Hello there,

First of all let me point out that i play ONLY mercenary since the beta of this game with some huge breaks however due to being pissed from the dev team gutting a spec(yeah -5% dmg reduction from power barrier because we were too "tanky" and gutting of tracer dps on a 0 mobility 0 interrupt class never forget).Before 1.7 i have always been a pyrotech in PvP with huge success in many cases (which left me depressed and drooling when looking a the old PT pyrotech DPS tree potential compared to our old poor).After 2.0 i have enjoyed arsenal way more mainly for the big numbers and utility the tree offers.However i see a lot of people decide to go pyrotech in the yoloque and although thats fine by me i really keep wondering "Why?".From this "Why?" 2 questions were born and i would be happy if someone with deep knowledge on mercenary would discuss with me.

1)Well since the stats we "should" be stacking are power and surge (up to the 75% cap) remodding all my conqueror gear left me with 94% accuracy(with the1% from max affection companion taken into account).Wouldnt that make our white dmg, which comes from many sources as pyrotech compared to unload and rail only from arsenal, much more susceptible to evade and dodge?For example, ur spamming ability as a pyrotech is power shot to proc the free rail while the main spam ability for arsenal is tracer missile to proc barraged unload(tons of dmg).The problem is wont you need a liiittle tiny more acuracy so that you will be sure that your white proc ability always hit the target?Doesnt that however hinder a tiny bit ur dps from the potential power loss?

2)People claim pyrotech is more mobile for yoloque mainly because of 2 factors: instacasts + dotting plus easier LoSing of the opponent Ranged dps(sniper,sorc,arsenal merc),while dissing dmg while being LoSed(dotting healer behind a pillar etc).Though i will give it to you that pyrotech performs better at LoSing vs arsenal (imho always) i believe there is a lie behind the matter of instacasts.You need to spam at least 2 times power shot in order to proc another railshot,same goes with tracer missile however arsenal has access to 2 instant cast spells thanks to powersurge.Dont you actually feel the need to spam powershot just for pure DMG after rail td fm are on cooldown?Or is that dps till u have most abilities on cooldown sufficient enough to leave a healer in the verge of death?What also i dont get is having better defensive cooldowns IMO as arsenal(new chaff flare talent rly good )meaning more hydraulic override duration and less cd,70% slow on unload(really useful when target is trying to escape or being knockbacked by you while hydraulic is open),decoy,energy rebounder,less cd on determination and jet boost along with longer distance knocked and a pseudo root, compared to poor defensive ones by pyro plus the fact that you can burst heal yourself with kolto missile 2 insta cast kolto missile(medpack also if needed).So WHY is pyrotech considered a superior soloque spec?Remember i want a discussion as i am not in any case dissing the pyro spec im just very curious for some things to be answered so i can better understand some decisions.

P.S excuse my wall of text and my too long sentences

1. if you read the accuracy tooltip you see that special attacks have 100% base accuracy, which technically means that anything other than your base attack (Rapid Shots) have 100% base accuracy. If you take 1 accuracy enhancement and the obvious accuracy talent in the Pyro tree you will have 105% accuracy which means without debuffs or dcds you will hit everyone other than inquisitors and tanks 100% of the time.

In short you gear the same way as Arsenal.

2. Pyro is more mobile and less prone to being shut down with interrupt. You can do IM->TD->RS->UL->RS without any casting. Also Pyro has some nice things going for it. Like slow from basic attack (ar any range attack really), lowest CD pushback, 25% defense/resist chance for 6 second every 45 second and Pyro Shield.

Also the biggest advantage of Pyro over Arsenal is dps, Pyro has at least 15% higher dps and i was generous with Arsenal (numbers are based on recent dummy parses so don't take the % for granted, but Pyro obviously has higher dps). Only thing Arsenal has going for it is the superior burst and the higher durability, but even Pyro has some nice burst with TD->RS->PS->RS, so it's not a clear win for Arsenal.

1. Don't take any accuracy in any spec for PvP.

2. Pyro is much harder to shut down. You can always get off thermal det, incendiary missile and rail shot. Unload will proc rail off the first tick, so you only lose a small amount of damage. It's also on a fairly low CD. If power shot gets interrupted, big whoop. Use fillers until unload is off CD, the interrupt lockout ends or rail shot comes off CD naturally. Its more difficult to shut down a pyro merc and an arsenal merc. If you don't get tracer off, your unload does much less, your heatseaker does much less and you can't even use rail shot.

