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[Theorycrafting] Sage Heal Stats

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
[Theorycrafting] Sage Heal Stats

Nibbon's Avatar


Nibbon
06.06.2013 , 10:19 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
Relics are actually exceedingly simple for healers.

Option 1: Serendipitous Assault and Boundless Ages.

For many people this may be the only option, because they did not get Vanilla PvP relics. It also provides the most Power when BA is used on cd.

Option 2: Serendipitous Assault and (Elite) War Hero Boundless Ages

There is only 18.25 power difference between using UBA on cd (this will go up with KD gear to 31) and no need to click.

Which option is better? Well seeing as this is a theorycrafting thread Option 1 is better. Practically, however, Option 2 may be better as you may not need that power Boost every 2 minutes (and you probably will not). Either option i completely valid and this time it really is personal preference.

Ephemeral Mending is as bad as it always was, only ever useful when purely ST healing (which never happens in Ops) and Matrix cube is very bad stat wise.

For PvP Serendipitous and Matrix actually work well because the cube gets bolstered a lot.

I still like Noim's HPCT analysis better though, so it's 6 Ala/4 Surge (UW) and 7 Ala/3 Surge (KD) for me. Sorry. Nice work though it is nice to have varying opinions.

Also looking at either only Rejuvenate+Healing Trance or the 'standard rotation' of Rejuvenate-Healing Trance-Deliverance-Noble Sacrifice may be better for a min maxing analysis. Salvation is just not a rotational ability, there is always a 'best' time to use in any given fight. It does not benefit from Alacrity beyond GCD. Force Armor is more predictable but again sometimes you may want to use it at specific times so it will not always be used every 17s. It gets no benefits from Surge and only a GCD benefit from Alacrity.

Kinda why I hate HPS analyses, Rejuvenate on cd, Salvation on cd, Force Wave on cd and Force Armour on everyone completely destroys it.
I only posted I don't know because I'm tired answering questions about relics ;p Yeah it seems pretty evident that power click and power proc are the best if you dont have an EWH - than it is arguable for EWH... I agree with your assessment 100%.

I was more or less asked to put this spreadsheet together - I think it is informative and if I healed I'd probably follow the results. While I think I state as clearly as I can in my disclaimers the drawbacks of my analysis - no analysis can be perfect since every fight varies. I don't particularly like the way he went about it (I only looked at his after I finished mine), though I do admit it is incredibly unique and interesting.

I do think HPS is an effective metric. What is HPS? It is the measure of how hard your heals hit and how fast - finding the best ratio to maximize heals. No rotation would really be kept, it isn't all that practical for healers (much more so for DPSers). But even in short bursts, the HPS metric should prove fairly faithful.

I disagree about salvation, it usually should be and is cast that much in 16 man raids where there are a lot of people to capture under it. Even so, if you just threw it under a tank, it is a very efficient heal/hot - so it is actually a nice single target heal too. I'm not sure what you are arguing about in GCD - I have a GCD analysis based off used cast times, so I am capturing that correctly. Force armor was likewise captured accurately - but I disagree there too. You should cast it nearly every 17 seconds on a single target heal since it is your best single target heal (and it certainly isn't on everyone).

Anyway, I'm not a healer. So I am not offended nor do I care all that much if people disagree. I do like doing theorycrafting and making spreadsheets, so I thought I'd share it with the world. I have presented my data - I'll gladly explain everything I can and then you can make your own decision and do what works best for you

Anyway, I have one more thing I am going to update into the OP about alacrity and how it kinda sucks, I'll post that in a moment!

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
06.06.2013 , 10:32 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Nibbon View Post
Anyway, I'm not a healer.
Yeah, it kinda shows =D. Regardless, thank you for the work. More data is ALWAYS a good thing.
No One Important Died Tavernus - Sorc / Taverna - Mara / Pintus - Op / Gintonica - PT
The Red Eclipse. Sweet Dreams to all my Harbinger children.

Nibbon's Avatar


Nibbon
06.06.2013 , 10:35 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
Yeah, it kinda shows =D
Ouch. I still think I'm right

edit: I should mention that I do heal - I just mainly play DPS and I think I have a fine understanding of how to heal.

Anthraxal's Avatar


Anthraxal
06.06.2013 , 11:26 PM | #14
Thanks for sharing your works, even though we'll prolly not agree in the end (HPCT school here).

Can't wait to read through this post seriously, BBL!

