I've been trying to absorb all the theory crafting I can as to the 2.0 relics and the status of Defense vis a vis shield/absorb. I have to admit I'm still really not sure what the consensus is, or if there is one. My primary consideration is for juggernaut tanking, but I suppose this is a debate worth having for all the tanks.

1.)Where are we in terms of stacking Defense as a stat? At first glance, I concluded we should have zero defense as shield/absorb had become a far better stat (since it guards against ALL energy/kinetic attacks). Then I realized that shields don't work against crit attacks ... but do we even know how often bosses crit against us? Don't some of the bosses essentially "crit" every time? Has anyone figured out a good stat ratio to carry in 2.0?

2.)What relics should we be using for PVE in 2.0. I am rolling with two elite war hero relics of defense right now. I obtained the two elite war hero relics of shielding just in case.

I am not a fan of "clicky" relics for a variety of reasons. So assume for a moment that as a matter of choice I don't want to use them.

My other options are the underworld relics of shield amplification and the underworld relic of imperiling redoubt.

AMPLIFICATION:

98 END

32 Power

shielding an attack grants six seconds of 550 absorb, can only happen once every 20 seconds.

IMPERILING REDOUBT

98 END

32 Def (strange that the amplification one gives power)

Any attack can grant 550 of defense for six seconds, once every 20 seconds.

Given that these share cooldowns, you only want to use one, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the redoubt one WAY better, since any attack triggers it versus the necessity of having your shield trigger it? 550 defense ends up being somewhere between 160-210 Def per minute (when you consider the static boost), though my math is a bit fuzzy.

I'm thinking for 2.0 for juggernaut tanks use one imperiling redoubt, and one pvp elite war hero shielding relic .. or maybe one elite war hero defense relic? Am I wrong? I guess we don't know if there is going to be a new matrix cube ...

1.)Where are we in terms of stacking Defense as a stat? At first glance, I concluded we should have zero defense as shield/absorb had become a far better stat (since it guards against ALL energy/kinetic attacks). Then I realized that shields don't work against crit attacks ... but do we even know how often bosses crit against us? Don't some of the bosses essentially "crit" every time? Has anyone figured out a good stat ratio to carry in 2.0?

For your first question, the basic answer is that NPCs don't crit (not *all*, there are a *very* small number that do and only under specific circumstances; the primary example I can think of is the elites in one of the Section X dailies that get Force Potency) because they don't have native crit chances, just like, on live now, they don't have native Resistance chances. As such, you're always getting the full Shield listed.

As to the second question (concerning stat ratios), dipstik did his stat distro math after the 3/15 nerf to Shield/Abs here and updated it to account for the fact that Shield doesn't compete with Def and Abs and, as such, has a flat minimum that it manages. The conclusions are pretty surprising insofar as Defense becomes the kingmaker stat for everyone except for Shad/Sin (who are pretty much even with slight favoritism towards Defense), though that can be explained without much effort since dipstik only assumed 10% of total damage originates from F/T attacks, which I'm not sure is going to be entirely true. Once we get some more parses and analysis for the new end game content, it'll be more accurate.

As it stands, I'm probably going to be going for an even split on Defense and Absorb for my Shadow while maximizing Shield without pushing into augs. For Guardians, it's pretty much lolAbsorb, kinda like it is now.

2.)What relics should we be using for PVE in 2.0. I am rolling with two elite war hero relics of defense right now.

I'm actually pretty sure that the relics are going to see some changes before 2.0 lands (all of the relics except for the Defense proc relic have the same passive stats, which seems a bit off considering the DG tier), so I'm not paying a massive amount of attention to them yet. If they stay as they currently are, the best bet for Guardians is going to be the defense proc relic and a passive PvP Defense relic.

This seems a little confusnig to me reading the thread and looking at the charts contradict each other. I am assuming that's because the charts were updated after the shield/absorb #s were "tweaked". However, it seems unlikly that Blizzard's change to the shield/absorb numbers would make tanking stat balance do a complete 180 and go from stacking next to 0 defense to defense being the best overall thing to stack by a longshot.

