[...]

 

But see, this right here? This would have been an actual way to make "choices matter". Build up a powerful and extensive Alliance, and show forgiveness to your allies, and you'd have the resources you need to save them both. Be merciless and isolate yourself, and you're forced to save only one...or, heck, maybe even lose out on both in certain conditions.

 

Instead, no matter what you do in Chapter VIII, and no matter what you did in the previous chapter, the context is always the exact same. Save Vette and Torian dies, or save Torian and Vette dies. That is why the choice is stupid.

 

You already get something extra if you decide to ally with Arcann in the final chapter. But I am personally glad this consequence isn't in the game. You can build a very strong Alliance with a lot of good people without bringing in Arcann. It isn't being "merciless" and "isolating" yourself to bring a cruel genocidal despot to justice by taking him out (and he slaughters a bunch more people before you do). I think it's totally unfair to all the people Arcann has harmed to just placidly forgive him and not let him face any consequences for his actions.

 

And as for Senya, *she* attacks *you* and says straight out she's trying to kill you, so you have a right to defend yourself.

Edited August 1, 2017 by IoNonSoEVero

Or, you know, Arcann and Senya both go save one while you go save the other. The Outlander is one of the best fighters in the galaxy. If they can't handle a few Skytroopers or Knights by themselves at this point...

 

Plus (depending on who you've recruited in Alliance Alert missions), you've already run across at least Yuun, Pierce/a generic Alliance trooper (still don't know why this isn't M1-4X, BTW), and Nico Okarr. Any of those guys could've come along with the Outlander if (s)he really needed backup.

 

I was surprised more mando's were not on odessen. I have Mandalore as part of my alliance as well she should have been there with a bunch of the clans, as blood thirsty as they were on darvanis.

You already get something extra if you decide to ally with Arcann in the final chapter. But I am personally glad this consequence isn't in the game. You can build a very strong Alliance with a lot of good people without bringing in Arcann. It isn't being "merciless" and "isolating" yourself to bring a cruel genocidal despot to justice by taking him out (and he slaughters a bunch more people before you do). I think it's totally unfair to all the people Arcann has harmed to just placidly forgive him and not let him face any consequences for his actions.

 

And as for Senya, *she* attacks *you* and says straight out she's trying to kill you, so you have a right to defend yourself.

Myrmicus, though, wasn't just talking about Arcann.

Either way, all this is to say that having "on man armies backup that makes this choice stupid" not a certeinty. I had no backup for this situation...

I agree that just flagging it specifically to having Arcann or not probably wouldn't have been the perfect way to handle it, either. But there should've been a variety of flags that determined the outcome of the battle, rather than just "one gets saved singlehandedly and the other gets kidnapped and dies".

Myrmicus, though, wasn't just talking about Arcann.

 

I agree that just flagging it specifically to having Arcann or not probably wouldn't have been the perfect way to handle it, either. But there should've been a variety of flags that determined the outcome of the battle, rather than just "one gets saved singlehandedly and the other gets kidnapped and dies".

 

I think there should have been a lot of things in the game with more nuance, yes - I think the only one that was handled ideally there was actually Koth, because your actions actually do dictate what he chooses to do later on and even whether he chooses to remain in a relationship with your character.

 

Perhaps one of the deciding factors could have been the influence levels of your specialists, and how many of the Alliance Alerts you did - that would directly influence how many supplies were on hand and how many people you had to defend the base and train the troops. Like if you hadn't bothered recruiting any of the Force users, or killed them all, well, Sana-Rae was going to have some major trouble and maybe wouldn't make it. If you'd done most or all of the Alliance Alerts and had your specialists at 15 or 20, they could go after that second companion and save them.

 

I think the other issue is that with a few of the other companions that can be killed in the game, there are legit reasons that the player would be able to argue about killing them, that shouldn't result in punishment of losing more companions. For instance I don't think anyone could argue very much against killing Skadge. Even with Kaliyo - my SW chose to kill her because a) she would not listen, which made her a danger on the base; and b) she was a sociopath who now had a lot of information about my base, who likely would have sold me out immediately if she'd been exiled. Killing her seemed to be the way to protect the most people.