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
06.07.2013 , 12:59 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Nibbon View Post
Ouch. I still think I'm right

edit: I should mention that I do heal - I just mainly play DPS and I think I have a fine understanding of how to heal.
It doesn't help that healing in this game is lot more complex on paper than in the actual game. Running the Ops with my Scoundrel who has still got some 58s scattered in his gear is just sad. I wish you actually had to know the stuff in these spreadsheets to be able to clear content and have that kinda gear. Like fights tuned so tightly where 5/5 or 7/3 setups would actually matter beyond theorycrafted values be it HPS, EHPS, HPF or HPTC.

Let's discuss (argue about, whatever =D) Force Armour and Salvation.

Force Armour.

After some pondering I will probably go with your line of thought, i.e. every 17s. The times where you want to save it for specific attack are far and few between; DG's Storm, Kel's Force Leech, Kephess's Laser, Kephess's Jump, Scream, Huge Grenade, Lots of Missiles, after Thrasher's knockback (unless using the cheese strat), Terminate, Thundering Blast (I'm not even sure if Styrak casts it so that one may not even be valid), and I'm pretty sure there is more that I don't remember exactly, for instance The End, but having never left Sunder last I cannot comment on it.

Even during those fights I don't imagine FA being a 'cd' of more than 20-25s and apart from those using it every 17s is the best way to do it.

And as pointed out the only effect gear has on it is the GCD which with your 4/6 setup (I'm going to be using that throughout this post) ends up being 1.41s. Not really worth obsessing about beyond an instant 6k heal every 17s and only an afterthought in min maxing (makes sense that you didn't it include it originally as it would be a clear 10/0).

Salvation

Where do I even start with this one. Some fights can be healed with refreshing it every 15s and spending the rest on Youtube (P1 of DG, P2 of O9, Olok). Some fights can be healed without ever touching it (Terror). Most fights can be healed by doing either. It also has completely different utilisation in 8s and 16s (more likely to hit all 8 in a 16 but Kolto Bomb and Force Wave have no such limits). Another issue to consider is whether you are just a group healer or filling a more universal role and how many non AoE heals you are throwing out.

Putting Salvation in any meaningful numbers is an absolute nightmare, but let's try anyway.

First, let's look at efficiency. It's ST HPF (with Rej) is (using your avg values) 8377/61=137

Compare that to
ST HPF of HT (with Rej) 10427/37=281
ST HPF Del (without Rej as it is usually casted) 6877/61=113
ST HPF Del (with Rej) 6877/51=135
ST HPF Salv (without Rej) 8377/91=92 - more about this later

This is actually looking pretty good for Salvation as it is the more efficient heal than Deliverance when used with a Rejuvenate and as soon as there are at last 3 people standing in it which can all benefit from it is the most efficient heal overall and comes pretty close to HT even with 2 people standing inside it (137*2=274).
Salvation is actually very efficient when used with a Rejuvenate, a no brainer if healing 3 people and very close for healing 2 people.

Second, lets look at its healing potential (assuming all healing is effective here and working on cd-to-cd basis to simulate a longer rotation)
ST = 558 (8377/15)
ST of HT = 1390 (10427/7.5)
Again Salvation will take over at 3 targets but the difference is larger when it comes to 2 targets (2*558=1116). Another way of looking at this is that you can only get 2 HT's per one Salvation so you can never get more heals on 3 targets.
Deliverance used in the same time span in a Force Neutral rotation (used every 7.5s) will obviously generate less healing as it heals lower than a HT. It can be spammed though which just screws with the numbers but fortunately it is very unlikely that Anybody would use 3 Deliverances over a single Salvation.

So far it seems that Salvation is best option for effective healing of 3+ targets over all else. But let's go back to HPF, the reason why I calculated HPF of Salvation without Rej is simply because it is actually pretty hard to get any meaningful rotation done with Rej being used on Salvation. The benefit Rej provides to HT is so good that it is preferable to anything else. I have tried long and hard to come up with a rotation which gives Rej to every Salvation and at least every second HT but I just can't come up with a good one. Most healers will usually just use it and offset the cost later (more about this later). With that in mind it is actually less HPF efficient than HT even on 3 targets (3*92=276) but it is close enough.

What I am trying to say that Salvation only really works when it effectively heals at least 3 people. And the likelihood of that happening every 15s is very small. I will also elaborate on the 'best' time to use it. Let's use Styrak for example. You want to make sure that Salvation is available for every time Kell spins, every time Kell jumps, After Kell dies, every time Styrak uses his AoE lightning. The only time you actually want to be using it as much as possible on cd is on Ghost Kell and burn Styrak. If you used it on cd before to heal 3 people it may be on cd during those phases set out above, during those will be effectively ticking on everyone.

