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Why Pre-made raid groups and fully equip ships, actually harm GSF and PvP matches.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Why Pre-made raid groups and fully equip ships, actually harm GSF and PvP matches.

NeverEvar's Avatar


NeverEvar
09.26.2015 , 02:36 AM | #111
Ok, First of all. Drak is playing very competitively and is not holding back very often.

But trough to be told...He should`t have to hold back. First it`s his time as well,

Second, did you considered the agro he is getting in any ship? Actually any pilot with reputation can tell you that it`s not that funny from time to time, especially when you are flying a casual t2 strike and 2+ good pilots joined the game mid. Everyone want`s to see that sign "Me killed <insert Aces name>

Third. Ask yourself what Drako could do? Allow someone to kill him? With the skill gap between the teams even a t3 scout is lethal.
Ok, you mentioned that he did not allow your team to cap....But you know...If Drak defended one node and Mika defended second one... 6 other pilots would taken the node anyway.

And why do you judge Drako on the actions of his entire team?

And fourth.

Actually you don`t need a premade to get a co-ordinated team. If you know the names of your team mates, and you flown with them, and against them a lot of games... They will co-ordinate. Most of the time even without using the ops chat.

And one fun fact about Voip...most of the time I`m using it...we aren't even talking about the match.

Good player will always know when to swap to what ship and where to be, to make the best impact on the game.

Lavaar's Avatar


Lavaar
09.26.2015 , 03:27 AM | #112
Verain, how I have missed your eloquence and grace. It was only earlier today that I lamented the absence of your ruthless and unabashed wisdom upon thy forum walls. It is genuinely refreshing, and despite my colorful language, I say these things without any sarcasm or ill-intent whatsoever.

You have, with one glorious post, managed to set the record straight, and cut through all the ******** on this matter. Nobody deserves a damn thing in this game. If you are getting farmed, get better, play harder, find teammates, learn the meta, and slowly climb your way out of the mud to victory. If you are losing, don't complain, don't expect pity, and you sure as hell better not expect others to alter their play style to affect you. If a dominant team decides to "go easy", "give them a sat" or any of the other half-*** mercy measures in a match, then that is entirely their prerogative to do so, but it is not an imperative. Shallowhal, while frustrated, is wrong, plain and simple. He expects people to take pity on him, and he wants to try to shame those in the dominant position into playing fairly because he feels sad that he lost a few games. He doesn't feel he deserves this, and he doesn't think its fair.

The feeling I get here is that most people at the top level in this game agree with us on this point, at least to some degree or another. Which is why I find it perplexing that in the past little while I have heard a myriad of complaints about myself and my friends being "unfair" from some of the last people who should ever be complaining about such a thing. I've seen attempts to shame me publicly in harbinger GSF chat for it by a pilot who sees no problem in tagging along with a dominant premade in order to focus a player that they do not personally agree with to prove a point. I've heard whining on the stream about "playing without a goalie" from a pilot who never helps out anyone other than his friends, even when other players ask for his help. I've even had a pilot who, on one server, has lost only 50 games out of over 1500 come find me and personally imply that queing as a large group against a smaller group is unsportsmanlike. I am quite frankly tired of the hypocrisy around here. If Hal is going to get hate on for complaining about being overwhelmed by some of the same pilots that have been hating on me for being overwhelming lately, then I feel that perhaps we are dealing with some bizarre form of community groupthink.

My hope is that this is simply the frustrations and the subsequent outbursts that are born of neglect that we feel due to the inattention of our absent devs, and that one glorious day they will return and solve all of our problems, but at this point, I am not holding my breath.

Happy flying!

Archonitek's Avatar


Archonitek
09.26.2015 , 05:16 AM | #113
Eclipse Squadron - Cedwic/Eclipse-seven - Pilot - The Ebon Hawk
Nova Squadron - Zemelda - Lieutenant - The Ebon Hawk
Red Squadron - Teerayne - Senior Spaceman - The Harbinger

caederon's Avatar


caederon
09.26.2015 , 09:45 AM | #114
Here are three weird facts that might change your mind about premades:

1. When both sides are fielding double premades, and they are actively trying to queue-sync, that means it is very likely that the sixteen best players on the server are playing against each other and not against hapless 2-shippers. Less experienced pilots are then left to engage in matches more appropriate to their skill level.

2. It takes no special qualifications to form a premade, or to join one! Anyone can do it. Any player can find several friends or even several enemies to invite to a group. If they accept, then you are IN A PREMADE! You will find that this in itself does not grant you any special powers, but does convey some level of certainty about who you will be getting into a match with.

3. Top pilots will very often give you a spot in an impromptu premade if you ask. This is a good chance for you to pick their brains and get advice, and also to have the security that you will be flying with one or more good players.

This message has been brought to you by Players On Premades, a non-profit taskforce dedicated to educating anyone who goes into the GSF channel and shouts incoherently about premades ruining things.

