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Gear: Pvp Vs Pve


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Ok first i would just like to say i am very tired of hearing the same old same old, Pvp gear is fine in pve, but pve is not ok in pvp. ok i get it, expertise is king in pvp. but at the same time im geting tired of the same people then bringing pvp gear to a ops. they should make it so that pvp gear is only good in pvp. otherwise why shouldn't pve be ok for pvp? sure its a quick easy set to get. but its not the point. the gear is made for one thing or the other, it shouldnt then be accepctable to work in the other, unless its both capable. ./end rant. and fyi i am not pvping in pve gear nor pveing in pvp gear. just wish the devs would fix it. Edited by Corsairr
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PvP gear in PvE is just as good as PvE gear in PvP.... and by that I mean they both are much weaker then the appropriate equivalent.

 

You should immediately assume that anyone who is doing this is basically the weak link in the group comp (unless another member is clearly under geared to the content itself).

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PvP gear in PvE is just as good as PvE gear in PvP.... and by that I mean they both are much weaker then the appropriate equivalent.

 

You should immediately assume that anyone who is doing this is basically the weak link in the group comp (unless another member is clearly under geared to the content itself).

 

I'd rather someone brought Battlemaster than lvl49s. In many cases, a Battlemaster piece is significantly better than the equivalent Columni. I've often hit 50 with 3.5k ranked WZ comms, and 2k normal comms, and moved into nearly full Battlemaster. Storymode operations are definitely do-able in that condition.

 

Also, many, many theorycrafters argue that BIS relic for almost every class is the Warhero Relic of Boundless Ages (situationally slightly less attractive than matrix cube). As far as I know, there is nothing better.

 

The reason PvE gear is such a huge disadvantage in PvP is expertise: there's no equivalent for PvE. Yes, your stats are slightly lower than equivalent tier PvE equipment (often most pronounced in terms of HP), but you're not doing a solid 30% less damage or taking a solid 30% more damage.

 

In my experience, severely undergeared players who know what they're doing can perform very well in PvE content. Even a very good PvPer with zero expertise is going to have an extremely hard time in Wzs.

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They could make it where expertise would count against you in pve situations, for example where it gives 20% damage increase in pvp, in pve that could be a 20% damage decrease. That would force people to have a pvp set for pvp and a separate pve set for pve. This would force people that want to do both to go through double the grind (grinding for war hero and separately grinding for campaign) which would suck for some people, it just all depends on what bioware wants and what they figure the pvp gear should be equivalent to in pve. If they do this though I wish they would make two tabs for gear on your character sheet. One where you slot your pvp gear and one where you slot your pve gear.
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I'd rather someone brought Battlemaster than lvl49s. In many cases, a Battlemaster piece is significantly better than the equivalent Columni. I've often hit 50 with 3.5k ranked WZ comms, and 2k normal comms, and moved into nearly full Battlemaster. Storymode operations are definitely do-able in that condition.

 

Also, many, many theorycrafters argue that BIS relic for almost every class is the Warhero Relic of Boundless Ages (situationally slightly less attractive than matrix cube). As far as I know, there is nothing better.

 

The reason PvE gear is such a huge disadvantage in PvP is expertise: there's no equivalent for PvE. Yes, your stats are slightly lower than equivalent tier PvE equipment (often most pronounced in terms of HP), but you're not doing a solid 30% less damage or taking a solid 30% more damage.

 

In my experience, severely undergeared players who know what they're doing can perform very well in PvE content. Even a very good PvPer with zero expertise is going to have an extremely hard time in Wzs.

 

The majority of your statements fit into the category where PvP gear > under geared players. But that right there is already a problem since the player you are comparing to is under geared for the content. It's the worst player to compare to. It's like comparing a full rakata set to recruit gear, you just don't do it.

 

My point is that the bonus (or lack there of) of using the wrong gear is pretty equivalent. You can use high end PvP gear to clear basic PvE content just as you can compete in normal PvP matches with high end PvE gear (You only get destroyed by people in full BM/WR gear as expected). Both sets would fail miserably once taken to the higher end levels (Ranked matches/ EC).