For these reasons I do not think it should be used on cd. This is obviously different for a 16 raid but in all honesty you may make a completely new spreadsheet just for that. I believe the spreadsheet was for more of a universal Sage healer, correct me if that is not the case.

Force Management
I do not actually see that addressed anywhere in the spreadsheet so please elaborate. The only thing I will point out that as far as stacks of Resplendence go, very efficient way is using one stack on NS and 2 on Salvation. This actually does not change much as 1-3 stacked Salvation will cast under the GCD anyway. It is also possible to cast an instant one and the use 2-3 stacks of Resplendence from the next HT while Salva is on cd.

To sum up.
Force Armour - yes use on cd but due to it's static value and only benefiting from Alacrity it should not influence gearing.
Salvation - use when appropriate, benefits more from surge than alacrity and thus should be a secondary consideration when gearing.
Thus Rej, HT and Deli (plus the GCD needed for a NS) are left to min max around.

**** me that's a wall of text. There will be typos.
No One Important Died Tavernus - Sorc / Taverna - Mara / Pintus - Op / Gintonica - PT
The Red Eclipse. Sweet Dreams to all my Harbinger children.

Nibbon's Avatar


Nibbon
06.07.2013 , 07:26 AM | #16
I don't really feel like arguing over something that I said was a personal choice, so I will just go through and confirm or provide more information on some of the things you said.

I will tell you my personal concerns over crafting gear towards each fight or a specific fight - is that you will only gear up once, you will probably not change gear for each fight, and there will be new fights (or difficulty modes) where the amount of heals or timing may change. So I do think the "Generic Healer" is the best type of healer to model for.

Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
It doesn't help that healing in this game is lot more complex on paper than in the actual game. Running the Ops with my Scoundrel who has still got some 58s scattered in his gear is just sad. I wish you actually had to know the stuff in these spreadsheets to be able to clear content and have that kinda gear. Like fights tuned so tightly where 5/5 or 7/3 setups would actually matter beyond theorycrafted values be it HPS, EHPS, HPF or HPTC.
Totally one hundred percent agree, which is why arguing beyond points of clarification is realllly pointless. 5 HPS, or whatever metric you are going to use, isn't going to win or lose a fight in this game.

Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
Let's discuss (argue about, whatever =D) Force Armour and Salvation.

Force Armour.

After some pondering I will probably go with your line of thought, i.e. every 17s. The times where you want to save it for specific attack are far and few between; DG's Storm, Kel's Force Leech, Kephess's Laser, Kephess's Jump, Scream, Huge Grenade, Lots of Missiles, after Thrasher's knockback (unless using the cheese strat), Terminate, Thundering Blast (I'm not even sure if Styrak casts it so that one may not even be valid), and I'm pretty sure there is more that I don't remember exactly, for instance The End, but having never left Sunder last I cannot comment on it.

Even during those fights I don't imagine FA being a 'cd' of more than 20-25s and apart from those using it every 17s is the best way to do it.

And as pointed out the only effect gear has on it is the GCD which with your 4/6 setup (I'm going to be using that throughout this post) ends up being 1.41s. Not really worth obsessing about beyond an instant 6k heal every 17s and only an afterthought in min maxing (makes sense that you didn't it include it originally as it would be a clear 10/0).
Not much to respond to, looks like you more or less agree - and I more or less agree with your assessment. There are definitely better times on some fights to cast force armor, as to treat it as an extra health pool rather than an actual "heal." Another great example is on the kiting tank for firebrand and stormcaller - I had to heal this fight a bit and always found that force armoring right when I needed to get back up on top of the tank was a good saving move. That being said, after I did that one move, I would go straight back into my heal "rotation." So, again, you can't really account for all the variation so I like the generic model.

Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
Salvation

Where do I even start with this one. Some fights can be healed with refreshing it every 15s and spending the rest on Youtube (P1 of DG, P2 of O9, Olok). Some fights can be healed without ever touching it (Terror). Most fights can be healed by doing either. It also has completely different utilisation in 8s and 16s (more likely to hit all 8 in a 16 but Kolto Bomb and Force Wave have no such limits). Another issue to consider is whether you are just a group healer or filling a more universal role and how many non AoE heals you are throwing out.

Putting Salvation in any meaningful numbers is an absolute nightmare, but let's try anyway.

