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How to make Jugg DPS viable in PVP ?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
How to make Jugg DPS viable in PVP ?
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krosswong's Avatar


krosswong
01.29.2018 , 03:22 PM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by Kirpputori View Post
are you really saying people shouldn't die in pvp? hihi
What i'm saying is, anyone who dies 15+ times in a warzone and either a) chalks it up to "a normal part of any PvP experience" or b) comes to the forums simply to complain about it (and unsurprisingly, he does both) has bigger problems than class survivability issues.
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Schoock's Avatar


Schoock
01.29.2018 , 04:15 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
I believe he's saying there is a reasonable amount of times to die in a match but 10+ in multiple is excessive.
Well there's something we agree in: it is excessive.

Luckily there's no class, not even AP, that suffers from that, unless the match is insanely bad and you get farmed on any class anyway.
Faction imbalance is the scientific term for saying player skills mature at a later age than that of the intended audience of a certain faction.

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supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
01.29.2018 , 04:34 PM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by Schoock View Post
Well there's something we agree in: it is excessive.
Well, that's the issue. It will be sometimes really excessive on one class (10+ deaths) while others will just die one or two times in this match, even if the team gets farmed. I did pvp against a sniper and a jugg earlier. The jugg, even if he was way better than the sniper, died very quickly, and ended up at a 14 death at the end of the match. The sniper on the other hand, was just plain bad. But we had a much harder time killing him, resulting in only five death on the total match.

While the match was clearly dominated by our team, resulting in some excessive deaths, the different result you obtain in the final scoreboard clearly show that something is still off when it comes to balancing TTK.
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TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
01.30.2018 , 12:02 AM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
That particular nightmare was just one match sure but I also wouldn't play without at least my healer buddy, and it came after a pattern of multiple such ~10 deaths a match matches. I couldn't handle it any more and went back to what I was good at - tanking.
Some times in regs it comes down to how you approach the fight.

If you are use to just leaping into the fray and hoping for the best, then yes, you will definitely die (I see people who are use to playing tanks try this approach on a dps and wonder why they die so much)
If you charge a defended node by yourself, over and over, you will die.
If you are out numbered because your team around you is constantly dead, you will die.
If the enemy team sees you as a massive threat, they will focus and you will die.
If you are defending a node and the enemy keeps pounding it and backup doesnít arrive fast enough, you will die.
If you put guard on some pug person, you will die, (IMO, dps should never throw a guard on any random, they will get you killed),
If you are defending Void Star doors from spam cappers that have Sorc and Snipers and Mercs on their team, you will die heaps.

These are just a few scenarios that can cause you to die heaps on a Jugg dps. Not all of them are the players fault. Often itís the team around you as well. But yes, you will last a bit longer as a tank and so you should. I can die 10 times in a match, but still do my job and help the team. Sometimes Iíll even top both dps and medals and most of those deaths are often suicide runs to stop a last minute cap till my team respawned. As long as you win and perform well, then it doesnít matter if you die 10 times.
But all of those things can happen to other classes too. Even Maraís for instance, which have no self heal will be just as vulnerable. If you find yourself in any of those above situations, you can easily die 10 times or more.
Something people forget and sometimes donít even realise is you can use LoS effectively on melee as well as ranged. Especially in close quarter combat areas like Yavins mid node.

I always approach each match and encounter differently. No two are the same (usually), evaluating wether you have a healer, how strong their team is vs yours, what their team composition is compared to yours, will you need to do multiple suicide runs to prevent caps. All of those things can change how you personally play the match.
Sometimes if I know my team is having trouble holding a node and only keep respawning just in time, I will disengage before the last 2 die and hide with in striking distance. Then when they are about to finish a cap, I will jump in to delay a bit longer. Sure I might die before I can get enough back up to heal or get healed, but just delaying that little bit more can make or brake a close match like that.
Another tactic I use to great effect, but can cause me to die a lot, is to help take the pressure off my team by pulling as many enemy away from the fray at the node. If I know the enemy team has non stealth guarding, there is a good chance I can put enough pressure on them to make them panic and draw multiple enemy to that node, which takes pressure off my guys. This tactic is much easier now because people over rotate and also donít call numbers. So itís likely 3-4 enemies will come running to back up them up. When that happens, Iím going to die, but it also helps give my team a breather and allows more of my guys to be respawned when the enemy gets back to them.