 

Also, the relics are the exclusion since the abilities don't involve expertise. (If you could use the PvE relics in PvP, wouldn't you?)

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For a dps player, Battlemaster is close enough to Columi as long as you get 2 "boundless ages" relics (they add +206 power). The only thing you're missing out on is health.

 

I did an AskMrRobot workup:

 

Full Columi Eliminator set:

983 damage

27% crit

64% surge

18k health

 

Full Battlemaster Eliminator set:

1009 damage

27% crit

72% surge

15k health

 

I'd bring a Battlemaster-geared dps to an op as long as they were on voice chat and knew what they were doing.

 

I wouldn't however, bring a Battlemaster-geared tank, that's a different story.

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For a dps player, Battlemaster is close enough to Columi as long as you get 2 "boundless ages" relics (they add +206 power). The only thing you're missing out on is health.

 

I did an AskMrRobot workup:

 

Full Columi Eliminator set:

983 damage

27% crit

64% surge

18k health

 

Full Battlemaster Eliminator set:

1009 damage

27% crit

72% surge

15k health

 

I'd bring a Battlemaster-geared dps to an op as long as they were on voice chat and knew what they were doing.

 

I wouldn't however, bring a Battlemaster-geared tank, that's a different story.

 

Just want to check if you're using PvP relics for BOTH gear sets or just the Battlemaster one as that will skew your stats.

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Really because the current PvE content is so easy you don't need that much gear for any of the Ops.

 

HM EC requires Full itemized Rakata - stock Rakata is terrible.

 

Nothing in the game right now requires Black Hole/Campaign gear.

 

You can do Story EV/KP in Recruit and HM EV/KP in Battlemaster.

 

You could try Nightmare EV/KP in Battlemaster but I suspect that you would have one heck of a tough time.

 

You can do HM LI in a Recruit Battlemaster mix so FPs are EZ.

 

HM EC would require itemized War Hero with 14/14 Augments. It would be doable, but tough (you might need datacron bonus).

I guess you could do it as a self-imposed challenge, but that's what 8 manning 16 man Ops is for;)

Edited by AshlaBoga
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Given that a proc relic and an on use relic don't give static bonuses you should be either ignoring the relics or using the same ones in both item sets. Anyway, relics aren't really part of the item set and can be swaped out depending on playstyle/encounter requirements,

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I'd rather bring full Columi guys rather than full Battlemaster regardless of stats for the simple reason that the Columi guy is experienced in PVE. The guy in full Battlemaster may have no idea how to clear endgame trash or how the boss fights work. Bioware made it clear in Denova that you have to have experience with raiding and knowledge of the boss fights to clear that content and most likely future content as well.
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PvP gear is good for starting PvE just because HM FP grind is just very long. Those who don't like it (like me) can gear up for PvE by getting full BM set plus War Hero relics, then diving right into EV/KP HM for Rakata. Tionese is completely useless, and Columi is also skippable (although you will still get it in EV/KP HM so may just as well use).

Before 1.3 it was the only sensible way to gear up IMO. Now with the addition of Group Finder and better rewards you can just as well do HM FPs, but the PvP way still works.

 

It does not work backwards (the best PvE gear is worse than Recruit in PvP), but that's why they give free Recruit set, so all in all quite fair. If they make PvP gear useless in PvE, they need to give free Tionese set or smth like that to even up.

Edited by Lightning_
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It does not work backwards (the best PvE gear is worse than Recruit in PvP), but that's why they give free Recruit set, so all in all quite fair. If they make PvP gear useless in PvE, they need to give free Tionese set or smth like that to even up.

 

I really like to know how you can claim this one. If I have full Campaign and BH gear and PvP against someone in recruit gear... They are going to kick my ***?

 

The damage reduction from the set is 15.40% at the loss of 25% of the total HP (500 endurance x 10 = 5000HP) so that's a handicap right there.

 

The bonus damage from the set is 18.20% at the cost of 500 of your primary stat (100 bonus damage and 3% crit), 100 surge (5%) , 50 crit (1%) and 250 power (57.5 bonus damage). Total loss of 157.5 bonus damage, 4% crit, and 5% surge....plus a set bonus. Assuming you started at around 1000 bonus damage from Campaign gear, the bonus damage loss alone is 15.75% damage. That set bonus could also be a huge determent depending on what class you are playing.