First, let's look at efficiency. It's ST HPF (with Rej) is (using your avg values) 8377/61=137

Compare that to
ST HPF of HT (with Rej) 10427/37=281
ST HPF Del (without Rej as it is usually casted) 6877/61=113
ST HPF Del (with Rej) 6877/51=135
ST HPF Salv (without Rej) 8377/91=92 - more about this later

[snip]

What I am trying to say that Salvation only really works when it effectively heals at least 3 people. And the likelihood of that happening every 15s is very small. I will also elaborate on the 'best' time to use it. Let's use Styrak for example. You want to make sure that Salvation is available for every time Kell spins, every time Kell jumps, After Kell dies, every time Styrak uses his AoE lightning. The only time you actually want to be using it as much as possible on cd is on Ghost Kell and burn Styrak. If you used it on cd before to heal 3 people it may be on cd during those phases set out above, during those will be effectively ticking on everyone.

For these reasons I do not think it should be used on cd. This is obviously different for a 16 raid but in all honesty you may make a completely new spreadsheet just for that. I believe the spreadsheet was for more of a universal Sage healer, correct me if that is not the case.

Force Management
I do not actually see that addressed anywhere in the spreadsheet so please elaborate. The only thing I will point out that as far as stacks of Resplendence go, very efficient way is using one stack on NS and 2 on Salvation. This actually does not change much as 1-3 stacked Salvation will cast under the GCD anyway. It is also possible to cast an instant one and the use 2-3 stacks of Resplendence from the next HT while Salva is on cd.
There's a lot here - I cut out some to focus on the main point - which I think is force management. I did take force management into consideration, but I did not actually calculate the viability (easy to do, I will do it later today). My analysis does assume that everything in it is force viable - so measuring the force efficiency of the different heals is really pointless (and I honestly don't really care as long as it is realistic). I have 20 noble sac/consumptions over 5 minutes - that was the force consideration. I based this number off a couple metrics - but mainly battle logs from the healer I worked with to construct some of my methodology. I'd like to add - that he does normally cast Salvation off cooldown. I'd also like to add that he definitely casts a rejuve/resurg before each salv/reviv and the vast majority of his healing trances/innervates.

Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
To sum up.
Force Armour - yes use on cd but due to it's static value and only benefiting from Alacrity it should not influence gearing.
Salvation - use when appropriate, benefits more from surge than alacrity and thus should be a secondary consideration when gearing.
Thus Rej, HT and Deli (plus the GCD needed for a NS) are left to min max around.
So we agree on the use of force armor - I'm not sure why you don't think it should effect gearing. It benefits from alacrity due to the reduced GCD - so (especially for someone who is arguing for more alacrity) you should want it to be considered for gearing ;p Anyway, I am including it.

Salvation you say is secondary consideration, but a consideration nonetheless. If anything, I VASTLY understate the importance of surge on salvation because I have only included single target healing. I experimented with including 3 people being hit by the salvation and the need for surge and crit went up. If I remember correctly, surge wanted 7 enhancements and crit actually wanted a mod's worth (50ish as opposed to 0). At the next tier it was 6-4 but crit wanted 150. So again, I am vastly understating surge for salvation and disagree about its timing - at least generically it should be cast close to cooldown.

Last point against your quote before I go into general notes - I did do this analysis purely around rej, HT, and deli originally - it yielded 5-5 (so slightly more towards alacrity) but I consider this analysis incomplete, so I am not going to recreate it.

___________________________________

OK some separate points, I am going to talk about why alacrity is bad. OK, I'm actually just going to copy paste what I put on MMO Mechanics:

"I also wanted to present this image

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...x=o8kiila7cci6

So two things:
1. Cooldowns make alacrity less effective as already presented/explained in my thread (for reference, here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...xWWNBZ2c#gid=2)
2. Alacrity has an extra curve because of the formula 1/(1+alacrity percent) - this is what the image represents, the actual benefit of reduced cast time by alacrity percentage

so alacrity is getting triple hit with a curve - once with the cooldowns not being reduced - twice with its normal curve from the stat formula - a third time with the alacrity formula itself. In other words - alacrity gets diminished the more you have of it more severely than it actually appears."

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
06.07.2013 , 08:35 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Nibbon View Post
I'd like to add - that he does normally cast Salvation off cooldown. I'd also like to add that he definitely casts a rejuve/resurg before each salv/reviv and the vast majority of his healing trances/innervates.
Would you happen to have a log? Seeing how he works it in would be interesting.

Also you say that Force Management has been addressed with the NS. What about benefit from Alacrity to natural regen? Or are you just saying because of the changes to Resplendence it is not an important consideration, which would not actual be a wholly unreasonable assumption to make.

Also I really don't understand the first sheet but I guess it is just the numerical basis for the graph on MMO mechanics.
No One Important Died Tavernus - Sorc / Taverna - Mara / Pintus - Op / Gintonica - PT
The Red Eclipse. Sweet Dreams to all my Harbinger children.

