Exilove again, this time on the subject of whirlwind.. and exactly the reason why it should be instant.. or atleast for one of our specs.

So yeah, Assassins/shadows.. all the same. All melee.

Now because of the way we are designed being near targets is basically essential. However, due to our stealth abilities we come together in an excellent package to ninjacap, or otherwise defend a node.

But now we lost our only instant ranged cc ninjacapping against anyone that actually thinks about how to handle against an attack, ninjacapping has basically become imposseble.

Whirlwind will always be interrupted, cc'd on, or otherwise evaded because it has a cast time.

Getting this cast off is practically imposseble because it is the only cast we have that is worth interrupting to others. Hence it will be, every single time.

Whirlwind has because a useless ability for the assassin. It's too easy to interrupt.

And if it can't be interrupted, it will be line of sighted.

There is no way you can get off any whirlwinds anymore that are actually valueable for the team not to speak about the fact that any experienced player will not allow you to ninjacap anything with it anymore.

There is no thought to choice of action anymore by the defender other than to stay the hell away from the capture node to prevent being combat stealth-maze capped.

Give us the ability to talent whirlwind instant again, or else you might aswell completely redesign it as right now it's completely useless in PvP.

I loved the tactical aspect of instant whirlwind for anything but ninja capping. Ninja capping in this game is generously easy. For that reason, I could almost agree with the whirlwind nerf...

However, I don't. Instant Whirlwind was useful for so many more things, and Bioware said that because of the addition of Phase Walk, we had too many "escape abilities", that's why it had to be nerfed... I played a Balance Shadow passionately, and I'll take instant force lift over phase walk any day. It was a very important asset of our spec. Bioware seemed to recognize this themselves, when they wrote the blog as to why they wouldn't be buffing Infiltration/Deception ages ago (they claimed that Balance/Madness was a flexible spell with good control. Well, GG ruining that).

Now this isn't going to win me any popularity, but I applaud Bioware for adressing the concern of ninja capping. Ninja capping should either require two players, or an attacker actually defeating the defender. That is my opinion. As such, I'd encourage Bioware to nerf Mindmaze/Sleep Dart (aka sap) in pvp. Either make it unusable in PvP altogether or reduce it's duration by half (also cut down the resolve it generates, to compensate). This way we can still use sap to stall, and if used correctly it can change games. It just won't be as easy as before, with ninja capping.

Now this isn't going to win me any popularity, but I applaud Bioware for adressing the concern of ninja capping. Ninja capping should either require two players, or an attacker actually defeating the defender.

If you got ninjacapped, even when instant whirlwind was a thing, you were defeated.

There was absolutely no reason why any good player would allow him/herself to be ninjacapped at any point in time if there was a thought about what ability/asset to use when. It was perfectly posseble to avoid a ninjacap alltogether even with us having the possebility of ccing for 8 seconds 2 times in quick succession.

If you got ninjacapped, even when instant whirlwind was a thing, you were defeated.

 

There was absolutely no reason why any good player would allow him/herself to be ninjacapped at any point in time if there was a thought about what ability/asset to use when. It was perfectly posseble to avoid a ninjacap alltogether even with us having the possebility of ccing for 8 seconds 2 times in quick succession.

I agree with this, Ninjacapping is now alot harder. Mind Trap helps with it but is much less useful in utility than Whirlwind. though it is a bit longer of a CC. Though If you force cloak and Re CC them after they break CC they cant break CC. and you can ninja cap. though you would need a total of 80 force to work with in surplus.

I agree with this, Ninjacapping is now alot harder. Mind Trap helps with it but is much less useful in utility than Whirlwind. though it is a bit longer of a CC. Though If you force cloak and Re CC them after they break CC they cant break CC. and you can ninja cap. though you would need a total of 80 force to work with in surplus.

That's not even the problem, but there is absolutely no reason for the defender to get within melee range of the defending node. As an assassin you got more than enough tools to stay away and still deny a cap. Not to speak about the fact that you can just AoE taunt yourself in combat as soon as you see the enemy assassin use Force Cloak.

Aside from assassins, operatives and snipers especially are fine in this regard. The only classes that wouldn't be are Mara's and Juggs, who shouldn't be defending anyway.

If you got ninjacapped, even when instant whirlwind was a thing, you were defeated.

 

There was absolutely no reason why any good player would allow him/herself to be ninjacapped at any point in time if there was a thought about what ability/asset to use when. It was perfectly posseble to avoid a ninjacap alltogether even with us having the possebility of ccing for 8 seconds 2 times in quick succession.

The odds are still in our favour. I don't have any videos or diplomas to prove my credibility, so I'll toss a random example of how easily you can ninja cap--even against a player who is taking precautions.

In this scenario, there is a Juggernaut standing a good distance away from the turret, at one of the sides in Civil War. You could force speed, sap him and break LoS and start capping. This might force the Juggernaut to pop his CC-breaker, at which point you've already won the base. If he doesn't pop it, he is left at the mercy of latency. It all depends on where he stands, but in this scenario he is standing so that he can easily take a step to the side to interrupt. Still, taking that one step to the side takes time...

Anyways, a better way to ensure ninja cap would be to stand by the turret itself. Pop instant whirlwind first, not sap, and start capping. Do it simultaneously, and the Juggernaut will have to break out of the Whirlwind. If he uses saber throw and not force leap, you can break LoS and restart capping. Then he'll have to come within 10m to interrupt you, at which point you can vanish -> sap -> cap.

And just to prove my experience; best way to sap+cap is to sap -> taunt -> cap. There is no quicker way to exit stealth. For operatives, you use sap -> cover -> cap. It is arguably easier for operatives, since the animation timer for sleep dart is longer than mindmaze. There is also a brief flight time on sleep dart, which could net you ~0.5 grace time. Anyways, my point is that ninja capping in this game is heavily in favour of the capper, and not the defender. Which is why it is critical to have a stealther on defense for more serious games.

And I apologize if I come off as prude or condescending. It is not my intent, I'm just very frustrated as of late. Mainly because of the changes made to Balance/Madness for Shadows and Assassins. They not only made the spec a lot more boring, but they also ruined its viability for pvp. Right now it is a glorified AoE DoT spammer that might net some amazing numbers on the Scoreboard, but won't be worth a damn in serious pvp. Bioware once dubbed the spec as a "great well-rounded high utility role" and they reduced it to a "drain skirmisher" in 2.0.

I just want my well-rounded high utility role spec back. Instant Whirlwind is required.

[edit]

I forgot to mention;

If Bioware thought ninja capping was cause to nerf Instant Whirlwind, I personally would've rather seen them nerf Sap...

The ability was removed specifically because of phase walk + madness. With phase walk being added, the devs felt it was too many kiting tools to have phase walk AND instant whirlwind on a spec, when we already have overload force speed 2s root etc. It's on a dev post somewhere that I have long since forgotten the location of.

The only problem with that logic of course is that snipers exist.

/rant

The ability was removed specifically because of phase walk + madness. With phase walk being added, the devs felt it was too many kiting tools to have phase walk AND instant whirlwind on a spec, when we already have overload force speed 2s root etc. It's on a dev post somewhere that I have long since forgotten the location of.

 

The only problem with that logic of course is that snipers exist.

/rant

Well that just... is dumb. Phase Walk is a horrible ability to use as an escape mechanic. It has far more, and better practical uses than that.

Whirlwind too, by the way.. who the hell uses whirlwind to get away from someone? It has far better uses for the cooldown it has..

Exilove again, this time on the subject of whirlwind.. and exactly the reason why it should be instant.. or atleast for one of our specs.

 

So yeah, Assassins/shadows.. all the same. All melee.

Now because of the way we are designed being near targets is basically essential. However, due to our stealth abilities we come together in an excellent package to ninjacap, or otherwise defend a node.

 

But now we lost our only instant ranged cc ninjacapping against anyone that actually thinks about how to handle against an attack, ninjacapping has basically become imposseble.

Whirlwind will always be interrupted, cc'd on, or otherwise evaded because it has a cast time.

Getting this cast off is practically imposseble because it is the only cast we have that is worth interrupting to others. Hence it will be, every single time.

 

Whirlwind has because a useless ability for the assassin. It's too easy to interrupt.

And if it can't be interrupted, it will be line of sighted.

There is no way you can get off any whirlwinds anymore that are actually valueable for the team not to speak about the fact that any experienced player will not allow you to ninjacap anything with it anymore.

There is no thought to choice of action anymore by the defender other than to stay the hell away from the capture node to prevent being combat stealth-maze capped.

 

Give us the ability to talent whirlwind instant again, or else you might aswell completely redesign it as right now it's completely useless in PvP.

1.

CC> Start Capping > Enemy doesn't break CC and you cap successfully.

2.

CC> Start Capping > Enemy breaks CC to stop cap > Combat stealth > CC > Cap.

1.

CC> Start Capping > Enemy doesn't break CC and you cap successfully.

2.

CC> Start Capping > Enemy breaks CC to stop cap > Combat stealth > CC > Cap.

2. Stay away far enough from node not to get combat sapped > no cc.

2. AoE taunt combat Stealth > no cc.

This is Assassin training 101, padawan you are dismissed.

2. Stay away far enough from node not to get combat sapped > no cc.

2. AoE taunt combat Stealth > no cc.

 

This is Assassin training 101, padawan you are dismissed.

Read my post. I know it's long, but I think it's worthwhile.

As for AoE taunt... if the stealther hits vanish + sap simultaneously, you won't have time to react. No one can react that fast, even if they are prepared for it. Best scenario might be that they get their AoE taunt off, but due to latency they'll be sapped, still.

But I digress. Opinions vary about ninja capping. I want Instant Force Lift back, so... bump.

Read my post. I know it's long, but I think it's worthwhile.

 

As for AoE taunt... if the stealther hits vanish + sap simultaneously, you won't have time to react. No one can react that fast, even if they are prepared for it. Best scenario might be that they get their AoE taunt off, but due to latency they'll be sapped, still.

 

But I digress. Opinions vary about ninja capping. I want Instant Force Lift back, so... bump.

I beg to differ. Done it more than once. And I did read your entire post.

Aside from assassins, operatives and snipers especially are fine in this regard. The only classes that wouldn't be are Mara's and Juggs, who shouldn't be defending anyway.

Given the sheer importance of doing node defence well, I'd be very wary of giving instant whirlwind back at this juncture. My view is perhaps slightly tainted by playing a Juggernaut as main, but I cringe at the idea that one class should get a -trivial- ninjacap against a Jugg defender. As it stands, if you had instawhirlwind as a Sin facing a jugg defender in CW:

1. Approach in stealth, plant phasewalk on turret, opposite side from defender (I'm assuming defender is staying at the right distance, on one of the corners).

2. Sap -> portal -> cap. This forces the cc break; I've faced this situation and the time it takes to strafe into LoS>Saber Throw is longer than the time it takes the Sin to portal->initiate cap.

3. Having forced my cc break and Saber Throw, just cap again. I now have to Force Leap or get in 10m to Choke; whatever it is, just insta-ww and cap away.

Call me nuts but I don't think mezzes should last the same duration as the cap timer, let alone be longer than caps (like in Ancient Hypergates). I might be less averse to the notion if my class had a viable tool for interrupting at range, perhaps - even if it was high up in only one of my trees, I'd accept that. But until then, objective-focus wins games, and insta-whirlwind would completely bar two ACs from taking on one of the most important roles in a CW or AH.

Given the sheer importance of doing node defence well, I'd be very wary of giving instant whirlwind back at this juncture. My view is perhaps slightly tainted by playing a Juggernaut as main, but I cringe at the idea that one class should get a -trivial- ninjacap against a Jugg defender. As it stands, if you had instawhirlwind as a Sin facing a jugg defender in CW:

 

1. Approach in stealth, plant phasewalk on turret, opposite side from defender (I'm assuming defender is staying at the right distance, on one of the corners).

2. Sap -> portal -> cap. This forces the cc break; I've faced this situation and the time it takes to strafe into LoS>Saber Throw is longer than the time it takes the Sin to portal->initiate cap.

3. Having forced my cc break and Saber Throw, just cap again. I now have to Force Leap or get in 10m to Choke; whatever it is, just insta-ww and cap away.

 

Call me nuts but I don't think mezzes should last the same duration as the cap timer, let alone be longer than caps (like in Ancient Hypergates). I might be less averse to the notion if my class had a viable tool for interrupting at range, perhaps - even if it was high up in only one of my trees, I'd accept that. But until then, objective-focus wins games, and insta-whirlwind would completely bar two ACs from taking on one of the most important roles in a CW or AH.

The possebility of ninjacapping is neccesary for organized play. However, a jugg should NEVER be guarding anything.

Did think of using phase walk that way around though, thats good stuff.

The possebility of ninjacapping is neccesary for organized play. However, a jugg should NEVER be guarding anything.

 

Did think of using phase walk that way around though, thats good stuff.

For organized play you don't need to use an unnecessary amount of CC in order to ninja cap. The best way to ninja cap in organized play should be to simply 1v1 the defender and have your team at mid stall people from running to the defender's aid. It is not like the time to kill is high in this game and stealthers would still be the best defenders, due to the possibility of vanish-stalling.

As for unorganized play, i.e normal warzones... well. I can't honestly say that it is difficult to turn the game around as a stealther, due to the sheer amount of CC we have at our disposal. It is easy. Perhaps not as easy in rated warzones, but we still have a generous amount of tools for the job. Sap -> insta WW -> Sap. Of course, Operatives still have flashbang, which makes ninja caps an invalid argument for nerfing insta whirlwind. So, again, if that was the reason Bioware nerfed it, I would rather have seen them nerf sap across the board.

For organized play you don't need to use an unnecessary amount of CC in order to ninja cap. The best way to ninja cap in organized play should be to simply 1v1 the defender and have your team at mid stall people from running to the defender's aid. It is not like the time to kill is high in this game and stealthers would still be the best defenders, due to the possibility of vanish-stalling.

That is not posseble on all maps. There is absolutely no excuse for backup to arrive late in ancient hypergate for example. The run is simply too short.

Hell, an operative or sniper could roll there from the middle in 4 seconds.

That is not posseble on all maps. There is absolutely no excuse for backup to arrive late in ancient hypergate for example. The run is simply too short.

 

Hell, an operative or sniper could roll there from the middle in 4 seconds.

Well, Ancient Hypergate was supposed to be a "death match-y" warzone. As of right now, it is the most sensetive to ninja caps. Having a 2-second room for error makes it really easy to cap.

Bit off-topic, but personally I would've preferred if the Republic and Empire started with one Pylon each that could not be capped, and have the main focus on the Orbs and the deathmatch in the middle.

Definitely agree that AH is, contrary to devtalk about it being 'deathmatchy', the most ninja-sensitive WZ in Regs. Equally willing to believe, though, that an RWZ team makes it somewhat counterable with good communication and dedicated rapid-respondents. I still get the impression that portal allows for all kinds of neat tricks that make me horribly jealous.

Regarding Agents' Flashbang still being instant, the only difference with Sins that I can point to is that without a trick like Phasewalk*, the time it takes them to sap->run around turret in CW->cap is JUST long enough for me to wait out the sap, strafe and Saber Throw. If they recap, I can leap in, trinket the flashbang and proceed as normal on full resolve; if my team isn't swapping me out for someone with a fresh cc breaker by the time my resolve is back down, then my team screwed up. Phasewalk may be the single biggest culprit in all this: it gives the means of forcing out a cc break on the opener, which I don't think existed before. From there, it's game over for me if you have a second instant mez. Maybe that's the no-win situation Bioware wanted to remove from the game for JK/SW.

*I have yet to see a Scoundrel/Agent successfully sap->Exfiltrate+break LoS->cap in the requisite short time to make my eat mez->strafe->Saber Throw a losing strategy; I always have just enough margin to pull it off. I'm led to believe that the roll just isn't precise enough, or the right range, or fast enough to allow the class to force a cc break on the opener. That's not to say it's impossible, and I'm open to correction if some Scoundrels/Agents have been able to achieve this.

Regarding Agents...

The way I often do, in case of a careful defender, is to strafe past and hit sap as late as I can. There is a slight delay timer on agent's sap which makes it more effective than a Sith Assassin's (also, it seems to me that the further away you are, the more time you buy yourself due to the slight flight time of the sap projectile). If you're lucky you can sap the target when you are 12-13m away from it. Hug the turret, take cover and cap. Granted, haven't tried this in RWZs since I haven't played any with my Agent, but I've done this a lot in Normal WZs with successful results.

Going slightly off-topic;

Phase Walk was unnecessary. When I first heard of it I prayed that Bioware would change their minds and give us something else. Assassins are, undoubtedly, the most mobile class in the game. Yes, opreatives can now reach objectives faster than any other class, but they are very vulnerable to slows, not to mention they have to burn all their energy + adrenaline probe in order to reach an objective (if lolrolling wihtout pause). Assassins still have force speed which is much better than exfiltrate, in my opinion. Not to mention, they have the best cooldown in the entire game; Force Shroud. They did not need more mobility.

Assassins were arguably the best class for objective play before 2.0 as well. Phase walk is an incredibly powerful tool for objective play. I don't get why Bioware thought it a good idea to give it to assassins. They should have given us a melee version of Death from Above, instead of buffing Death Field for Madness (seeing as both Deception and Madness had rather lacklustre AoE in 1.7).

Perhaps this is overly simplified logic, but... Madness wasn't ever an overpowered tree. It was very potent in the right hands, but it still paled in comparison to the usefulness of Darkness Assassins. I think it is fair to say, Darkness was far superior to Madness in PvP. Phase Walk was given as a baseline ability to all specs and it cost Madness some of its unique utility, making the already "underperforming" spec worse, and the strong spec more powerful.

Honestly though, it feels like Phase Walk is just a gimmicky copy of similar abilities from other MMOs (Monk's Transendence in WoW, Thieves Infiltrator's Strike in GW2...) that they introduced to the game because of it's cool factor. I doubt they actually considered the repercussions, and as such, our Madness spec had to bite the dust. Which is largely why I don't play anymore.

2. Stay away far enough from node not to get combat sapped > no cc.

2. AoE taunt combat Stealth > no cc.

 

This is Assassin training 101, padawan you are dismissed.

That defense can still be beaten and against 2 players you are probably getting capped on

And to the guy who said something about trivial caps vs jugg defenders, jugg defenders are always trivial caps in any warzone including novarre coast regardless of whether we have instant whirlwind or not

jugg defenders are always trivial caps in any warzone including novarre coast regardless of whether we have instant whirlwind or not

Interesting. I've never had any issues defending a node in Novare given the cap mechanics make outright ninja'ing impossible. Curious to see how widespread the sentiment is, though, that juggs can't defend. The lack of ranged interruption is a hindrance, but never seems to come up as a cause for concern balance-wise. Makes me wonder if perhaps it should...

ninjacapping has basically become imposseble.

I stopped here and started to laugh very loudly

Instan whirlwind allowed my to ninja cap a node defended by 2 defenders. Why would you absolutly need it to ninja cap a node?

Please,dont bring the ''operatives have flash grenade so I have to have instan whirlwind''. We have a lot of tools they would trade their flash grenade for so please leave this advantage to the operative

I stopped here and started to laugh very loudly

 

Instan whirlwind allowed my to ninja cap a node defended by 2 defenders. Why would you absolutly need it to ninja cap a node?

 

Please,dont bring the ''operatives have flash grenade so I have to have instan whirlwind''. We have a lot of tools they would trade their flash grenade for so please leave this advantage to the operative

That must be some very terrible defenders.

That defense can still be beaten and against 2 players you are probably getting capped on

And to the guy who said something about trivial caps vs jugg defenders, jugg defenders are always trivial caps in any warzone including novarre coast regardless of whether we have instant whirlwind or not

Please, do explain.

And naturally you are going to get capped by 2 people that know what they do. It's your teams job to make sure the enemy team can't afford to lose that second person in the primary fight.

That must be some very terrible defenders.

 

 

 

Not that bad, simply bait their CC breaker or have a very good awareness and ninja the node when you know their CC breaker is on CD and GG your ninjaing a node defended by 2 players. Thx god it isnt possible anymore well technicaly it might be possible.

Mind trap guard no.1 for 8 sec than cast you specced Whirlwind on guard no.2 for 1.5 sec, you have 6.5 sec to cap.