 

I don't see any reason why you would make the assumption that high end PvE gear would be absolutely worthless for PvP if your only choice was the recruit set. It works just as well as WH gear in EV/KP (mediocre).

 

Either way, your going to get destroyed by BM/WH players...

Edited by Codek
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...

 

It does not work backwards (the best PvE gear is worse than Recruit in PvP), but that's why they give free Recruit set, so all in all quite fair.

 

...

I asked about this on the PvP forums and didn't get an adequate answer.

 

Are you claiming this because you know for sure? Or you just think so?

 

I've been thinking about getting into PvP. When I swap my PvE gear for recruit I lose 35% of my health and 25% of my dps. My instinct is to keep my PvE gear and grind Battlemaster and don't even bother with Recruit. I've had 3 people disagree with me, but nobody has given any concrete explanation.

 

Can you?

Edited by JeffKretz
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I asked about this on the PvP forums and didn't get an adequate answer.

 

Are you claiming this because you know for sure? Or you just think so?

 

I've been thinking about getting into PvP. When I swap my PvE gear for recruit I lose 35% of my health and 25% of my dps. My instinct is to keep my PvE gear and grind Battlemaster and don't even bother with Recruit. I've had 3 people disagree with me, but nobody has given any concrete explanation.

 

Can you?

 

Full Campaign gear is mathmatically better then the recruit set in PvP in 1v1 situation. As soon as it becomes 1v2 (or worse) Campaign starts to fall behind by rather large amount. As PvP is very rarely 1v1 you are almost always better off going with the recruit set.

 

Caveat: Once you get to 1000 to 1100 expertise swapping out PvP gear for Campaign/BH gear is beneficial as long as your expertise stays above 1000.

 

For Pve I use this:

 

Campaing/Rakata/BH > War Hero > BattleMaster = Columi > Tionese > Recruit

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I'd rather bring full Columi guys rather than full Battlemaster regardless of stats for the simple reason that the Columi guy is experienced in PVE. The guy in full Battlemaster may have no idea how to clear endgame trash or how the boss fights work. Bioware made it clear in Denova that you have to have experience with raiding and knowledge of the boss fights to clear that content and most likely future content as well.

 

I don't understand this at all. 100% of my alts post-1.2 came into their first operations in recruit or battlemaster. That doesn't mean I'm inexperienced at PvE content.

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Full Campaign gear is mathmatically better then the recruit set in PvP in 1v1 situation. As soon as it becomes 1v2 (or worse) Campaign starts to fall behind by rather large amount. As PvP is very rarely 1v1 you are almost always better off going with the recruit set.

 

Caveat: Once you get to 1000 to 1100 expertise swapping out PvP gear for Campaign/BH gear is beneficial as long as your expertise stays above 1000.

 

For Pve I use this:

 

Campaing/Rakata/BH > War Hero > BattleMaster = Columi > Tionese > Recruit

 

Can you go into more details on why expertise would be more beneficial for 1v2 over 1v1? It's the same bonus and same damage going in and out so I don't quiet follow where the change occurs.

 

Or at least link a source that could explain it?

Edited by Codek
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Can you go into more details on why expertise would be more beneficial for 1v2 over 1v1? It's the same bonus and same damage going in and out so I don't quiet follow where the change occurs.

 

Or at least link a source that could explain it?

 

Mitigation & Healing. If you're not being healed then the situation being 1v2 doesn't really change anything but if you are then the " extra HP = extra damage reduction " balance is quickly annihilated. The fact that you are taking much bigger hits means that (1) the enemy team will focus you more because they like big numbers and (2) My heals on you are going to be 20% less effective than my heals on other people. I'd rather heal somebody in Recruit gear than somebody in Rakata gear because the guy in PVE gear will go down far quicker than I can heal - often even in only 1 on 1 situations. You buy 1 or 2 extra hits but pay the price of being impossible to keep up in the long term.