Also, you will most likely need to save your power surge instant casts for self heals, unless you know for certain you will kill the target you're using the instant tracers on.

1. Don't take any accuracy in any spec for PvP.

I wouldn't do that, if you take 1 accuracy enhancement you will have 100% hit chance against most non-tank class, and the lost in surge is neglectable. Personally I think 1 accuracy enhancement is the way to go on every spec that isn't Carnage mara, Sorcerer or Concealment operative.

I wouldn't do that, if you take 1 accuracy enhancement you will have 100% hit chance against most non-tank class, and the lost in surge is neglectable. Personally I think 1 accuracy enhancement is the way to go on every spec that isn't Carnage mara, Sorcerer or Concealment operative.

I haven't had s single problem hitting any non-tank without a dcd activated. Not saying you're wrong, just saying I don't have any accuracy and its working.

The difference between 1 accuracy item and 0 accuracy items is virtually....nothing. Very little change in accuracy vs. very little change in damage output. It basically doesn't matter. Use whatever you personally prefer and don't sweat over it.

Also the biggest advantage of Pyro over Arsenal is dps, Pyro has at least 15% higher dps and i was generous with Arsenal (numbers are based on recent dummy parses so don't take the % for granted, but Pyro obviously has higher dps). Only thing Arsenal has going for it is the superior burst and the higher durability, but even Pyro has some nice burst with TD->RS->PS->RS, so it's not a clear win for Arsenal.

Sorry, but I must disagree with this. Actually pretty much everything in this statement. Dummy parse is irrelevant for determining which class does more damage in pvp. Dummies don't interrupt. Dummies don't cleanse. Dummies don't force you to defend. In my experience, vs. good skill opponents, Arsenal does more damage in pvp than Pyro. The cleansing just devastates Pyro damage output. Against bad opponents that don't cleanse, Pyro can do a lot of damage. But a sorc will do even more.

The one advantage Pyro has over Arsenal is burst. Yes, burst. The conventional wisdom that Arsenal is a burst class is deeply flawed. Arsenal is a sustained output machine. UL-TM-HSM-UL-RS does a lot of damage but has a very long windup, and burst occurs only if get a critical hit on HSM. Which is about a 22% chance. That is not dependable and dependable is what you need to be a good burst class. In contrast Merc Pyro's RS-UL-RS is a far more dependable source of burst because of the 40% crit chance on each RS. Don't believe me? Consider this. Even if Arsenal's HSM had an auto-crit, it still would only do about as much damage as the Pyro's 2x RS with 40% crit chance per RS. Yes, Arsenal's best case burst is only equal to Pyro's average burst. Case closed. Pyro burst > Arsenal burst.

Where Pyro sucks is sustained damage. Because once your 2x RS trick is used up you are stuck with crappy abilities that get cleansed. What makes it even worse against good opponents is that you need to spread your DoTs across multiple opponents or you subject yourself to being easily double cleansed. Which means your sustained single target damage is abysmal. Again, unless you are facing bad opponents that don't cleanse.

The difference between 1 accuracy item and 0 accuracy items is virtually....nothing. Very little change in accuracy vs. very little change in damage output. It basically doesn't matter. Use whatever you personally prefer and don't sweat over it.

 

 

 

Sorry, but I must disagree with this. Actually pretty much everything in this statement. Dummy parse is irrelevant for determining which class does more damage in pvp. Dummies don't interrupt. Dummies don't cleanse. Dummies don't force you to defend. In my experience, vs. good skill opponents, Arsenal does more damage in pvp than Pyro. The cleansing just devastates Pyro damage output. Against bad opponents that don't cleanse, Pyro can do a lot of damage. But a sorc will do even more.

 

The one advantage Pyro has over Arsenal is burst. Yes, burst. The conventional wisdom that Arsenal is a burst class is deeply flawed. Arsenal is a sustained output machine. UL-TM-HSM-UL-RS does a lot of damage but has a very long windup, and burst occurs only if get a critical hit on HSM. Which is about a 22% chance. That is not dependable and dependable is what you need to be a good burst class. In contrast Merc Pyro's RS-UL-RS is a far more dependable source of burst because of the 40% crit chance on each RS. Don't believe me? Consider this. Even if Arsenal's HSM had an auto-crit, it still would only do about as much damage as the Pyro's 2x RS with 40% crit chance per RS. Yes, Arsenal's best case burst is only equal to Pyro's average burst. Case closed. Pyro burst > Arsenal burst.