Despon

btbarrett's Avatar


btbarrett
09.26.2015 , 10:13 AM | #115
First off, I think it is probably in everyone's best interest if we tone down the rhetoric a smidge. The constant knock against ranked ground PvP is that the community is so toxic that it makes entry into that arena distasteful for all but the most resilient (or douchiest) players: I doubt any of us want to see that happen in GSF.

I understand that tensions run high when you get in a match and got ROFLstomped. Goodness knows I have been on the losing end of 50-4 matches or 1000-8 matches before and I agree that they are no fun. Unfortunately, it is just part of the game. I think we ought to make a concerted effort when were are on the losing end of an butt-whoopin' to just say "GG" and move on.

To Hal, if you are sick of running into Drak's premade there is a very easy solution: watch his stream and simply queue when he is in a match. Since Drak seems to stream all of his flight time, you could conceivably never have to queue against him again, if you were so inclined. If you aren't able to watch a stream AND play, I bet there is someone in GSF chat who can who will be able to assist you. Hell, you could wait on the pop, ask the people in the match if it is against Drak, and then make a decision on whether you wanted to take it or not.

I should say that I don't think that this is the best way to get better. Personally, I think that when you know you are going to get a beatdown you should focus on developing some skill during the match. Back when I was first starting out on Shadowlands we had a double premade of skilled pilots who played on a nightly basis. It sucked to lose game after game and I definitely cursed them under my breath a few times, but I also took those matches as an opportunity to learn how to be evasive or harass gunships. If you can't stomach a lopsided defeat (there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that) you can just back out of the game. I know that that isn't ideal, but it is far better than working yourself into a lather.

What isn't fair is to expect skilled players to handicap their own enjoyment of the game for your sake. I had a game on Harbinger this week where my group of random solo-queuers won a match 50-7. After the match a player from the opposing team logged over and berated us for not suiciding our ships and flying something worse: to me that is totally unreasonable. To people who queue in premades, not being able to queue with their friends is unreasonable
Trivers/Riste - Shadowlands
Riste/Carranog - Harbinger

RickDagles's Avatar


RickDagles
09.26.2015 , 12:53 PM | #116
I haven't read all of the walls of posts here because I'm not incredibly interested in game politics, but I just wanted to clear the air a bit. I watched the stream to coordinate queues because I wanted a good challenge. I gathered some players and made a premade because I wanted to play the game to the most of its ability. I am 100% not sorry for stacking teams because Drakolich can (and HAS) done so almost since the game launched. I personally would be flattered by the attempts if someone did this to me. I would relish the challenge, regroup, and come back even stronger (which he has done). It's about time Drak lost some games, and I'm glad to be part of a team that could accomplish it. These last few weeks have been some of the most fun games I've ever had, win or lose. I'm really glad that most of the good players have moved to Harbinger. And I think games like these are going to continue for months to come.

ShallowHal's Avatar


ShallowHal
09.26.2015 , 01:57 PM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by caederon View Post
There is only one real solution to this problem, and we cannot enact it directly.
Of course, and that solution is never coming.

Quote:
The Only Winning Move Is Not To Play!
Well, I think that a lot of people do come to that conclusion. I don't think anybody wants that though, not Drakolich and not me. The question is, how do you keep a new player wanting to keep playing when he's playing with two hands behind his back?

1. He doesn't really understand all the controls.
2. His ship is much easier to kill than the people he's facing.

I'm glad you participated in this thread. You group with everybody. You've grouped with me and you've grouped with many other people that could hardly be considered aces. I think your stance of "Let them cap a node, more comms for every one" is exactly the right stance. I'm disappointed, but not surprised to see that the people that are grouping with Drakolich's team aren't up for that, because I think that it's an important step for the new player to understand that he isn't dying because he is being griefed.

I think your approach to the game is spot on and I wish more people felt the way you do.

ShallowHal's Avatar


ShallowHal
09.26.2015 , 02:03 PM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by ghosterl View Post
*sniff*

I love tthe smell of hypocrisy in the morning.
So do I.

By the way, I was invited to an 8 man ops group last night comprised of some of the members of the ops group Drak was complaining about. We were hardly a powerhouse. In fact, I felt like I was letting them down in a lot of the matches. But they didn't raze me for it. I did what I could do, ended up not playing in ships where I was more problem than solution, and had a good time, even though we won some and lost some.

And you know what? When that group got into a match that was very one-sided and we were three capping the nodes, two of those people told the guy at the third node to leave it alone. He was rather resistant to the idea, but eventually went along.

Danylia's Avatar


Danylia
09.26.2015 , 02:25 PM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafkin View Post
Last nights group finder was a mess. The short version is that two of the people were really bad but the tank was pretty good. After we called it I asked the tank if he wanted to queue up with me. He said "I'm eleven and I have to go to bed".
The one guy who knew what he was doing was eleven years old.

ShallowHal's Avatar


ShallowHal
09.26.2015 , 02:40 PM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by Verain View Post
First, I don't care because he's in here complaining because he lost, and pretending like that's some *issue with the game*.
I lose all the time. I have no issue with losing. But thank you for guessing my intent.

