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Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.13.2013 , 12:42 PM | #341
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
You are assuming, quite idealistically, that there is indeed honor among thieves. Criminals, the Exchange included, are not some honorable fraternity who will rally together to defend Nar Shaddaa. Quite the opposite, under the threat of a "second Taris", they will immediately look for some way to keep the Sith off their back. And if G0-T0 is the key to that, then he will be betrayed in a heartbeat by the same people who already are looking to depose him and take his job. It just gives them a convenient excuse.

The spectre of Taris will cast a very long shadow over Nar Shaddaa, and every single member of the Exchange will be thinking first and foremost about their survival. They're already ready to betray each other, this is just an extra incentive. Criminals aren't fans of the Sith, but the Sith have always tolerated the underworld and its slave and spice trades. Furthermore, the Exchange will be terrified of the Sith after Taris. They view the Sith as dangerous and insane, and will avoid conflict with them first and foremost.
If this were some backwater, you would be correct. But the is Nar Shaddaa. The center of business and profit for people such as these, and the seat of the most powerful Exchange boss. You see, this is where the credibility factor comes in. G0-T0 says "Fight back the Sith or you know they'll just blow you all up" and Traya says "We'll only blow you up if G0-T0 doesn't die."

...

Let me remind you that things are pretty good for smugglers and other underworld people at this point. There are no rules, no other governing powers. It's almost anarchy. Almost. One factor stands in their way to the ultimate free market: Traya and her rag-tag beat-up Sith goons. They are the only force left who can control them, and now they're already dictating the Exchange's internal affairs? So not only will fighting back Traya be profitable because working for G0-T0 tends to pay off, but in the long run the underworld will suddenly rule the galaxy.

And if what you say is true, there is no reason for them to betray G0-T0. They would want to avoid contact with the Sith altogether, and therefor not become their pawns. So why would they ally themselves with them? They wouldn't. If anything, they would fly off to a distant part of the galaxy to not get involved. If that happens, G0-T0 might lose part of his powerbase, but he won't be betrayed.



Also, you keep talking of betrayal. How exactly will these other Exchange members betray G0-T0?

EDIT: But we are trying to predict how people will react. Which doesn't make too much sense, seeing as we are not them and (hopefully) don't have the mindset of a criminal. Odds are there will be a split. Some stay loyal, some attempt to betray G0-T0, and some just leave. However, my money is on most remaining loyal.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.13.2013 , 01:02 PM | #342
[QUOTE=Warren-Stride;5991700]If this were some backwater, you would be correct. But the is Nar Shaddaa. The center of business and profit for people such as these, and the seat of the most powerful Exchange boss. You see, this is where the credibility factor comes in. G0-T0 says "Fight back the Sith or you know they'll just blow you all up" and Traya says "We'll only blow you up if G0-T0 doesn't die."

Traya would never say that explicitly, but the thought would obviously linger in the back of their minds. They'll know what happens when the Sith get impatient. And there will be no public declaration, Traya's assassins and agents will move in quietly and only approach those people who have a lot to gain if G0-T0 is destroyed, his immediate subordinates in the Exchange.

Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
And if what you say is true, there is no reason for them to betray G0-T0. They would want to avoid contact with the Sith altogether, and therefor not become their pawns. So why would they ally themselves with them? They wouldn't. If anything, they would fly off to a distant part of the galaxy to not get involved. If that happens, G0-T0 might lose part of his powerbase, but he won't be betrayed.

Also, you keep talking of betrayal. How exactly will these other Exchange members betray G0-T0?
They would betray him by revealing his plans and shipments to the Sith, who would interdict them and give the lion's share of the profits to those who provided the information. Instead of G0-T0 profiting from his smuggling, his rivals and subordinates would.

Eventually, his yacht will be compromised. His communications cannot remain secret forever, and the Sith can very easily "convince" experts like the Bith technician who discovered G0-T0's signal to help them triangulate the position of G0-T0's yacht.


Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
EDIT: But we are trying to predict how people will react. Which doesn't make too much sense, seeing as we are not them and (hopefully) don't have the mindset of a criminal. Odds are there will be a split. Some stay loyal, some attempt to betray G0-T0, and some just leave. However, my money is on most remaining loyal.
While this is true on a large scale, it's not the mass betrayal of his people that Traya is looking for, but rather the calculated betrayals of a few individuals in a position to harm G0-T0 and benefit from his demise. Rather than trying to divide the Exchange, Traya would simply look to facilitate a smooth transition of power to G0-T0's subordinates, or specifically the ones who figure out where he is and leak that info to the Sith.

This is the problem with a criminal organization, they're motivated first and foremost by profit, and the higher up the food chain they climb, the larger an appetite for wealth they'll acquire. They have everything to gain by betraying G0-T0, but the worst that could happen is that he finds out and kills them... which is what will definitely happen if they help him fight the Sith. It becomes a matter of taking a risky bet versus a suicidal bet.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.13.2013 , 01:36 PM | #343
OK, first of all, lets all just chill - I sense a flame war coming on and as much as I like debate boosters its probably not a good idea.

But anyway, time to give this debate some focus. To avoid as going round in circles and remaking points I'm going lay down some ground for this debate (this is not K-Canon, just an summary of events from my perspective)

In the opening stages of the Kaggath each combatant will be enacting their own preliminary schemes:

  • Traya will be scouting out Nar Shaddaa for Exchange bases and hideouts, then proceed to shadow strike them and sow fear throughout the Underworld.

  • G0-T0 will be outfitting his army for an invasion of Malachor i.e. equipping vessels with stealth tech, producing/shipping HK units, outfitting them with advanced weaponry, tracking down Bao-Dur and enlisting his support.

By the time G0-T0 is ready, Traya would likely have done some significant physical and psychological damage to his powerbase on the Smuggler's Moon, though nothing to hinder his impending invasion which will commence as scheduled. After bypassing the interdiction fleet G0-T0 will invade the planet in a two pronged assault and may or may not succeed in destroying the planet. Although really, success is more likely than failure.

However its also a high possibility that Traya would have fled the planet upon learning of the invasion, expecting a reactivation of a weapon that she has no means to prevent (she does not know where the weapon is, or how G0-T0 plans to reactivate it.) However losses will be minimal, and she'll likely capture some HK units for further study.

Traya will retreat to Korriban and G0-T0 may very well assume Traya is dead, however as Warren has proven, this will only provide Traya time to prepare and attack/regather her forces, rather than an opportunity to kill G0-T0. G0-T0 will sit idle, while Traya will learn the location of the HK factory and invade. Destroying this asset by revealing her survival to G0-T0.

G0-T0 will go back on the offensive, searching for Traya's new location and planning a means of attack, (and also attempting to counter Traya's shadow strikes on his powerbase) while Traya will re-bolster her assault on G0-T0's powerbase, sowing further fear and doubt in the Exchange and prompting his forces to desert him, and possibly impart information in exchange (pun not intended) for immunity from her assassins.

Where the battle would go from here, I am not sure. But at least we now have some foundations, feel free to dispute them if you which. But a few further points that need addressing:

  • The Exchange is not the mafia, betraying your superiors does not mean death. As others have pointed out betrayal in the Exchange was commonplace. Loppa Slusk was betrayed by Luxa and Davik Kang was betrayed by Canderous Ordo. And Visquis betrayed G0-T0. Lets remember that underling crime lords such as Visquis and Saquesh are by no means excluded from this Kaggath. But of course we have to consider how much damage these people can actually do.

  • The Exchange don't give a damn about each other, and I certainly not going to be angry at the Sith for destroying the Exchange presence on Taris. All these guys care about are credits, influence and their own skin. And if Traya forces them to join her on punishment of death for refusal, they might just accept.

  • Let me reitirate, G0-T0's yacht is locked down tight. He will be recieving no visitors, no one will be 'meeting' with him at all. However a holotrace device could be used, but that depends on G0-T0 staying put and how untraceable his transmissions would be, mind you Lux Bonteri used it against Dooku...

  • G0-T0 will never break, simply because it is his nature not too. He is an infrastructure planning droid designed specifically to handle the immense amount of data a droid would have to process when single-handedly governing an entire system. I think G0-T0 can manage a Kaggath.

  • Canino points out the problem of ammo, but this is not a problem. It would be if Traya were engaging in a full scale war but she is not, in fact the Sith Commandos will rarely be used at all, likely only in defense. Its the Sith and the assassins which will be carrying out all major operations.

  • However Traya cannot actually resupply her forces at all, Czerka previously supplied the Sith Empire with weapons etc. but broke off that deal after they lost the Jedi Civil War. Therefore Czerka are not apart of Traya's powerbase and not in the Kaggath, I doubt she had any suppliers during the Dark Wars either, so she can't make any deals etc. as these suppliers do not exist. The same applies to any companies G0-T0 is unaffiliated with, they do not exist.

  • G0-T0 needs a battleship to orbitally bombard Korriban, he does not have one and has no means of procuring one.

  • The 'Second Battle of Malachor V' is by no means an assured win for Traya, the last couple of pages have only proven that Traya would repel the Academy invasion, but seeing as this is a decoy for the reactivation of the MSG the this is largely irrelevant.

  • Its been confirmed that Traya has access to this weapon, as it is effectively a repeating blaster on a mount. And Traya possess many repeating blasters as well as basic military strategy. K-Canon.

  • G0-T0 has pretty extensive access to the Black Market, that's not to say he IS the Black Market. But he can pretty much by anything he wants from it, after all all its takes is credits and influence. It's not exactly exclusive.

  • The smugglers and the bounty hunters are not even third parties, they are fourth parties, the rules of the Kaggath and the Kaggath set up as a whole does not affect them. They are just smugglers and bounty hunters, same as they always are.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
03.13.2013 , 01:43 PM | #344
Also Beni help clear something up, G0-T0 has the entire Exchange or just his planetary area? I noted that was something was argued about, so just for clarification.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.13.2013 , 01:48 PM | #345
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Also Beni help clear something up, G0-T0 has the entire Exchange or just his planetary area? I noted that was something was argued about, so just for clarification.
G0-T0 controls a planetary cell, being Nar Shaddaa. He does not have access to the resource, influence etc. of other Exchange bosses of other planetary cells such as Davik Kang and Loppa Slusk. This is because G0-T0 is not the leader of the Exchange, but one of many subordinates.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.13.2013 , 01:57 PM | #346
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Traya will retreat to Korriban and G0-T0 may very well assume Traya is dead, however as Warren has proven, this will only provide Traya time to prepare and attack/regather her forces, rather than an opportunity to kill G0-T0. G0-T0 will sit idle, while Traya will learn the location of the HK factory and invade. Destroying this asset by revealing her survival to G0-T0.
So wait, the assult on the HK factory is a confirmed win for Traya?
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
03.13.2013 , 02:01 PM | #347
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
G0-T0 controls a planetary cell, being Nar Shaddaa. He does not have access to the resource, influence etc. of other Exchange bosses of other planetary cells such as Davik Kang and Loppa Slusk. This is because G0-T0 is not the leader of the Exchange, but one of many subordinates.
Alright then.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.13.2013 , 02:06 PM | #348
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
The Exchange is not the mafia, betraying your superiors does not mean death. As others have pointed out betrayal in the Exchange was commonplace. Loppa Slusk was betrayed by Luxa and Davik Kang was betrayed by Canderous Ordo. And Visquis betrayed G0-T0. Lets remember that underling crime lords such as Visquis and Saquesh are by no means excluded from this Kaggath. But of course we have to consider how much damage these people can actually do.
Visquis died.

If you betray G0-T0, you will get killed. Maybe not by other minor figures like yourself, but G0-T0 has an extensive reach. He basically out-hired Visquis to have his own bodyguards turn against him. I'm sure he does this for others as well. And let's not forget, G0-T0 has HK-50 droids he'll be using to a much larger extent. Traya has her Sith, G0-T0 has HKs. So either way, they'll get killed by some kind of assassin, be it droid that is infamous for killing people or by Sith assassins that are more of a myth. Not exactly a tough choice.

And all G0-T0 has to do is make an example (even if it's a flase one) out of a few of his underlings to keep the rest in line.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.13.2013 , 02:11 PM | #349
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
Where is the evidence that G0-T0 is independently wealthy? He is a rogue planning droid, it's not like he inherited an estate. His startup capital came from the smuggling ring he organized on Nar Shaddaa. Most of his smuggling income ends up getting spent rebuilding Republic worlds.
The bounty placed on live Jedi/Sith was enough to buy a planet, apparently (according to G0-T0's wookieepedia article). So yes, he is plenty rich and has tons of credits on-hand.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.13.2013 , 02:18 PM | #350
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Visquis died.

If you betray G0-T0, you will get killed. Maybe not by other minor figures like yourself, but G0-T0 has an extensive reach. He basically out-hired Visquis to have his own bodyguards turn against him. I'm sure he does this for others as well. And let's not forget, G0-T0 has HK-50 droids he'll be using to a much larger extent. Traya has her Sith, G0-T0 has HKs. So either way, they'll get killed by some kind of assassin, be it droid that is infamous for killing people or by Sith assassins that are more of a myth. Not exactly a tough choice.

And all G0-T0 has to do is make an example (even if it's a flase one) out of a few of his underlings to keep the rest in line.
1.Visquis and probably everybody else in the Exchange wouldn't know about it, which leads to 2. Betray G0-T0 and probably gain his powerbase or definitely be killed by the oncoming storm. 3.It only takes one screwing him over for the Sith to find out where he is. Which means 4.Your point that they'd be too scared after a certain boss is killed is moot and really, who'd you fear more, the Sith who are breathing down your neck or assassins you could be protected from by the Sith's own forces.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order