 

Now, if you are ranged DPS and can hide at the back and avoid getting focused then the situation isn't quite so bad. Similarly, if you are a tank then the larger HP will often be more useful than the increased mitigation as long as you don't mind effectively being ablative armor for a healer and dying regularly (CC and taunts are unaffected by gear.) For anyone who is going to actually be directly attacked, though, Recruit gear is better.

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Mitigation & Healing. If you're not being healed then the situation being 1v2 doesn't really change anything but if you are then the " extra HP = extra damage reduction " balance is quickly annihilated. The fact that you are taking much bigger hits means that (1) the enemy team will focus you more because they like big numbers and (2) My heals on you are going to be 20% less effective than my heals on other people. I'd rather heal somebody in Recruit gear than somebody in Rakata gear because the guy in PVE gear will go down far quicker than I can heal - often even in only 1 on 1 situations. You buy 1 or 2 extra hits but pay the price of being impossible to keep up in the long term.

 

Now, if you are ranged DPS and can hide at the back and avoid getting focused then the situation isn't quite so bad. Similarly, if you are a tank then the larger HP will often be more useful than the increased mitigation as long as you don't mind effectively being ablative armor for a healer and dying regularly (CC and taunts are unaffected by gear.) For anyone who is going to actually be directly attacked, though, Recruit gear is better.

 

Valid point, and I understand where that can help.

 

But I still hesitate to consider that it is enough to deem recruit gear greater then any PvE gear for starting off in.

 

As a healer, I personally look at my fellow team make-up and choose who I think can help the team the most and set them as my top priority for healing. Both recruit gear and PvE gear are very low on this list so unless everyone else in my range to heal is all set, that healing is imo wasted anyways (God forbid the entire team is made up of this...).

Edited by Codek
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Mitigation & Healing. If you're not being healed then the situation being 1v2 doesn't really change anything but if you are then the " extra HP = extra damage reduction " balance is quickly annihilated. The fact that you are taking much bigger hits means that (1) the enemy team will focus you more because they like big numbers and (2) My heals on you are going to be 20% less effective than my heals on other people. I'd rather heal somebody in Recruit gear than somebody in Rakata gear because the guy in PVE gear will go down far quicker than I can heal - often even in only 1 on 1 situations. You buy 1 or 2 extra hits but pay the price of being impossible to keep up in the long term.

 

Now, if you are ranged DPS and can hide at the back and avoid getting focused then the situation isn't quite so bad. Similarly, if you are a tank then the larger HP will often be more useful than the increased mitigation as long as you don't mind effectively being ablative armor for a healer and dying regularly (CC and taunts are unaffected by gear.) For anyone who is going to actually be directly attacked, though, Recruit gear is better.

Hmm. Interesting. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. I get two vastly different results depending on enemy dps vs friendly heals.

 

My current PvE gear gets me 20k hp and 4853 armor for a total of 31% damage reduction.

My Recruit gear gets me 13k hp and 4332 armor for 28% damage reduction + 15% pvp damage reduction

 

Let's say I'm being focused by 2 people, each doing 1000 dps and being healed by a third for 1000 hps.

 

2000 dps - 31% damage reduction = 1380 dps - 1000 hps = 380 dps

20,000k / 380dps = 52 seconds to die

 

2000 dps - 43% damage reduction = 1140 dps - 1100 hps (10% expertise healing boost) = 40 dps

13,000k / 40dps = 325 seconds to die

 

If we add a third 1000 dps focusing fire, it looks like this:

3000 dps - 31% = 2070 dps - 1000 hps = 1070 dps

20,000 / 1070 = 19 seconds to die

 

3000 dps - 43% damage reduction = 1710 dps - 1100 hps = 610 dps

13,000 / 610 = 21 seconds to die

 

Correct me if my math is off here, but it seems that the more dps I'm taking (compared to healing) the less effective my Recruit gear will be relative to my PvE gear.

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Hmm. Interesting. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. I get two vastly different results depending on enemy dps vs friendly heals.

 

My current PvE gear gets me 20k hp and 4853 armor for a total of 31% damage reduction.

My Recruit gear gets me 13k hp and 4332 armor for 28% damage reduction + 15% pvp damage reduction

 

Let's say I'm being focused by 2 people, each doing 1000 dps and being healed by a third for 1000 hps.

 

2000 dps - 31% damage reduction = 1380 dps - 1000 hps = 380 dps

20,000k / 380dps = 52 seconds to die

 

2000 dps - 43% damage reduction = 1140 dps - 1100 hps (10% expertise healing boost) = 40 dps

13,000k / 40dps = 325 seconds to die

 

If we add a third 1000 dps focusing fire, it looks like this:

3000 dps - 31% = 2070 dps - 1000 hps = 1070 dps

20,000 / 1070 = 19 seconds to die

 

3000 dps - 43% damage reduction = 1710 dps - 1100 hps = 610 dps

13,000 / 610 = 21 seconds to die

 

Correct me if my math is off here, but it seems that the more dps I'm taking (compared to healing) the less effective my Recruit gear will be relative to my PvE gear.

 

Your looking at it from a strange direction. First you should forget about the 1v1 and 2v1 conjecture because that really had nothing to do with it. The big thing is how taking less damage = less healing required from the healers

 

It's all based of the fact that your basically trading HP for damage reduction, so from the healers point of view, that 5k hit becomes a 4k hit which is less healing needed in general. As long as the healer can keep you up, your max HP is irrelevant so an overall gain in survival is obtained.

 

Going back to the 2v1 issue, having 2 people hitting for 5k means the healers resources are being spent much faster then if you are taking 4k hits from both enemies.

 

 

This of course is assuming that a healer will actually strain them self out to keep you alive for a long period of time. If no such individual is around, then your max HP becomes a factor again.

Edited by Codek
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^^^

 

This is a good point, and sorry to derail this thread which was mainly looking at taking PvP gear into a PvE situation.

 

As it currently stands, if I end up in a premade I'll ask what they prefer and switch gear accordingly. Otherwise, I'll probably just grind BM gear with my current setup replacing as I go along.

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Your looking at it from a strange direction. First you should forget about the 1v1 and 2v1 conjecture because that really had nothing to do with it. The big thing is how taking less damage = less healing required from the healers

 

It's all based of the fact that your basically trading HP for damage reduction, so from the healers point of view, that 5k hit becomes a 4k hit which is less healing needed in general. As long as the healer can keep you up, your max HP is irrelevant so an overall gain in survival is obtained.

 

Going back to the 2v1 issue, having 2 people hitting for 5k means the healers resources are being spent much faster then if you are taking 4k hits from both enemies.

 

 

This of course is assuming that a healer will actually strain them self out to keep you alive for a long period of time. If no such individual is around, then your max HP becomes a factor again.

 

If the OP is going to be solo queueing, half the time he won't have a healer anyway so your point is situational at best.

 

I wouldn't bother with Recruit gear if you have Rakata or Black Hole. Recruit is BAD. PVE Gear is BAD. You're probably not going to be effective in either gear, (especially if you're new to PVP).

 

People like to keep beating this topic to death and ignore the fact that neither set of gear is very good.

 

Full BM can take as little as 2 days to get depending on your play time. Even casual players can get it done in a week or two.

 

You're going to die a lot until then either way.

Edited by pureeffinmetal
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PVP gear is fine for most of the PVE content in the game. I did a HM LI on my Sent (missing two pieces of WH, all augs) and had some Rakata/some BH geared Sentinel raging at me for being there in PVP gear... His bonus damage was over 100 less than mine, his crit was enormously too high (almost 40%), and his surge was over 10% less than mine. I'm assuming he either had no clue where his stats needed to be/was using stock gear/both. He had a whopping 1800 more health than me. Sure, his mainstat was higher, but that's irrelvant when you look at his actual important stats. I had absolutely no trouble tanking all the HM FPs (yes, including LI, it's not hard if you know the fights) in BM gear on my Jugg and I will probably tank an op or two this week. Just haven't cared about PVE until recently.

 

The difference between BM and the equivalent level PVE gear is largely just an epic mainstat aug. I believe WH to Campaign/BH is bigger but overall probably not that big of a deal, either. No sense whining about it.

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