Quote:
He couldn't get req on a specific character at a specific time because he lacks the skill necessary to do so
Oh please. Let us not continue with the absurd notion that it is 100% skill and 0% equipment that dictates the outcomes of these matches. I know some of you hold onto that myth very tightly, but as anybody who is leveling up a new ship says in chat all the time, it just ain't so.

Quote:
and instead of skilling up and/or teaming up
I'm better now that I was a month ago. I am nowhere near as good as Drakolich and have zero problem saying as much. On a fully upgraded ship, he'd still slaughter me. I have a long way to go in terms of learning how to deal with specific situations (in particular, how to counter skilled scouts coming at you while you are in a bomber or a gunship, not to mention becoming a competent scout pilot myself, which I am not remotely yet).

Quote:
Second, he's not talking about his "personal" experience. He says: " you are also part of that problem when you see that the matches are that skewed and keep the team together anyway". This implies that (1) there exists a problem and (2) that Drako is somehow a cause of this problem.
There is a problem and yes, I do think Drakolich and his group are part of that problem based on how I've observed how his team plays in a tilted match as opposed to how a team with Despon would play. I think the Despon way is the superior way to go and I feel that way especially when I'm on the team that is benefitting from the tilt. I feel better about the match knowing that we gave people a chance to work on basic skills like blowing up defense drones and capping satellites and getting medals for it. Better for them, better for us.

Quote:
I too disagree that Drako should have offered any apologies.
I disagree as well. What I posted is only my opinion and I wasn't looking for an apology from him. If he wants to play the way he wants to play, there's certainly nothing I can do about it. I am only endorsing the notion that the game benefits from groups being mixed - some very good pilots, some OK pilots, and even some very new pilots and that the game is hurt by tilted matches. And since there will not be a solution coming from EA, it falls on the players who play the game to come up with the best solution they can on their own.

Quote:
I'd interpret it as like many GSF players, he has opted to complain that he can't level up his alt rather than:
(a) log on to his main
(b) log on to a different alt
(c) accept that when playing against good players, you get less req per minute
(d) join a team
(e) get good enough
I don't have an Imp main that has a fully upgraded ship yet. For that matter, I don't have a Pub main that has a fully upgraded ship yet either, although I have a couple that have ships that can be competitive in matches like that. But I'm not a frontrunner.

I don't think 100% of those groups exist because Drakolich invited every one of them to play with him. I think they exist because once they know his group is on, they log onto their alts looking for easy req. I could do that too, but I'm not really interested in beating down overmatched teams.

Quote:
But importantly- it's great to squish players.
I know that a lot of you feel that way. I can tell by how you play, how you camp the spawn points against overmatched teams, and how some of you target the same player repeatedly.

Quote:
Interestingly, Drako told you how he swapped sides shortly after. Your response? You ignored it.
Well, since I know that he played more than the five games he talked about, I didn't particularly care to focus on that point. I know he played more than those five games and so does he.

Quote:
Drako has lost plenty to overwhelming premades. All of us have. It's frustrating to lose, but it's not a damned design problem. Also, the big difference is, Drako and Mika queueing is two players queuing into anything. Double premades queuing into Drakolich is top players trying to make a really compelling game (if Drako brings the crew) or annoy him into doing so by starting a friendly rivalry. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's a very different intention- one is queueing to get a specific match, the other is just queueing into randoms like you.
And like I said, I think it's a great thing that people are building teams to fight him.

Quote:
First, he clearly pointed out it was a 2 man. Second, I was on vacation part of this week and sick the rest, or I would absolutely have been there. After listening to you, I'm sad I wasn't around to railgun you some. The crushing isn't complete until someone is asking for a gunship nerf on top of banning top players from getting games or trying to make them feel bad for actually being good.
Look, it's already clear that you are one of the players that sees nothing wrong with beating new players into submission. We get that. I'll never convince you that my position is right and you'll never convince me your position is right. But since you like throwing around the straw men, I am not one of those people asking for a gunship nerf or banning people and I definitely don't think anybody should feel bad about being good.

Quote:
The game can be frustrating. What you should do is queue up with other good players, something you never even mentioned as a possibility. "Whoa, this team game, I can't win, because there's a team queued against me. Holy moly!"
I have. But honestly, sometimes players want to group with other good players when they see the tilt is going the other way. It's not their responsibility to babysit me. I solo queue a lot. If I get invited to group or I get a response from asking if there are any openings on the GSF channel, I appreciate them making space for me because I know they could find better players to play with.

Quote:
Anyway, I think it's ludicrous that you are attacking Drako, who helps the community and trains pilots.
I agree. He does help the community. I didn't know about the training pilots part, but that doesn't surprise me. Heck, I even watched one of his videos yesterday playing on a Rampart and compared it to how I play on a Rampart in a Domination match to see what things I should be doing differently.

And I don't view my original post as an attack. I was specifically referring to something I personally say while I was playing one night and how it dovetailed with this thread.