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Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament Finals - Traya vs G0-T0

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.06.2013 , 02:20 PM | #231
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
[*]She did not use the Exile to destroy the Force (clearly through the fact that the Force still exists) - this stuff about creating Force bonds across the galaxy? That is somewhat baseless and likely untrue. Also if this is the case, then why is Traya so satisfied when the Exile defeats her? And why does she say nothing of this grand plan? We only have the word of Atris, and even she speaks nothing of exploiting bonds.
If you actually believe that Traya's plan was simply a one way do or die ticket to achieving her goal: life without the force. Then you aren't doing her much justice. The Exile was one way of MANY ends to her means, that she would use to fulfil this.

Traya even says as much to the exile in the game, that unless you go to her, she will kill herself and by her death, your own 'and then the galaxy will begin to die.' When Traya had actually managed to train a student that was greater than every other she had trained beforehand, and not just that, but someone who had come from a life without the force, she was reconciled with herself and even, partially, the force itself(KotOR CG).

PS: Please refrain from such a derogatory way of arguing a point, you don't look more respectful or knowledgeable, you just lose said respect.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.06.2013 , 02:38 PM | #232
One point I'd like to make, turning down a job to invade Malachor V is not cowardly. Taking up the job is tantamount to suicide, I'm not saying that the underworld is cowardly, I'm saying they're not insane. Let's remember this is the planet that later becomes synonymous with hell. By accepting this job you are taking the risk of:

  • Experiencing a violent crash landing which you may or may not survive.
  • Being devoured by two meter tall storm beasts.
  • Dying a slow and painful death via noxious gases.
  • Falling into a bottomless pit.
  • Being fried by electricity or Sith Lightning.
  • Having dark energies drive you complete insane/turn you into a zombie.
  • Getting stabbed in the back by an invisible assassin.
  • Getting sliced up by a lightsaber.
  • Being abandoned on this hell hole.
  • Getting blow apart as the MSG rips the planet into scattered asteroids.
  • Having nightmares for the rest of your life.

That is if you even get to the planet before Traya has you assassinated for allying yourself with the Exchange, which I am sure she will attempt to do.

Like I said, you'd have to be insane to take this job, and no matter how many credits you offer few if any will take up the job. What's G0-T0's pitch going to be: you want 1 million credits? Well, all you have to do is go here, get here, and not get killed by these guys, these guys or these guys along the way. Oh and then you have to kill her. Easy job, easy money, no risk - so you in?

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.06.2013 , 02:45 PM | #233
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
If you actually believe that Traya's plan was simply a one way do or die ticket to achieving her goal: life without the force. Then you aren't doing her much justice. The Exile was one way of MANY ends to her means, that she would use to fulfil this.

Traya even says as much to the exile in the game, that unless you go to her, she will kill herself and by her death, your own 'and then the galaxy will begin to die.' When Traya had actually managed to train a student that was greater than every other she had trained beforehand, and not just that, but someone who had come from a life without the force, she was reconciled with herself and even, partially, the force itself(KotOR CG).

PS: Please refrain from such a derogatory way of arguing a point, you don't look more respectful or knowledgeable, you just lose said respect.
I completely agree with you, and I'm not disputing that at all. What I'm disputing is that somehow that by killing herself and/or the Exile would somehow kill the Force. It just makes no sense. And its Atris that says that, not Kreia. But anyway, this isn't the place for this debate.

P.S. I didn't realise I was been offensive, apologies if I was.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
03.06.2013 , 03:07 PM | #234
If I may, how do we know the Gand and Ubese are able to survive Malachor? Even powerful Jedi could barely withstand the Dark Side energies of that place, how are Gand and Ubese suppose to?

And even if they do, how do you suggest they make their way to Traya past everything Beni listed above?
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.06.2013 , 03:13 PM | #235
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I completely agree with you, and I'm not disputing that at all. What I'm disputing is that somehow that by killing herself and/or the Exile would somehow kill the Force. It just makes no sense. And its Atris that says that, not Kreia. But anyway, this isn't the place for this debate.

