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I know that you guys probably despise this question, but....


Penchante

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Which of the tanking classes feels more like a Death Knight from WoW?

 

Obviously I'm not talking about the lore or story, but the mechanics. I enjoyed that becoming a great tank on the DK took a bit more finesse than the sta/block stackers that were the Pallies and Warriors. As an aside, I also enjoyed tanking on my fuzzy butt bear quite a bit.

 

Bonus question: Which tank class ends up with the biggest, most ****** armor in the game?

 

edit: the censored word rhymes with madhass

Edited by Penchante
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I didn't play WoW so can't help you there. I'd suggest reading the stickys in the class forums for detailed info on each tank.

 

Basic rundown: Juggs can take a lot of damage. Powertechs have great aoe aggro/ dmg. Assassins get a very high chance to shield an attack for reduced damage and they probably do the most dps of the tanks.

 

They can all get the job done and none or especially gimped...regardless of what you read on the forums.

 

Looks don't matter so much because "soon" you will be able to get the set bonuses with whatever orange gear you want. Until then..juggs looks like cyborgs, powertechs look like Fett, assassins are in robes and have some cool helmet options.

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Ah, well, the DK would forgo a shield in favor of a larger two handed weapon. The tanking was based half on avoidance, and half on their shield mechanic. They had a self heal ability that activated a shield, and the trick was to have the shield up constantly, with the avoidance hopefully stepping in to handle any errant unshielded hits.
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Hmm, after reading up a bit this morning, I found more than once that people say the BH/Vanguard is more like a DK, just without self heals, and that being the Alchemist prof (sorry I don't know it's name) covers that just fine. Is there any truth to that statement?

 

p.s.: Would Kitru be averse to commenting in here? She seems rather knowledgeable on the status of tanks.

Edited by Penchante
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It's not Guardian/Juggernaut, they work very similarly to a warrior from early WoW. Rage mechanic, charge, stacking sunders, etc. They're quite tough but I hear they have some AoE threat issues.

 

Vanguard and Powertech have great AoE threat and more long range options than the other two, though they still want to be in melee range. They have a bit more mitigation (correct me if I'm wrong) but less self healing and avoidance than assassins. They also get a death grip (harpoon/grapple) and a charge (storm/jet charge).

 

Assassins/Shadows have the most self healing if that's what you're looking for when you say Death Knight. They passively heal a bit when their tanking stance procs damage and have a talent that makes force lightning heal them via a stacking buff from shock and wither. They have a mix of melee and 10 meter range abilities and I've heard they have the best single target DPS of the tanks, not sure though. Assassins get a death grip (force pull), and a very short cooldown sprint (force speed).

Edited by WinterWraith
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Speaking from my experience on my shadow, tanking with a shadow/assassin is a little bit more of a gamble than the others. There have been times where I've practically solo tanked bosses in flashpoints, and then there are times where I've been smashed by an overly large group of standard mobs (in both instances the healer had bugged/died). The glory moments come a lot more often than the /facepalm moments, but it is something I've run into that you might consider.
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As far as I know there's a slight difference, something like Assassins having 5% more avoidance and 5% less mitigation. I don't know the exact numbers.

 

Assassins also have more trouble keeping Dark Ward up against multiple targets than a single powerful one. It's a 15% shield chance buff with 8 charges that uses a charge every time they shield. Large groups can beat through the charges before the cooldown finishes, but against a boss you can usually keep it up constantly.

 

Edit: They aren't avoidance tanks in the sense that they lack all mitigation, their tank stance buffs their armor fairly close to heavy. They're just a bit behind the other two in armor at the moment, but still quite workable.

Edited by WinterWraith
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I played a Frost tank through Wrath, and I find myself pretty comfortable as a Shadow. I`ve also played Guardian, but not Vanguard enough to comment on that.

 

As a Shadow, the play essentially comes down to watching for Particle Acceleration procs and using your Harnessed Shadow stacks. Force (Essentially WoW Rogue`s Energy) is much more straight forward than Runes, and I find myself rarely low when I need it as long as I`m paying attention.

 

I fully recommend them. My only gripe being that the story kind of sucks, but if you go Assassin that solves that. Hope I helped.

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Assassins have some of the highest avoidance as tank spec. I think my Sin has about 25.xx% chance to dodge/deflect an attack. They shield about as much as a Powertech, but powertech has less pure avoidance, my shield chance is something like 49% with 41% absorb. Assassins have lower flat damage mitigation from armor than the other 2 tanks, something along the lines of roughly 40% mitigation for Assassins where the other tanks have roughly 50%.

 

Those are the prime differences in terms of tanking stats.

 

From here I'll just talk about assassin playstyle/abilities because thats what I know. (Havent played tank as the other classes)

 

The assassin has passive self heals via Dark Charge, they are a set number with an internal CD and do not scale from gear. (I'm hoping the scaling changes, but only time will tell) At lvl 50 its like 450 health on a 4.5sec CD. There is another ability that will temporarily lower the ICD on this passive healing.