Let's not forget who actually told Vaylin, one of the most powerful force users and totally crazy person, to come down to the surface without consulting with any of their team aside from the two next to you.

Let's not forget who actually told Vaylin, one of the most powerful force users and totally crazy person, to come down to the surface without consulting with any of their team aside from the two next to you.

 

Yeah, but if she were on the surface it meant the Eternal Fleet couldn't bomb everyone into oblivion...

Yeah, but if she were on the surface it meant the Eternal Fleet couldn't bomb everyone into oblivion...

 

Which is another thing in itself ... Vaylin claims at the start she wanted a quick victory ... just bomb the planet, there was no need for a ground invasion, the planet had no defences, or rather certainly not enough to repel that many ships!

I found it somewhat uncomfortable, but also cathartic to have to make those "hard" calls. It makes the gaming world a little more like real life. It's a really neat, immersive world that the BW team has created. I mean think of it: you're the leader. It's war. Leaders have to make hard calls that even they just can't live with. Personally, I think they should leave some of them gone--not because they're unworthy of life, but because eventually people die. I don't know...maybe they could also make some Force ghosts and memorial spots or something.

 

The point is, I uncomfortably like what they did in forcing us to have to make a hard call. And when you're immersed in the game, you do feel like these folks have become virtual companions. Choosing between Vette and Torian isn't a choice we're supposed to have to make. The Force is supposed to decide so that that's not on us. But BW did us a tough favor.

 

Maybe we're kind of finding out the natural consequences (I don't mean that as a criticism) of making games that are so close to reality in that we have to learn to take the bad with the good. We start to feel a fuller range of complex emotions and decisions we don't want to make.

Which is another thing in itself ... Vaylin claims at the start she wanted a quick victory ... just bomb the planet, there was no need for a ground invasion, the planet had no defences, or rather certainly not enough to repel that many ships!

 

Not any really that one can see but in a message from Doc O. after Iokath there were many upgrades to planetary defenses so that if the eternal empire would invade we would be ready. Which is funny because you do not see any changes. I knew given her unstable personality (and being manipulated by valkorion) that someone would die. But because Valk needed Vaylin so he drove her over the edge to force the conclusion he wished.

This decision really bothered me on a number of levels and has far too many similarities with the All or Nothing decision that Bioware forced on us DA:I for the Mages and Templars. It's an emotional choice vs a logical one. Vette is the more likable character with big sad eyes that the game just spent 2 missions trying desperately to get us attached to; while Torian is the more dry personality, but functionally is worth far more to the Alliance than Vette is due to his inroads with the Mando's.

 

So right away the decision is massively manipulative as it does desperately want the player to side with Vette (who not 3 dialogues earlier promised that if she went through with blowing up those guns she could get out of that situation) and pulls on the heartstrings further in her direction. Beyond that, as many have said, its just really stupid when you think about it. Why can I as the Alliance Commander not direct some reserve forces to extract Torian while I go and rescue Vette? Seriously Bioware, stop making protagonists organization leaders if you don't want to let them act like one.

 

I mean ****, since I sent Kaliyo on the failed mission with Jorgan as support, I had no reason to exile or kill her as she did nothing wrong and as a result she was literally standing with a squad of commandos not doing ANYTHING not 40 yards away from where you have to make that decision. She would have been PERFECT to get Torian out of the position he was in and I could have done the dirty work to rescue Vette myself, but NOPE ... she gets to sit on her *** and I get to "abandon" Vette because Torian is simply the more logical choice to make.

Edited August 14, 2017 by CplCardButton

HA o it's so funny you all think this is even a choice. Torian fate was sealed the moment one of the writers thought in there head hey lets let the player choose between Vette orBOOM does not matter who the other person is gone out the window see ya never. I don't know what writer Torian pissed off but they sure did come up with one heck of a torture for the guy lets not only have your fate sealed but let the players seal it for us by showing you just where you stand on the pecking order, poor guy never stood a change.