P.S. I didn't realise I was been offensive, apologies if I was.
I PM'd you about what I was posting. Also, no worries, but you came off very distastefully in an earlier post.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.06.2013 , 03:19 PM | #236
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
If I may, how do we know the Gand and Ubese are able to survive Malachor? Even powerful Jedi could barely withstand the Dark Side energies of that place, how are Gand and Ubese suppose to?

And even if they do, how do you suggest they make their way to Traya past everything Beni listed above?
That's really at the crux of Traya's most feasible plan to defeat G0-T0. She doesn't have to eliminate everyone in G0-T0's powerbase, just those that can invade Malachor, AKA the HK assassins. Then scare everyone else into not taking up the job. Expanding on terror tactics:

Terrorize Nar Shaddaa, granted G0-T0 has a big presence on the planet and eyes almost everywhere. But Sith assassins are masters of stealth and subterfuge and have stealth generators. So detecting and tracking them down and then killing them is no easy feat. Meanwhile the assassins can strike at Exchange bases, Jekk'jekk Tarr,
and anyone else who allies himself with G0-T0. Basically make it clear that the Exchange are enemies of the Sith, dissuading others from aiding them.

Something else I forgot to mention:

Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Which means that both situations would have to fall in Traya's favor for there to be any actual impact to this argument. And as we have debated, the likely hood of her winning one, most certainly both, is slim.
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
And we have established that with small ship, G0-T0 could easily land on Malachor.
Both of the above are highly debatable, so lets not just put them to one side just yet. Lets also remember that the Visionary isn't that big.

Random, unrelated question: Why is G0-T0's yacht called the Visionary?

P.S. Don't get worried if I seem to be debating all for one side, I'm probably going to hand the decision making over to someone else.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
03.06.2013 , 07:47 PM | #237
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
One point I'd like to make, turning down a job to invade Malachor V is not cowardly. Taking up the job is tantamount to suicide...

  • Experiencing a violent crash landing which you may or may not survive.
  • Being devoured by two meter tall storm beasts.
  • Dying a slow and painful death via noxious gases.
  • Falling into a bottomless pit.
  • Being fried by electricity or Sith Lightning.
  • Having dark energies drive you complete insane/turn you into a zombie.
  • Getting stabbed in the back by an invisible assassin.
  • Getting sliced up by a lightsaber.
  • Being abandoned on this hell hole.
  • Getting blow apart as the MSG rips the planet into scattered asteroids.
  • Having nightmares for the rest of your life.

That is if you even get to the planet before Traya has you assassinated for allying yourself with the Exchange, which I am sure she will attempt to do.
The answer seems painfully simple.

Mandalorians.

They're common on Nar Shaddaa during both the combatants time periods. They work as mercenaries and bounty hunters.

This is especially effective seeing as we can compare the Mandos to the assassins. While outnumbered and taken off guard, the Mandos were able to defeat a large amount of Traya's assassins. They also have stealth tech akin to the assassins, and beskar armor resistant to lightsabers, for sure the pikes most assassins use. They've already proven their worth in battle against Sith and the like as well.

So the motivation? Well, credits yeah. But these are Mandos. And not the noble Canderous kind. They despise Revan, and when G0-T0 tells them that Traya is his master, they'll be more than happy to seek revenge. Don't buy that? Malachor was th sight of the Mandalorian's greatest defeat. They'd probably want to wipe away that mark of failure.... Maybe by activating the MSG?

So lets see.
Can use basalisk droids to land
Have faced beasts more deadly than Storm beasts
Have masks
Won't fall into a pit
Won't be fried by Sith (Beskar)
Can't be stabbed in the back (Beskar)
Can't be sliced by lightsabers (Beskar)
Have reinforcements from their clans / their droid ships
Have honor, so if they think axtivatinv the MSG is honorable, they'll do it, even if they die
Mandos don't have nightmares. Their enemies do.