 

Where Pyro sucks is sustained damage. Because once your 2x RS trick is used up you are stuck with crappy abilities that get cleansed. What makes it even worse against good opponents is that you need to spread your DoTs across multiple opponents or you subject yourself to being easily double cleansed. Which means your sustained single target damage is abysmal. Again, unless you are facing bad opponents that don't cleanse.

After 120+ ranked games vs the top players in leaderboards i honestly can confirm this.Being arsenal or pyro rarely matters vs 2-3 assassins or vs assassin+marauder as it will be rly difficult to do anything besides few dps.At least for myself, arsenal is simply useless in my server cos everyone interrupts and stunlocks frequently and perfectly.Also your statement about pyro having more burst is 100% true mainly because getting that huge crit on HSM is super rare(no idea why marauders must have insta crit on an ability that is same dmg wise with HSM but is also aoe...), plus railshot has more armor penetration than HSM,more uptime and epic set bonus gives it 15% crit chance.Honestly i feel like set bonus is wasted on arsenal (the 4/4 one) and its too good for pyro but cant complain about it .

P.S: A little suggestion for all those who will try ranked with mercenary, be prepared to get flamed.A lot.Even when your sniper will do 5k dmg in 2 rounds it will always be ur fault.Because you are a mercenary.Arsenal or Pyrotech, once 2 people sit on your face(melee people) your dmg will be abyssmal.

Sorry, but I must disagree with this. Actually pretty much everything in this statement. Dummy parse is irrelevant for determining which class does more damage in pvp. Dummies don't interrupt. Dummies don't cleanse. Dummies don't force you to defend. In my experience, vs. good skill opponents, Arsenal does more damage in pvp than Pyro. The cleansing just devastates Pyro damage output. Against bad opponents that don't cleanse, Pyro can do a lot of damage. But a sorc will do even more.

It's not irrelevant since it shows the damage potential. And since pyro is harder to shut down and the dots are only ~17% of Pyro's damage and it has 3 dots so they can't cleanse them all means Pyro dmg > Arsenal dmg

The one advantage Pyro has over Arsenal is burst. Yes, burst. The conventional wisdom that Arsenal is a burst class is deeply flawed. Arsenal is a sustained output machine. UL-TM-HSM-UL-RS does a lot of damage but has a very long windup, and burst occurs only if get a critical hit on HSM. Which is about a 22% chance. That is not dependable and dependable is what you need to be a good burst class. In contrast Merc Pyro's RS-UL-RS is a far more dependable source of burst because of the 40% crit chance on each RS. Don't believe me? Consider this. Even if Arsenal's HSM had an auto-crit, it still would only do about as much damage as the Pyro's 2x RS with 40% crit chance per RS. Yes, Arsenal's best case burst is only equal to Pyro's average burst. Case closed. Pyro burst > Arsenal burst.

Arsenal's burst is procced Unload which has insane burst, with my gear it can easily tick for 6k (when crit obvously) which is just a few % shy of a crit PS (again with my gear). Pyro has nothing to match that ~3 second burst, and if you add a RS or HSM Pyro still can't keep up in that 3 GCD.

Where Pyro sucks is sustained damage. Because once your 2x RS trick is used up you are stuck with crappy abilities that get cleansed. What makes it even worse against good opponents is that you need to spread your DoTs across multiple opponents or you subject yourself to being easily double cleansed. Which means your sustained single target damage is abysmal. Again, unless you are facing bad opponents that don't cleanse.

With the cd difference of dots, the number of dots and the fact that you can dot with ranged attacks makes cleansing a non-factor really. Other than Force Shroud and Evasion I rarely have trouble with cleansing. Even if you get cleansed you just replace 1 PS with IM. And UL/PS is hardly crappy filler.

