. I'll refer again to this image:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...x=39b6ibzgg3bd
The difference between 10/0 alacrity and 6alacrity/4surge is raising your base healing by 7.2% vs 9.8%. Point being, it is really hard to mess up your stats so badly that you aren't a viable in your group if you are a good player (this is assuming kell dragon level gear, full power).

But yeah, I do think it was a mistake that they couldn't tell their crit formula made 0 crit optimal, they should have had better foresight there.

In any case, the discussion is valuable and hopefully helpful to the masses to get some information out there. My goal with all my theorycrafting is to provide the tools to make everyone in the game better players - and that happens whether they follow my advice or it leads them to reach their own conclusions


Actually -Noim, I have a question. I think HPCT is closer in relationship to HPS than EHPS - so when you say your conception of heal theorycrafting was closer to Order's did you mean in result or actual method or calculations?

Krazy_Karl's Avatar


Krazy_Karl
06.11.2013 , 09:10 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Nibbon View Post
Yeah, it is nice that we all come to a similar conclusion, at least. The difference (from my analysis) in HPS to 3/7 is like .1% - so really minor - and I'd expect from both of your analysis the step to 4/6 is probably pretty minor as well.

The reason I didn't bother with the work into healer theorycrafting in the first place is pretty much as you described above - it simply is not needed. Unlike DPS, healing can be all over the board on the same fight and depends a bit more on the other players in your group (avoiding mechanics, raising their mitigation). The result is that, as long as you can keep people alive, it doesn't really matter how optimized your gear is. Bioware made it so that the different stat mixes achieve similar results, no matter how skewed. I'll refer again to this image:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...x=39b6ibzgg3bd
The difference between 10/0 alacrity and 6alacrity/4surge is raising your base healing by 7.2% vs 9.8%. Point being, it is really hard to mess up your stats so badly that you aren't a viable in your group if you are a good player (this is assuming kell dragon level gear, full power).

But yeah, I do think it was a mistake that they couldn't tell their crit formula made 0 crit optimal, they should have had better foresight there.

In any case, the discussion is valuable and hopefully helpful to the masses to get some information out there. My goal with all my theorycrafting is to provide the tools to make everyone in the game better players - and that happens whether they follow my advice or it leads them to reach their own conclusions


Actually -Noim, I have a question. I think HPCT is closer in relationship to HPS than EHPS - so when you say your conception of heal theorycrafting was closer to Order's did you mean in result or actual method or calculations?
All of this assumes the healers are doing nothing but healing.

For anyone who cleared S&V 8M HM the first week (while significantly undergeared), it should be known that not only did the healers need to heal, they needed to contribute DPS (where the formulas and ideal stat distribution change) as well in order to beat the enrage.

Given min/maxing as the gearing progression goes once the content is defeated, these formulas become viable again (albeit unnecessary). Until Bioware creates content that not only encourages min/maxing but actually requires it, these discussions are pretty much a moot point.

I personally run a 5/10 Alacrity/Surge (accuracy gear in my inventory just in case) and ~200 Crit for the sole reason that nothing in the game actually requires min/maxing to a particular role (and I am too lazy to continue to pull good enhancements from set gear), and it is much more likely (when going for server first kills) that you need to be well balanced versus specialized.

I have main healed as a Sage all content in the game. My guild and I were World 3rd and US 1st for the Warstalker title and we double Sage healed it (which to my knowledge no other guild accomplished). Skill matters far more than eeking out a few extra HPS, HPCT, EHPS, etc.

Unfortunately for this game, min/maxing has become a trivial and meaningless endeavor.

Regards,
KK
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. - Yoda

Nibbon's Avatar


Nibbon
06.11.2013 , 10:39 AM | #39
Karl - I fully agree with you. Some people just want to min/max and I enjoy providing the analysis even if it is completely useless. From what I heard in NiM, healing is a bit more intense for 16 man, at least - though I didn't experience it myself to be able to confirm.

But ya, skill matters a ton more than min/maxing to this degree.

Krazy_Karl's Avatar


Krazy_Karl
06.11.2013 , 12:53 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Nibbon View Post
Karl - I fully agree with you. Some people just want to min/max and I enjoy providing the analysis even if it is completely useless. From what I heard in NiM, healing is a bit more intense for 16 man, at least - though I didn't experience it myself to be able to confirm.

But ya, skill matters a ton more than min/maxing to this degree.
PTS is a waste of time and ruins the content. Bioware has already established they have no desire to listen or even respond to those who test, so what is the point (other than to make the content obsolete before it is released, ruin any type of progression race, practice strategies that even a drunken monkey could execute, etc.)

Bioware's idea of difficult content is creating imbalances between ranged and melee DPS classes in addition to the already glaring issues they have with the three tanking classes. Creating raid wide damage to the extent that success or failure largely rests on the healers ability to multitask (what are you doing with your extra GCD's?), or having tank swap mechanics that require tanks to not be deaf/mutes.

Nightmare was Bioware's last chance to get end-game raiding correct with introducing new and dynamic mechanics. Based on the response to the feedback (or lackthereof) I fully expect the instance to have zero changes from the PTS version, for it to be cleared in the first week, and to see Euro/PTS guilds with the title the day the patch is released. And subsequently, the game to go through the same decline we saw with the release of NiM EC.

Oops, looks like I am off topic.

Yeah, Sage healing is easy. Min/Maxing doesn't matter.

Regards,
KK
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. - Yoda