I went with Torian, expecting Vette to make it out fine. When she didn't, I was stunned. Luckily I'm rerolling my smuggler bc of a certain choice post-KotET

so I'll be choosing Vette this time around - and so will both my other smuggler and SW.

 

My BH, on the other hand... well, I'm planning to romance Torian! (What can I say? KotFE and KotET made him grow on me!)

 

My other characters? Who knows. Mandos make good allies, after all. But Vette is awfully endearing!!

This choice was a very bad decision, it only created an open conflict between SW and BH. I agree, Vette is nice and cute, but my SW ( LS female) will still save Torian, because she has a war to win, not a cuteness contest. Agreed again, Vette is brave and fearless to some point, but she is not a soldier. Will my SW feel bad about letting her die? You bet she will, but this is war.

I hated this one both were good but had more influence with Vette.

Well, looks like I won't be seeing this scene ever outside of youtube. So I'll never know what I'll choose.

 

I'm just going to skip all the way to Iokath.

This is just bad form a technical stand point as no matter who we choose we loose both because there is no way either one that lives can be used in a major way for future story's as either once can be dead so we relay lose both of them in that will never see the one that lives ever again accept in game-play with random side missions were they say nothing.

I chose to save Torian without hesitation mostly because he is a Mandalorian and a good warrior while Vette is just a tomb looter Twilek. I also have problems with Vette mostly because she is a Twilek an overpopulated race in the galaxy who are literally everywhere and she is infiltrating the holy planet of the Sith. Same thing with the Twileks in Kalikori village on Tython. What are they doing on Tython, in a legends book the planet would become unstable by the presence of non-force users.

Same thing with the Twileks in Kalikori village on Tython. What are they doing on Tython, in a legends book the planet would become unstable by the presence of non-force users.

 

Play the Agent story, it explains the (real) reason they are there.

 

 

 

 

As for Tython becoming unstable, this is the first I've heard of that, and it doesn't make any sense in the slightest. There have been non-Force Users on Tython for as long as it's been populated.

I didn't looked up either, but i played enough games to know what's about to happen. It was so damn obvious the moment you had to chose who to save. To me there was not surprise at all.

 

Btw. If i were made the game, then you would have faced so much more choices like this. I would have killed half of your companions. I really hope, that at some point we can get rid of at least part of them, because there are way too many of them.

 

The reason i saved Vette was quite simple. We got tons of soldiers around, but master thieves with her skills are rare.

Edited February 1, 2019 by irrevelant

The other companion thing has been addressed so many times now. They ARE bringing them back it's just player feedback demanded a tighter story in kotet and unfortunately this meant no returning companions. Yep people complained. BW listened. Charles says he very much wants to bring them back ASAP. my guess is either between next xpac or in the next one. Don't lose hope on that.

^

This, I think what our fellow friend said is what happen. I have felt the same way... I play as a Darth Imperious, however Im sure by this time Darth Nox players has enough power and mastery over the force to stop Vaylin from killing her or reviving her in front of Vaylin eyes to shut her up, so I can agree with a lot of players being extremely upset to not being able to display or show off their leech and accumulated power with saying something cheesy as: "I can't save my own subjects huh? (revive companion in scene) You have underestimate me and my power for the last time!".

 

 

 

So don't lose hope, I'm kinda exited to see where the SWTOR team takes us in the story with this new IMPS vs PUPS conflict content.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Zehal

Nice to see this thread again. After gritting teeth and playing a few characters through these chapters, my split is pretty even on who to choose. The way I look at it now is that it doesn't matter who we save anymore because anyone with a kill option is basically dead in this game. So I just roll the dice and pick one then retrieve the other from the companion terminal. It saddens me that they even had these choices to begin and I get why. It created drama and dynamics to the story especially when it concerns a love interest's life on the line. I have had to just learn to deal with it and hope the survivors are still going to be included in future stories.