 

We have active healing from Force Lightning with 3 stacks of Harnessed Darkness. Harnessed Darkness is a stacking buff that proc's from using other tanking abilities. Once you have 3 stacks you can use Force Lightning(3 sec Channel) and you will receive 3 or 4 ticks of healing as you do damage, each tick heals for 3 or 4% health. (I dont remember the exact numbers but it is definitely 3 or 4%)

 

We do great single target damage and usually have no single target threat issues. Our AOE threat is somewhere in the middle. Worse than Powertech, but better than Juggernauts.

 

We have some pretty decent tanking utility spells: Force Pull (like Death Grip, Powertechs also have this), Force Speed (like rogue sprint only shorter duration, this is exclusive to the inquisitor/sage class), Mind Trap (exactly like rogue sap) Force Shroud (basically like rogue cloak of shadows)

 

I could go on and on but I'll stop here. If you are looking to compare SWTOR Tanks to WOW tanks then you will probably find that Assassin plays closest to a hybrid of Death Knight (because of avoidance and self heals) and Pre Cataclysm Paladins (because of our Dark Ward spell which helps to shield attacks but has a short duration/ # of charges and needs to be reapplied frequently, very similar to paladin Holy Shield)

 

Oh and on the topic of Biochem Vs Artificing: The only benefit I have found for artificing at end game is you can craft top tier relic for yourself. Biochem will give you reusable Stims(Flasks) and reusable Adrenals(Armor/Dmg Potions) Personally I think Biochem is the choice hands down.

 

If you have other questions, just ask. I'll keep an eye on this thread.

Edited by Dukibritches
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Some great things about the assassin/shadow:

 

1. Self healing. Harnessed Darkness, or whatever the shadow version is, will heal you for 12% of your health and deal a lot of damage. That's in addition to the passive healing on attacks--I frequently get at least 20k healing done in WZ's (I'm not 50 yet).

 

2. Stealth. As a tie-in, you get your own cc, unlike the other tanks. When pugging, I think being able to apply cc on your own is a large advantage. Plus, you can vanish if for some reason you're the last one standing and you want to avoid a repair bill.

 

3. Damage. From what I've seen, we do a lot better single-target damage than the other tanks.

 

4. PvP. The tanking spec is uber in PvP.

 

Not-so-great:

 

1. Aoe tanking. Aggro is hard to hold until you get Wither (31-point talent). We're always weak multitanking because of our self-buff to shield chance. It has 8 charges and a 15s cooldown, which works great against two enemies but poorly against more.

 

2. Armor. Until level 30ish, you'll have equivalent to medium armor. After you pick up the +20% armor talent, you'll be slightly below heavy.

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As a Blood DK tank during the WotLK era of WoW, before the buffs, after the buffs, and after the nerfs, I find my Assassin to be the most similar.

 

And for crafting, at 50, biochem is great, for the additional cooldown (the 1725 armor for 15s adrenal), always having a stim (end/def or willpower/power), and the reusable heal.

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Do assassins also use avoidance as a main source of mitigation?

 

Well that would be assassins, however, people on these forums are very loose with the definition of "avoidance". Assassins have a buff that gives them a very high chance to block an attack with their shield. But a shield in SWTOR only mitigates around 40% of the damage.

 

I come from EQ where avoidance means completley dodging an attack for zero damage.

 

In SWTOR a succesful defense check mitigates 100% of damage and blocking with a shield absorbs between 30-40% depending on your absorb rating. (It can go higher but i don't see many people over 40%)

 

I don't believe any of the tanks have a significant advantage in the defense stat.

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Wow, thanks so much for the input everyone. Special thank you to Dukibritches who is amazingly informative. It is really hard to find people who will make the comparison, even loosely, to WoW without flaming hard about it.

 

Now, I'm off to start leveling my Tankassin. :jawa_biggrin:

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Well that would be assassins, however, people on these forums are very loose with the definition of "avoidance". Assassins have a buff that gives them a very high chance to block an attack with their shield. But a shield in SWTOR only mitigates around 40% of the damage.

 

I come from EQ where avoidance means completley dodging an attack for zero damage.

 

In SWTOR a succesful defense check mitigates 100% of damage and blocking with a shield absorbs between 30-40% depending on your absorb rating. (It can go higher but i don't see many people over 40%)

 

I don't believe any of the tanks have a significant advantage in the defense stat.

 

In terms of pure avoidance, as I said in a post earlier assassins have a decent amount. I have 25.xx% chance to dodge/deflect attacks on my assassin. I think Powertechs have much less, something like 12 or 13% but they have higher mitigation from armor and I believe a little bit more absorb.

 

I dont really have any data on Juggernauts because I dont have one myself and I dont have any I raid with either.

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In terms of pure avoidance, as I said in a post earlier assassins have a decent amount. I have 25.xx% chance to dodge/deflect attacks on my assassin. I think Powertechs have much less, something like 12 or 13% but they have higher mitigation from armor and I believe a little bit more absorb.