After 120+ ranked games vs the top players in leaderboards i honestly can confirm this.Being arsenal or pyro rarely matters vs 2-3 assassins or vs assassin+marauder as it will be rly difficult to do anything besides few dps.At least for myself, arsenal is simply useless in my server cos everyone interrupts and stunlocks frequently and perfectly.Also your statement about pyro having more burst is 100% true mainly because getting that huge crit on HSM is super rare(no idea why marauders must have insta crit on an ability that is same dmg wise with HSM but is also aoe...), plus railshot has more armor penetration than HSM,more uptime and epic set bonus gives it 15% crit chance.Honestly i feel like set bonus is wasted on arsenal (the 4/4 one) and its too good for pyro but cant complain about it .

 

P.S: A little suggestion for all those who will try ranked with mercenary, be prepared to get flamed.A lot.Even when your sniper will do 5k dmg in 2 rounds it will always be ur fault.Because you are a mercenary.Arsenal or Pyrotech, once 2 people sit on your face(melee people) your dmg will be abyssmal.

You are very right on with this post. It pretty much answers your own questions.

I played a lot of ranked (8 Man) with my two main characters: a merc and a powertech (yes a BH nut I suppose). I concur that it is a fact when you start getting marked, and/or approached by a Shadow or Shadow/Sentinel, etc, then your DPS goes down remarkably, however your opponent's does not.

BUT the big question is... while we are backing up, being interrupted, dotted, slowed, face planted, spin kicked, etc, etc, would you rather be trying to get that Trace Missile off? Or or a TM, TD, RS combo?

The funny thing is I put up amazingly better numbers in Powertech on ranked that it soon became my guild only wanted my PT, and not the Merc unless I was queing heals. Why is this? I would not call the Powertech more defensive! The reason the PT excels where the Merc does not is because of two main reasons: Flame Burst and Cryo freeze buys you a split second of some serious DPS. This is something a Merc just can't do.

So while I agree that if the other team ignores my Arsenal Merc, they will pay dearly, but it happens so very little there's almost no point. I enjoy the play style and the 'big hit' off of Heatseeker that once in a while you crit a fat number, but it is too frustrating.

Back a year ago I posted often in the Merc forum 'begging' Devs to STOP making Arsenal so reliant on Tracer. They partially fixed this but not really. Yes, one Tracer Missile does the armour break, but STILL we are too reliant Tracer to : Proc Unload dmg, build damage modifier (nerfed), AND make Rail shot truly hurt.

My experiences in ranked tell me at the end of the day you're still far better off with a Sniper than an arsenal merc. We really are in the same nether region that Lightning Sorcs are. If you need a caster that can punch through armour, you want a Sniper. For now I play Pyro in non-ranked matches where my DPS might be scrutinized, but I love bashing my head against the wall so when no one is looking I do still run Arsenal.

You are very right on with this post. It pretty much answers your own questions.

 

I played a lot of ranked (8 Man) with my two main characters: a merc and a powertech (yes a BH nut I suppose). I concur that it is a fact when you start getting marked, and/or approached by a Shadow or Shadow/Sentinel, etc, then your DPS goes down remarkably, however your opponent's does not.

 

BUT the big question is... while we are backing up, being interrupted, dotted, slowed, face planted, spin kicked, etc, etc, would you rather be trying to get that Trace Missile off? Or or a TM, TD, RS combo?

 

The funny thing is I put up amazingly better numbers in Powertech on ranked that it soon became my guild only wanted my PT, and not the Merc unless I was queing heals. Why is this? I would not call the Powertech more defensive! The reason the PT excels where the Merc does not is because of two main reasons: Flame Burst and Cryo freeze buys you a split second of some serious DPS. This is something a Merc just can't do.

 

So while I agree that if the other team ignores my Arsenal Merc, they will pay dearly, but it happens so very little there's almost no point. I enjoy the play style and the 'big hit' off of Heatseeker that once in a while you crit a fat number, but it is too frustrating.

 

Back a year ago I posted often in the Merc forum 'begging' Devs to STOP making Arsenal so reliant on Tracer. They partially fixed this but not really. Yes, one Tracer Missile does the armour break, but STILL we are too reliant Tracer to : Proc Unload dmg, build damage modifier (nerfed), AND make Rail shot truly hurt.

 

My experiences in ranked tell me at the end of the day you're still far better off with a Sniper than an arsenal merc. We really are in the same nether region that Lightning Sorcs are. If you need a caster that can punch through armour, you want a Sniper. For now I play Pyro in non-ranked matches where my DPS might be scrutinized, but I love bashing my head against the wall so when no one is looking I do still run Arsenal.