Unless the headers for the columns are wrong that is. For instance looking at the PowerTech/Vanguard numbers.....at a 3000 point stat budget....we'll use next to 0 shield:

d s a

2000 1114 720 166

So 1114 Defense, 720 shield, and 166 Absorb??? This just doesn't look right.

As to the second question (concerning stat ratios), dipstik did his stat distro math after the 3/15 nerf to Shield/Abs here and updated it to account for the fact that Shield doesn't compete with Def and Abs and, as such, has a flat minimum that it manages. The conclusions are pretty surprising insofar as Defense becomes the kingmaker stat for everyone except for Shad/Sin (who are pretty much even with slight favoritism towards Defense), though that can be explained without much effort since dipstik only assumed 10% of total damage originates from F/T attacks, which I'm not sure is going to be entirely true. Once we get some more parses and analysis for the new end game content, it'll be more accurate

Yeah, the big outstanding question for 2.0 ideal stat distributions is how far from dipstik's model the actual game is.

Another problem is variation between fights.

For instance, in TFB on live, Operator IX is almost entirely M/R. Something like 85% of the damage taken comes from attacks that can be dodged or shielded. Conversely, Kephess the Undying has something like 95% of damage taken coming from K/E attacks, but only Power Punch is M/R (so 95% of the damage could theoretically be shielded in 2.0, but only about 10-15% defended).

Other bosses fall more into the middle of the spectrum, with varying degrees of M/R vs. F/T and K/E vs. I/E damage.

My gut feel is that top tier tanks may investigate keeping some gear swaps on hand so that they can build a properly "balanced' tanking set (relevant to each class), and then a "shield biased" set for fights where there is an unusually low percentage of M/R attacks. How much switching will be necessary is obviously dependent on the class and available gearing combinations.

im waiting for 2.0 to hit before doing all the analysis required for calculating relic bis. in the past i ended up using bis mitigation as a regression to stat pool and comparing static vs. proc/on-use based on that regression. using a linear model for the range in question (1600 to 2000 total mitigation pool for 1.7 depending on static relics and B mod and endurance heavy enhancements) made everything much easier to calc out for expected dps taken, but if the new curves are more curvy (low r-squared value for regression) then i might have to use more rigor...

it is true that the % f/t k/e and % special vs. % plain (for 90% vs. 100% accuracy attacks) play a huge role in bis calcs.

i think some kind of middle ground, where you bis for maybe 20% f/t (of k/e dmg) and keep some relics to swap between defense and sheild for high m/r fights and high f/t fights respectivly.

So according to the new charts with the DR increase to Shield/Absorb, Defense has now become the kingstat?

For instance, on my PT assuming a item budget of 2000, maximum mitigation is found at:

1114 dr, 720 shr, 166 abr???

Pulled from the VG/PT Chart

d s a

2000 1114 720 166

I'm just finding it hard to believe that a small tweak to the shr/abr dr #s caused this large of a swing.

I'm just finding it hard to believe that a small tweak to the shr/abr dr #s caused this large of a swing.

It wasn't a "small tweak". It was a pretty substantial revision of the DR curve.

It would appear so in order to swing the pendulum that far back in favor of defense. I'll still hold out hope for more balance to be implemented in the next two weeks though.

It will just feel wierd as a PT tank to be stacking defense and virtually ignoring absorb rating. That's going to make damage a lot more spikey for healers to deal with.

The best I can guess is that it was intended to balance out the ideal stat ratios for several tiers down the line. Since Absorb is tied to the largely static value of Shield, as Shield gets naturally higher thanks to higher gear ratings, Absorb is going to become naturally more valuable. It's entirely possible the devs adjusted it not looking at what we'll be wearing for *this* tier of gear and are instead looking at what we'll be wearing 6-12 months from now.

Of course, it's just as possible that the devs know less about optimal stat distribution than we do and screwed the pooch by overreacting to the general worthlessness of Defense before the "fix" or that we're doing all of our math wrong because there are going to be a lot more F/T attacks thrown out than we're accounting for.

No matter how you look at it, the only thing to do is wait, see, and hope.