I may be one of the few Warriors who chose to sacrifice Vette. I didn't need to read gen chat or watch YT videos to know that I was choosing which character would die. I played Mass Effect I. This was Virmire all over again.

 

Wasn't an easy decision, but I still believe saving Torian was the right choice. While I do like Vette more as a character, and while my Warrior may have been closer to her, a leader has to maintain objectivity. There is little room for sentiment in war. At the end of the day, Vette's individual expertise and charm is simply outweighed by the need for influential loyalists in the Mandalorians who are ready to die for your cause. Vette is easily replaced, and that's just the cruel reality. On some level, it's precisely because I knew that she would not take her death with dignity that I chose to sacrifice her. She's simply not the type of person (my) Alliance needs.

 

This is exactly why my BH chose Torian over Vette. She's adorable. I love her personality, but Torian is a Mandalorian and my BH is as well, not by birth, but by winning The Great Hunt. Torian has fought by his side through so many battles during the story, that it makes sense that my BH is going to save his 'brother'. I didn't like to see Vette die, but it didn't make sense to sacrifice Torian for a cute, sassy talking Twilek.

My warrior never let Vette out of the collar and shocked her every time she opened her mouth. When the time came he saved Torian even though he barely knew him. Then he stood over Vette's corpse and laughed at Vaylin for thinking he would care that she died.

 

F**k Vette, they try way too hard to make you like her.

 

LOL! NICE. I wish I could let more of my inner bad guy out. My BH made more than a few darkside choices, but only those that went along with his philosophy of being a bounty hunter and not a hired killer (he choose to make a distinction). I feel I should make a darkside character but don't know if I can stomach all the dark side choices. I saved Torian too, since it just makes more sense for my BH to help his Mandalorian brother... plus Vette was only at maybe level 5 influence while Torian is 30. No way am I throwing away a high influence character.

I’m big on backstory for my characters, so I have my JK and BH as adopted sisters, and JK is not going to let her sister’s husband die. BH obviously saves Torian also because she’s married to him, but the rest of my toons have no attachment to either one (I haven’t played SW yet), so they’re free to look at it from a logical standpoint.

 

The way I see it, my extremely-light-sided JC almost has to save Vette, since she’s a civilian, and she would assume that Torian could take care of himself. The same goes for the Trooper and Agent— civilians have to be the priority.

 

My Smuggler and Inquisitor, though, they’re more tactic-minded, and it makes the most strategic sense to save the valuable ambassador/warrior over the easily replaceable tech.

 

All that being said, I’m still mad at BioWare for making us kill off some of the best companions in the game. Let’s get rid of Doc and Skadge instead.

First couple times i went through KOTET were with characters who had no particular bond with any of them : IA, JK and Trooper, so i had to go for the more pragmatic choice.

 

- Torian is a fighter, a clan leader who is respected by Mandalore, your link with an army of Mandalorians and is willing to help them change their ways to become better allies to the Alliance, which makes him pretty valuable.

- Vette is 1 person with some skills that other people in the Alliance also have such as T7, Theron or even Kaliyo or Talos and they potentially can do things better than her, and she has no particluar influence that'd be really usefull to the Alliance.

 

Which is why i chose to save Torian on these characters.

 

Add to that that he usually has a higher influence than her on pretty much all my toons, that he's my main BH's husband while she's not any of my toon's LI because my main SW is female and my male SW has the hots for Quinn, that she practically begs you to sacrifice Torian to save her (i think she litterally does that on SWs), which really rubs me the wrong way and that Torian is the youngest companion.

All of this is why i ended up saving Torian on pretty much all my toons afterwards, even though i don't dislike Vette, i only saved her once to see how it went and have since deleted the character.

I'd save them both if it was possible, i'd gladly save Vette over Ashara or Kaliyo, but i just happen to like Torian more than her, so i'd rather loose her than him.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Goreshaga