 

I dont really have any data on Juggernauts because I dont have one myself and I dont have any I raid with either.

 

My jugg in columni is also 25/26% defense. I never understood why so many people say assassin are the avoidance tank.

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My jugg in columni is also 25/26% defense. I never understood why so many people say assassin are the avoidance tank.

 

I would assume its because the combination of Defense and high shield/Absorb would mean they avoid the most damage of all the tank classes. Doesnt mean we are better tanks, just means that we can avoid more damage. Obviously this is offset by the fact that when we do take a hit it lands for more damage than on a Juggernaut or Powertech.

 

I really think that tanks are pretty well balanced in the game right now. I dont think any tank has an overall advantage over other tank classes. Situationally one might do better than another, but I personally wouldnt leave one class behind because the other is better for an encounter.

Edited by Dukibritches
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As far as flashpoints and aoe threat (at level 50), wither and discharge provide more than enough to keep mobs interested.

 

Most of the flashpoint trashpacks can be cleared by applying mind trap to a random strong/elite, shocking the inevitable far away mob, hitting wither/discharge on the bigger pack and then just focusing on the strongs and elites. Your dps will in general kill all the normal mobs faster than the healer can pull agro from them.

There are hardly any flashpoint boss fights where you have to actively keep agro on multiple targets. For such fights, 10 meter range of wither / discharge, and randomly shocking or 3stack lightning to the offtanked monster is more than enough to keep it off the healer.

 

Any flashpoint boss that summons adds, the spawned adds can usually be picked up by one wither due to its 10 meter range. However, in those cases assassins do have a disadvantage, in the sense that you might drop your shield chance buff too fast, becoming the squishiest tank of the three.

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Any flashpoint boss that summons adds, the spawned adds can usually be picked up by one wither due to its 10 meter range.

 

Range != Radius.

 

Slow Time/Wither and Force Breach/Discharge have radii of 5m and a range of 10m. If you use Slow Time/With on a target 10m away from you, it won't hit a target that is standing on top of you because the radius of the effect is only 5m.

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Except that shielding is not avoidance!

 

I agree that shielding is not the same as avoidance in the truest sense of the word, but in reality when you shield an attack, you are avoiding the damage that is shielded. It may not be the whole attack but you ARE AVOIDING part of the damage.

 

Combine this with our high defense chance and Juggernauts lower shield chance and people make the assumption that Assassins are the games "Avoidance" tanks.

 

Its all in the eye of the beholder.

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Assassins/Shadows have more hitpoints than the other two tanks, and the best Shield/Absorb rates.

 

HOWEVER...

 

Shield and Absorb is useless in many fights. Soa for example will never cause your Shield Chance to proc and reduce damage.

 

 

Assassins/Shadows have the lowest damage reduction from what I've noticed. I have a 50 Jug and 50 Assassin, both similarly geared in Rakata and Columi, and my Reduction is in the mid 50% on the Jug and only mid 40% on the Assassin.

 

 

 

As someone else stated, all Tanks can do the job. But in Ops, I think against Bosses, Juggernauts/Guardians have the advantage, while against trash, Assassins/Shadows shine more. I do think Powertechs/Vanguards have the best of both worlds though, and are probably the slightly superior tanks (only slightly though).

Edited by Toogeloo
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Combine this with our high defense chance and Juggernauts lower shield chance and people make the assumption that Assassins are the games "Avoidance" tanks.

 

First off, Guard/Juggs are actually the tanks with the highest Defense and the greatest desire for it. Shad/Sins start off with 10% defense and get 4% more from talents. Guard/Juggs start off with 5% and get 10% with talents. Without factoring in gear, Guard/Juggs actually have higher defense chance (by 1%).

 

It's hard to define which class is the "Avoidance" class largely because of the difficulty in exactly defining "avoidance". Traditionally, avoidance tanks had lower outright damage reduction and made up for it with higher chance based mechanisms to avoid the damage. In this sense, Shad/Sins *are* the Avoidance tanks of TOR: they have the lowest K/E damage reduction of any tank class (~40% for a Shad/Sin tank, 50% for a Guard/Jugg tank, and 53% for a VG/PT tank). Since Shad/Sins are roughly tied for the highest defense chance, have the outright highest shield chance, and the outright lowest damage reduction, it's pretty easy to arrive at the conclusion that Shad/Sins are the designed "Avoidance" tanks of TOR. Of course, since all of the tanks use all of the available tanking mechanisms (Defense, Shield + Absorb, Damage Reduction, Self Heals/Damage Shields), the claim that there *isn't* an Avoidance tank in game is just as legitimate: it depends on whether you place more value upon assignment of a binary trait (Avoidance tanking is either true or false) or prefer to treat it as a sliding scale (VG/PTs are the 40% Avoidance based; Guard/Juggs are 45% Avoidance based; Shad/Sins are 65% Avoidance based).

 

Either way, it doesn't really matter: all of the TOR tanks are like themselves more than they are like any class from previous games. Determining which class is more like another class is less important than simply figuring out which one you enjoy playing the most.

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