Nibbon's Avatar


Nibbon
06.07.2013 , 12:23 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
Would you happen to have a log? Seeing how he works it in would be interesting.
http://www.torparse.com/a/270560/19/0/Heals+Given

I only used this log for two things:
1. Use of noble sacrifice (he did about over the course of this 5 minute fight)
2. His frequency of Revivification (since he is a sorc)

Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
Also I really don't understand the first sheet but I guess it is just the numerical basis for the graph on MMO mechanics.
The first sheet, as I explained in my OP, was to prove that alacrity is effected negatively by cooldowns. Since alacrity does not effect cooldowns - and cooldown spells are "better" heals than your non-cooldown spells - your HPS is not a direct correlation with the faster casting speed.

Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
Also you say that Force Management has been addressed with the NS. What about benefit from Alacrity to natural regen? Or are you just saying because of the changes to Resplendence it is not an important consideration, which would not actual be a wholly unreasonable assumption to make.
Technically - alacrity is force neutral (It isn't actually in practice). But what I said specifically was, as long as my HPS can be a real life scenario, then the analysis is valid. Restated, as long as my hypothetical heal rotation doesn't run out of force completely in a 5 minute span, then the results can be used. I have edited my numbers a bit to reflect that (mainly more noble sacrifices).

But I would like to go into something a bit here - no one is ever going to be chain casting heals for 5 minutes straight like this. I'd submit that this analysis tells us what will give us the highest heal/second regardless of force or time in any case ...

Anyway, the end result keeps coming up the same - 6 surge and 4 alacrity

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
06.07.2013 , 01:56 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Nibbon View Post
http://www.torparse.com/a/270560/19/0/Heals+Given

I only used this log for two things:
1. Use of noble sacrifice (he did about over the course of this 5 minute fight)
2. His frequency of Revivification (since he is a sorc)
A 16 man DG with 67% overheal. Well it is a 16 man and Sages will always have fairly high overheal from Salvation, but what that log shows is that spam-Salvation is possible, even viable but hardly ideal.

Only 16.36% of heals were directed at tanks, including one Force-bent Dark Heal with 100% overheal each. My guess here is either fat finger, double right click, mistake or the tank took a big hit but the heal was sniped by another healer before the Dark Heal landed. The use of the other 6 Dark Heals seems correct and likely in that fight. Again this tells me he was predominantly a group healer, which explains the off cd Revi. 14 Innervates were cast at one of the tanks though so he may have been filling a double role. (AoE DPS every 15s, Focus on a tank) It is hard to tell from the log.

Most Revis are not Force-bent, in fact only one is. In line with general Sorc healing practice and at least it dipells my fears of there being some hidden rotation I can't figure out. Due to hitting 3+ people cost is more than justified (provided it was Effective can't really tell).

It's just a strange log to use as a base of Salvation frequency.

I sadly do not have a 2.0 log of DG. In fact the only one I have is from my first clear of TFB so the timing of heals is different from the one I use now when I predict big hits and AoE damage due to experience.

http://www.torparse.com/a/226118

The usage of Salvation and EHPS ratio speaks for itself. OC is useless because of the nature of the fight (and a CCed droid) and Olok is a weird one I do think I just spammed Salvation. I do know I DPSed P3. Trasher, Warlords and Styrak are pretty good fights as far as 'general healing' goes (AoE DPS, focus tank).

So I played with your spreadsheet using different set ups (Salv every 30s, NS every 7.5s, no Salv, no Salv+no FA) and I always get 5/5 as best HPS. Very interesting, will have to play with the other spreadsheet to see where the discrepancy is.
No One Important Died Tavernus - Sorc / Taverna - Mara / Pintus - Op / Gintonica - PT
The Red Eclipse. Sweet Dreams to all my Harbinger children.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
06.07.2013 , 02:10 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
http://www.torparse.com/a/226118

The usage of Salvation and EHPS ratio speaks for itself. OC is useless because of the nature of the fight (and a CCed droid) and Olok is a weird one I do think I just spammed Salvation. I do know I DPSed P3. Trasher, Warlords and Styrak are pretty good fights as far as 'general healing' goes (AoE DPS, focus tank).
It's quite interesting comparing our approaches: http://www.torparse.com/a/220401

Clearly we would disagree on the frequency of using Salvation. It does highlight the difficulty of mapping ability usage for healers, insofar as you can't quantify an ideal rotation in quite the same way as you can for DPS.

Ultimately, however... I'm no longer motivated to really delve into theorycrafting anymore. This game is so phenomenally easy it just strikes me as utterly irrelevant. It doesn't matter how you gear, and it barely matters how you play
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin