It's very noticeable, even just doing heroics on the leveling planets with good gear at level 70.

In MM FPs or Ops, the difference is even worse. It also makes tanks less fun to play - you really don't do much damage with your heavy-hitters, and are just there to stand there and be beat on.

The few developers still working on SWTOR need to think more about what is fun to do in the game and why when making changes.

Also, I'm not an expert in PVP by any means, but I still see plenty of tanks in dps gear.

- you really don't do much damage with your heavy-hitters, and are just there to stand there and be beat on. .

I'm under the impression that that's exactly what tanks are for - but, less simplistic than that.

Tanks are mainly responsible for keeping the boss busy and agroing mobs to both keep them off the healer and gather them up for AOEs. The damage dealing is done by the DPS - no one expects the tank to do much damage.

What few times I've levelled up a a character to be a tank, I configured them as DPS for most of the way and only started tanking in the later stages and flashpoints. I found that trying to level up as a tank, solo, was too slow.

and agroing mobs to both keep them off the healer and gather them up for AOEs.

You know what helps keep aggro, especially when your taunts are on cooldown? Threat. What is an important part of threat generation? Doing adequate damage.

Tanks need certain heavy hitters in their rotation. If these are nerfed too much, not only is it less fun to play a tank, but they don't function as well either.

This also doesn't address tight dps checks in harder Operation modes in which tank damage contributes.

The tank nerf has made them unenjoyable for ANYTHING solo imo. My tanks will never do another solo activity ever - it's THAT unenjoyable to me.

How much survivability was added with the change though? Are they actually more tanky? I remember WAR, and tanks were little DPS, extreme survivors with tons of DCDs and CC abilities (knockbacks, knockdowns, punts, etc.)

Even though tanks on WAR did little damage, they were still fun though because they were so hard to kill. As a tank, guarding others and being hard to kill was what made them enjoyable.

You know what helps keep aggro, especially when your taunts are on cooldown? Threat. What is an important part of threat generation? Doing adequate damage.

 

Tanks need certain heavy hitters in their rotation. If these are nerfed too much, not only is it less fun to play a tank, but they don't function as well either.

 

This also doesn't address tight dps checks in harder Operation modes in which tank damage contributes.

AND

The tank nerf has made them unenjoyable for ANYTHING solo imo. My tanks will never do another solo activity ever - it's THAT unenjoyable to me.

Spend any time on Ossus and you'll see people begging for Tanks and Healers for group content.

The problem is multi-faceted.

Playing solo-content on Tanks, is a TUX said, totally unenjoyable.

If you are built Heal for end-game Healers have the same issue - solo content is a chore.

So people spec into DPS and run solo, and then all of their gear drops - from the worst gear grind the game has ever had - are DPS pieces.

And really, with this horrible gearing system who has time to fully equip a Tank, Healer and DPS and still have fun and a real-life?

You won't get more Tanks and Healers at end-game until two things happen:

1) Playing them solo is fun.

2) The gear grind is fixed.

This really isn't rocket science, but it does seem to be beyond the wit of the SWTOR Devs to figure it out.

All The Best

You won't get more Tanks and Healers at end-game until two things happen:

1) Playing them solo is fun.

2) The gear grind is fixed.

 

This really isn't rocket science, but it does seem to be beyond the wit of the SWTOR Devs to figure it out.

 

 

All The Best

I 100% agree!!! I won't take my tank through Ossus unless something changes. It's just not fun having to kill **** at a snails pace.

You won't get more Tanks and Healers at end-game until three things happen:

 

1) Playing them solo is fun.

2) The gear grind is fixed.

3) The devs play their own game and learn what's fun and what works.

How much survivability was added with the change though? Are they actually more tanky? I remember WAR, and tanks were little DPS, extreme survivors with tons of DCDs and CC abilities (knockbacks, knockdowns, punts, etc.)

 

Even though tanks on WAR did little damage, they were still fun though because they were so hard to kill. As a tank, guarding others and being hard to kill was what made them enjoyable.

Not much, if any. I only play my tank in Ops though, so maybe they're better in PvP now? But as far as Ops go, my tank functions the same as he did before, with far less damage.

I can hit 9k+ DPS on my DPS toons...my tank is lucky to hit 3k. 1/3rd the damage means it takes 3 times as long to kill anything, if not longer because when mobs heal, they do it more when I'm on my tank. It's pathetic. (pre nerf I was over 4k on him, which was adequate)

I stopped playing a couple years ago to just wait for content releases to come out which I went through two years worth of content on 2 toons in 11hours (across 3 days) a couple weeks ago since coming back... but I digress... what patch was it that this meet happened to tanks so I could look at what the specific changes were? And how’s the devs communication with the community in the forums? Any plans on more balancing for tanks in the future regarding their damage?

The devs change of tank DPS due to PvP (lets be frank, they said tanks were over performing and we all know it was just the PvP cry babies who scream and wail the loudest on forums like a day job) without the ability to, due to their own negligence in coding, keep PvP and PvE class stat pooles seperate is the most frustrating thing when nerfs like this happen as a result of PvE or PvP and subsequently affecting both though completely unecessary for one or the other...

Their nerfing of tanks globally because of PvPers hating the skank tank OP dps with survivability (yes the hate was warranted but now tanks all around have suffered because of the whine..) is like nerfing healers healing power globally because of PvP issues and now healing in PvE has lost its sense of viability and power. Yes power is hugely important.

You can say tanks aren’t suppose to do damage, which is extremely ignorant of the purpose of wielding a weapon (what’s the point then?), but players play mmo rpg games expecting all roles to give them a sense of great POWER, have awesome looking armor, and an amazing story. SWTOR has nailed story and I kowtow to biowares job with the story, it’s amazing and good enough to where I come back time and time again to experience it as a Star Wars fan to the extreme... SWTOR has nailed awesome looking armor (albeit limited to the garbage engine BioWare created from remnants of the Hero Engine...). BUT when nerfs like this happen to a tank(s), who before the nerf was already nothing close to dps damage (PvE), and any other nerfs that affect both PvE and PvP when they shouldn’t, it HUGELY AFFECTS that classes sense of power and viability.

It may all still work fine when it comes to numbers. But games are more about just numbers. It’s about feel. Excitement of your classes abilities (both class abilities and ability to do/take/heal damage). Authenticity. The fantasy of your class. And when changes are made that clearly weaken a class spec to the point of reaching dissatisfaction with your characters performance though it can still do it “job” is what ruins the feel of excitement and power.

Balance doesn’t and will never exist. It’s a comfort word for PvPers and dps parse competition junkies (much love, no disrespect I enjoy parsing and competing...). My hope is BioWare figures out how to keep PvE and PvP seperate. Keep PvE feeling the power and authenticity of their class and roles whilst keeping PvP as “balanced” as they(BioWare) are willing to invest in doing so with what devs are left maintaining SWTOR...

Threat generation is about half of what it use to be due to the damage nerf (in terms of damage done and threat generated against DPS’s damage and their threat generated, assuming both are geared) in PvE. Which is fine I mean I like the challenge of competing for threat, that’s not the issue, I hate feeling significantly weaker and armor upgrades don’t feel as valuable now at least in a “I’m growing in power” way.... I would have way rathered a threat generation nerf then a damage nerf, but that wouldn’t ever happen because this nerf was done due to tank damage overperformance in PvP, nothing to do with threat. So again, why the hell are PvP and PvE lumped together (rhetorical question)? Why after 7 years has this not changed? Just depressing especially knowing that it’s unlikely any developer maintains forums will even engage the conversation. It seems they either don’t care and this is a part time job for them and that’s it. Not a passion. Not a work in the arts. Just a normal flip the burger and keep the customer happy job. Which BioWare use to be different before they made the deal with the devil EA being bought out back in 2007... OR ea is not giving the SWTOR BioWare team enough resources to help this game and it’s community. Either or, just depressing...

Just my thoughts and feelings about this and many more things being projected (things regarding game and service issues) into the conversation, but feels good atleast to write it down... not looking for debate either if it’s going to be about a insulting dìck measuring intellect contest... but disagreeing with me and your point of view respectfully is welcome and I pray BioWare sees the OP at the very least... also anything I say in terms of how classes feel is completely subjective and my opinion, you may feel differently and I respect that completely!

Sorry as well for any typos, fat thumbs on phone pad... grammar police you’ve been warned and may be triggered (sorry this warning is at the end of the post).

The problem is multi-faceted.

 

Playing solo-content on Tanks, is a TUX said, totally unenjoyable.

If you are built Heal for end-game Healers have the same issue - solo content is a chore.

Adding dual spec similar to WoW's to the game would solve the problem for me (on my priest in WoW I was shadow dps spec for soloing and holy healer spec for raids & PvP with gear for all). I'd love to have my main SI who is currently specced lightning have the additional option to spec healer. Similar with my main Warrior Juggernaut who is specced Vengeance I'd love to have an additional spec for tanking. I'd happily do the gear grind for dual spec. I will not respec to suit a need for any reason as I've not had enough experience as tank or healer to be of use. Give us dual spec as that allows us to properly learn the both specs.

Not much, if any. I only play my tank in Ops though, so maybe they're better in PvP now? But as far as Ops go, my tank functions the same as he did before, with far less damage.

 

I can hit 9k+ DPS on my DPS toons...my tank is lucky to hit 3k. 1/3rd the damage means it takes 3 times as long to kill anything, if not longer because when mobs heal, they do it more when I'm on my tank. It's pathetic. (pre nerf I was over 4k on him, which was adequate)

A tank may do 33% of the damage of a DPS, but they can take the beating from 3-5x the NPCs that a DPS can which makes aoeing much more efficient and allows the tank to actually clear certain parts of content faster, and without needing to heal back up as often. Yes, a DPS can use a healer companion to stay alive more, but the tank can use a DPS companion to deal even more damage. Also, tanks generally have more stuns available, so healing NPCs should not be a TTK issue, but more player use of skills. This "issue" sounds more and more like players not using a classes optimal potential, and insyead just comparing the DPS of two classes with drastically different roles and strengths.

If you look at the game holistically, this is a non-issue that does not need to be re-evaluated at this time.

If you look at the game holistically, this is a non-issue that does not need to be re-evaluated at this time.

If you look at the game holistically there are not enough tanks, and not enough healers, and far too many DPSers.

So it is VERY MUCH an issue, that needs to be re-evaluated as a matter of urgency.

All The Best

If you look at the game holistically there are not enough tanks, and not enough healers, and far too many DPSers.

 

So it is VERY MUCH an issue, that needs to be re-evaluated as a matter of urgency.

 

 

All The Best

I don't think the lack of tanks and healers has so much to do with anything the devs can fix. The fact is that DPS is easy to play: push button, do damage. Tanks and healers are harder to play and require much more target switching, UI efficiency, and utilities in their rotations.. Tanks and healers also get blamed by other players when group content goes badly.

There's simply not a lot of incentive to be a tank or healer unless you're an exceptional tank or healer.

If you look at the game holistically there are not enough tanks, and not enough healers, and far too many DPSers.

 

So it is VERY MUCH an issue, that needs to be re-evaluated as a matter of urgency.

 

 

All The Best

How is this an issue? You cant force people to play a role they dont want to. All they can do is give the option and leave it up to the player to weigh their goals against their willingness to play a different spec.

And you really cant change accountability of tank roles to be similar to DPS roles. Tanks inherently have a monitoring system in place to determine how good the tank is at performing (i.e. the boss agroes or kills the raid), whereas low DPS performance cannot be isolated to a specific individual as easily or without a public parsing program, as performance is masked behind other DPSers in the group or raid. How do you propose changing accountability of roles to be equal holistically? Players (especially casuals) are naturally going to opt for the role that wont usually be under public scrutiny in the event of a failed run.

How is this an issue? You cant force people to play a role they dont want to. All they can do is give the option and leave it up to the player to weigh their goals against their willingness to play a different spec.

Well, this is true to a degree, but... You got to account for success and fun factor in MMOs regarding classes/specs. Naturally if the spec is either not enjoyable or a failure in performance people tend to not choose them for play.

I think the argument here is that too many people find the tank spec miserable now with how the gameplay has been changed. It's the game's responsibility to make sure they put out classes that are fun to play otherwise, people won't.

Well, this is true to a degree, but... You got to account for success and fun factor in MMOs regarding classes/specs. Naturally if the spec is either not enjoyable or a failure in performance people tend to not choose them for play.

 

I think the argument here is that too many people find the tank spec miserable now with how the gameplay has been changed. It's the game's responsibility to make sure they put out classes that are fun to play otherwise, people won't.

I would argue those players probably havent taken the time to learn the tank spec and/or applied its strengths appropriately, as we can see by the specific complaints within this thread. If they are running tank spec and fighting the same 2-4 npcs that a DPS spec can easily handle, then they arent pushing the tank spec to its potential. It CAN be fun if people use the specs strengths insead of trying to play it like a dps spec, which its not intended to be.

I don't think the lack of tanks and healers has so much to do with anything the devs can fix. The fact is that DPS is easy to play: push button, do damage. Tanks and healers are harder to play and require much more target switching, UI efficiency, and utilities in their rotations.. Tanks and healers also get blamed by other players when group content goes badly.

 

There's simply not a lot of incentive to be a tank or healer unless you're an exceptional tank or healer.

That's not true at all - Bioware could easily fix this by increasing their damage 20-30%. They've been nerfed far too hard and they've become unfun to play. Solo PvE requires 2 things...damage and heals. Tanking is absolutely worthless in solo activities because you still need your companion to heal. Healers can use a DPS companion and still do well in solo PvE. Nobody who knows what they're doing uses a tank companion.

The other aspects of your comments refer to group activities, where a tank still has value and can be fun to play...but they're pathetic in solo play.

Nobody who knows what they're doing uses a tank companion.

This simply isn't true. I do almost exclusively solo PvE content, and I frequently use a tank comp instead of a healer. I can take 5 seconds and heal after any given encounter, so I don't need constant healing during fights. The tank companion can absorb knockbacks and keep things clustered for easy disposal. In the vast majority of fights, a tank comp is preferable to a healer.

This simply isn't true. I do almost exclusively solo PvE content, and I frequently use a tank comp instead of a healer. I can take 5 seconds and heal after any given encounter, so I don't need constant healing during fights. The tank companion can absorb knockbacks and keep things clustered for easy disposal. In the vast majority of fights, a tank comp is preferable to a healer.

I didn't say nobody uses one...

I didn't say nobody uses one...

No, you just implied that anyone who does is wildly incompetent. Frankly, using a tank comp is far more efficient than using a healer in most cases.

Perhaps you're the one who doesn't know what you're doing.

That's not true at all - Bioware could easily fix this by increasing their damage 20-30%. They've been nerfed far too hard and they've become unfun to play. Solo PvE requires 2 things...damage and heals. Tanking is absolutely worthless in solo activities because you still need your companion to heal. Healers can use a DPS companion and still do well in solo PvE. Nobody who knows what they're doing uses a tank companion.

Why would a tank need a healing companion? They can absorb a ton of damage and kill dozens of nocs before even needing to heal up. Your statement alone shows lack of appropriate use of the tank spec. Use a dps companion, agro 15 npcs and burn them down together using a DCD or maybe 2, rinse repeat the 2nd pull of 15 more NPCs, and your initial DCDs will likely be available again. Meanwhile, the DPS spec is hitting their out of combat restoration skill to head into the 2nd set of 15 npcs. Again, tank spec played well, and with the correct companion actually has the potential to clear solo content much faster than a DPS. Note, this also depends on the content itself too, but that varies from planet to planet, quest to quest, goal to goal, and expansion to expanson.

No, you just implied that anyone who does is wildly incompetent. Frankly, using a tank comp is far more efficient than using a healer in most cases.

 

Perhaps you're the one who doesn't know what you're doing.

Perhaps. So maybe try to explain it to me - name a couple places where it's better, since you claim it's "most cases".

I'm not saying you're wrong...it all depends on the player...you seem confident that you're right and I'm wrong...so maybe in your case, it is better for you and how you play. You may be just as quick at completing things as I am too...but I have NEVER had a situation where I felt a tank companion would have been a better choice. I've done every bit of content in this game, so please give me examples of when a tanking companion is better than DPS/Healer. I do solo FPs, I've done every story mission...I honestly can't name a single time where a tank would have been better than a healer...not ONE time comes to mind...yet you think it's "most cases"...

As a DPS with a healing companion, I burn down mobs quickly, efficiently, I never need to waste time to stop and heal, I don't need to use DCDs, and my companion never needs me to heal him up either. I can pull as many mobs as I like and never worry about dying. If I lose agro on a gold or champion mob, it's easy to gain it back by focusing 1-2 attacks on that mob.

I still maintain that a tanking companion is worthless in solo PvE...but I welcome you to change my mind.