Mandos are a prominate underworld group that G0-T0 could easily hire to take on Malachor, seeing as they have the tech, the armor, the skills, the motivation, and the courage to do it.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
03.06.2013 , 08:11 PM | #238
Should note, not all Mandos wear Beskar armor due to the fact its rare most just stuck with duraplast and durasteel. In the end though, while lightsabers won't work as effectively(they will still work it'll just take more effort) the Sith still have The Force which

The Force > Armor.

As for the gas, they aren't gonna be able to breath forever with their helmets. Their reserve air tanks only supply enough for 2 hours, though if they can keep away from the gas they'll be fine, they just can't have any prolonged exposure. Though question...what beasts have Mandos taken on, that come close to a Storm Beast that has been twisted and powered by the Darkside, with which they can send out deadly/destructive sonic waves and have enhanced strength.

There is also a chance, the Mandos can go insane.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
03.06.2013 , 09:28 PM | #239
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
The answer seems painfully simple.

Mandalorians.

They're common on Nar Shaddaa during both the combatants time periods. They work as mercenaries and bounty hunters.

This is especially effective seeing as we can compare the Mandos to the assassins. While outnumbered and taken off guard, the Mandos were able to defeat a large amount of Traya's assassins. They also have stealth tech akin to the assassins, and beskar armor resistant to lightsabers, for sure the pikes most assassins use. They've already proven their worth in battle against Sith and the like as well.

So the motivation? Well, credits yeah. But these are Mandos. And not the noble Canderous kind. They despise Revan, and when G0-T0 tells them that Traya is his master, they'll be more than happy to seek revenge. Don't buy that? Malachor was th sight of the Mandalorian's greatest defeat. They'd probably want to wipe away that mark of failure.... Maybe by activating the MSG?

So lets see.
Can use basalisk droids to land
Have faced beasts more deadly than Storm beasts
Have masks
Won't fall into a pit
Won't be fried by Sith (Beskar)
Can't be stabbed in the back (Beskar)
Can't be sliced by lightsabers (Beskar)
Have reinforcements from their clans / their droid ships
Have honor, so if they think axtivatinv the MSG is honorable, they'll do it, even if they die
Mandos don't have nightmares. Their enemies do.


Mandos are a prominate underworld group that G0-T0 could easily hire to take on Malachor, seeing as they have the tech, the armor, the skills, the motivation, and the courage to do it.
Except that Malachor V is culturally taboo to Mandalorians, so few of them would be willing to go there for any amount of credits, especially after what happened at the end of the war.

Also, few of them have beskar armor. Most Mandalorians get carved up fairly easily by the Exile, etc. because they're just wearing normal armor.

And Mandalorians aren't that prominent anymore, their numbers are continually diminishing after the Jedi Civil War. Canderous was in charge of one of the largest gatherings of Mandalorians anywhere, since he was trying to gather the clans. Otherwise, you saw them in groups of two or three, scattered and disparate.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.07.2013 , 10:47 AM | #240
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Mandos are a prominent underworld group that G0-T0 could easily hire to take on Malachor, seeing as they have the tech, the armor, the skills, the motivation, and the courage to do it.
This is just it I'm afraid: No outside help of any kind, the combatants cannot call upon assets outside their power base, or other prominent powers.

The Mandalorian clans are unfortunately, a 'prominent power', yes they were scattered and broken but they still operated in groups (clans) with their own resources, supplies etc. 'Exchange mercenaries' I will allow but per Kaggath rules G0-T0 can't simply enlist the help of anyone he chooses as this is a violation of conduct.

The problem with underworld characters is that they can buy whatever and whomever they want, which leads to people bringing up various groups, organisations and individuals who despite having no affiliation with said characters powerbase, can be bought and feasibly incorporated. In any other format with would be acceptable, but in the Kaggath format combatants are only able to use that which is apart of their powerbase, with unaffiliated vendors being allowed as compromise. Some sort of cap has to be placed on these sort of combatants.

For that reason G0-T0 is only allowed the Gand nest t, the Ubese assassins , the Red Eclipse, the Zhug brothers and miscellaneous exchange mercenaries. I hope you understand my reasoning behind this.