Indeed now that im 200+ ranked games i have the knowledge to answer my own questions .The point of this thread was to answer something before i enter ranked.I also am a BH holic and ill be running a PT soon(probly AP spec since operative buff is incoming and AP has -30% dmg on stuns).Played my 80-90 matches as pyrotech merc, he is rly so very squishier than ar senal merc,that when i swapped to arsenal i gained 150 elo in 3 days.You are right, if i free cast they will lose 90% of the time ( damage done is irrelevant,all you need is short burst periods to kill people not dmg showoff).My dmg with pyro was maybe better however my dmg with arsenal is more important because it comes all together and can be the lethal death blow we need on someone.Honestly,sometimes that i kite 2-3 people i feel like im the black sheep,i cannot retaliate besides one insta tracer(if i dont heal with pwer surge) ed en rocket punch hsm rs.Thats it, then im a loaf of bread spamming kolto missile and knockback while losing....I maybe hit my goal on arsenal (1380+ elo is the goal, currently 1220) but honestly im pretty sure once my PT is done,he will be 1000 times easier to achieve my goal.And that sucks

Yes, that's what I found.

The PT is far easier. And you will reach your goal, and it will dishearten you moreso towards your Mercenary. This is what happened to me even before BW shut down 8 man ranked. Net sure is fun.... so is shoulder rocket, but I still perfer the Merc playstyle on a day to day basis. I have just concluded that I play a second rate character in the Merc and all I can do is deal with it because even after a year of changes the 'hierarchy' of ranked DPS really hasn't changed much, has it?

I thought I would find true love with my PT but instead I got a lot of hate from healers. I finally changed his name and retired him! I went back to second class citizen Merc. I hope you find what you are looking for with your PT. Good luck and try to enjoy it. If you become bitter like me, you just end up quitting in frustration. lol

It's (parse) not irrelevant since it shows the damage potential.

For pvp it is irrelevant. Merc Pyro may have the top parse numbers, but it is probably the worst dps class for arena in the game.

Arsenal's burst is procced Unload .... Pyro has nothing to match that ~3 second burst, and if you add a RS or HSM Pyro still can't keep up in that 3 GCD.

Short chopping UL to use your 2x RS provides much better burst than Arsenal's Unload. In basically the same time window. And it is non-interruptible. Which is the key. Just try using that Unload with a melee on you in an ranked arena. LOL.

With the cd difference of dots, the number of dots and the fact that you can dot with ranged attacks makes cleansing a non-factor really. Other than Force Shroud and Evasion I rarely have trouble with cleansing. Even if you get cleansed you just replace 1 PS with IM. And UL/PS is hardly crappy filler.

Force Shroud and Evasion are not cleansing. Against a competent enemy operative/scoundrel you are just playing a losing game with Pyro DoTs. Triage costs a mere 1 energy net of GCD recovery, and it is going to negate 3-4k of Pyro DoT damage. With the presence of a Pyro, Triage is elevated to the scoundrel's best insta-heal. If enemies aren't doing that to you, then they simply aren't very good.

For pvp it is irrelevant. Merc Pyro may have the top parse numbers, but it is probably the worst dps class for arena in the game.

/Sigh ok.....i'm not gona keep arguing about this

Short chopping UL to use your 2x RS provides much better burst than Arsenal's Unload. In basically the same time window. And it is non-interruptible. Which is the key. Just try using that Unload with a melee on you in an ranked arena. LOL.

No, RS->PS->RS doesn't match arsenal highest 3GCD burst

I used the tooltip values with my gear. Obviously I didn't count for the off-hand hits, the armor reductions and the different crit ratings between builds, but I doubt that would make 40% difference.

Force Shroud and Evasion are not cleansing. Against a competent enemy operative/scoundrel you are just playing a losing game with Pyro DoTs. Triage costs a mere 1 energy net of GCD recovery, and it is going to negate 3-4k of Pyro DoT damage. With the presence of a Pyro, Triage is elevated to the scoundrel's best insta-heal. If enemies aren't doing that to you, then they simply aren't very good.

Shroud and Evasion purges which is the same as cleanse just better, so your point is...? Anyway I'm not gona argue about this either, it's been already said. Most ppl don't cleanse but even if they do it's not a big deal.