With dps Juggs, you take the good with the bad. They produce awesome dps burst or great dot damage. But they trade off some survival to do so. People are saying that Maraís are OP because their survivability is too much (not going to open that can again, so Iíll keave it there), so buffing Juggs in the wrong way would put them in the OP crosshairs too. What ever Bioware were to do, it would need to be extremely subtle and we know Bioware dont do subtle. My concern with asking for a buff is they will over do it. I already feel the defences are strong, so nothing needs buffing there. They could add some mobility or resistance to stuns/mez/roots or an extra escape. But adding anything to damage reduction or self heal would be a massive mistake IMO.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
01.30.2018 , 12:38 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
Some times in regs it comes down to how you approach the fight.
And how good the other team is at focusing. Sure I can slaughter suckers all day. That's not the comparison I'm trying to make, however.
Quote:
If you are use to just leaping into the fray and hoping for the best, then yes, you will definitely die (I see people who are use to playing tanks try this approach on a dps and wonder why they die so much)
While I admit I have a certain degree of an in your face playstyle (I main tanks after all), I quickly learned this would not work. I mained vigi for 8 months and often topped damage boards doing it. I'm hardly incompetent.
Quote:
If you charge a defended node by yourself, over and over, you will die.
If you are out numbered because your team around you is constantly dead, you will die.
As I said earlier I spent 8 months maining vigi and have been playing PvP for more than 3years. I don't go off soloing nodes and if I'm hanging around a node where my team died it's because they have said the distraction is working. This is also much more effective on my tank, which has some semblance of ability to eat focus. Again, I'm not incompetent.
Quote:
If the enemy team sees you as a massive threat, they will focus and you will die.
Compared to the 2 sentinels and stealth capper thst all pull more damage than me? Ok sure, the tank main guardian that does reasonable if unimpressive damage is the threat. Hint: sarcasm.
Quote:
If you are defending a node and the enemy keeps pounding it and backup doesnít arrive fast enough, you will die.
Um, duh. I always call and since I generally have at least one friend help is guaranteed.
Quote:
If you put guard on some pug person, you will die, (IMO, dps should never throw a guard on any random, they will get you killed),
Um, I've said this myself literally everywhere on this forum. As a tank my primary reason for wanting guard gone from dps is because they're too squishy to do it and I'm constantly yelling at someone to remove it so I can guard. Anyone that thinks otherwise is an idiot.
Quote:
If you are defending Void Star doors from spam cappers that have Sorc and Snipers and Mercs on their team, you will die heaps.
Since I'm generally running a premade I can normally LOS around the columns until a friend arrives. Unless of course there's a stealther spam capping the door.

Quote:
These are just a few scenarios that can cause you to die heaps on a Jugg dps. Not all of them are the players fault. Often itís the team around you as well. But yes, you will last a bit longer as a tank and so you should. I can die 10 times in a match, but still do my job and help the team. Sometimes Iíll even top both dps and medals and most of those deaths are often suicide runs to stop a last minute cap till my team respawned. As long as you win and perform well, then it doesnít matter if you die 10 times.
The survivability comparison between tank and dps is almost hilarious. Focused defense actually is a heal to full. I can use enure and expect to live with a healer around. And I have an extra DCD to boot. I do not want dps to have the survivability of a tank obviously not do I feel that's a fair comparison to make. A fairer comparison is to our cousin the sents. Who have no self heals but actual DCDs and an actual avoidance measure. I'd swap focused defense for a sents toolkit on my dps any day.

Also, tank dps comparisons are fundamentally unfair because the role is entirely different. I don't give one crap how much damage I do on a tank. I do care how much I prevent my team members from dying.

Quote:
But all of those things can happen to other classes too. Even Maraís for instance, which have no self heal will be just as vulnerable. If you find yourself in any of those above situations, you can easily die 10 times or more.
Something people forget and sometimes donít even realise is you can use LoS effectively on melee as well as ranged.
You're cute if you think focused defense makes guardians as good as sents. With any sort of focus, no guardian dps is going to get it off more than once. I outlined my response to each scenario above, and repeat I'm not incompetent. In fact I'm one of the harder dps guardians to kill. Which is like saying you're the hardest piece of paper to rip.

Quote:
Especially in close quarter combat areas like Yavins mid node.
I always approach each match and encounter differently. No two are the same (usually), evaluating wether you have a healer, how strong their team is vs yours, what their team composition is compared to yours, will you need to do multiple suicide runs to prevent caps. All of those things can change how you personally play the match.
I don't talk about matches where either team was rofl stomping. And again, I'm not incompetent in the role. I'm just much better at tanking.

Quote:
Sometimes if I know my team is having trouble holding a node and only keep respawning just in time, I will disengage before the last 2 die and hide with in striking distance. Then when they are about to finish a cap, I will jump in to delay a bit longer. Sure I might die before I can get enough back up to heal or get healed, but just delaying that little bit more can make or brake a close match like that.
Again I am perfectly capable of basic strategy. Why does my opinion on squishiness insist on making people sense incompetence?
Quote:
Another tactic I use to great effect, but can cause me to die a lot, is to help take the pressure off my team by pulling as many enemy away from the fray at the node. If I know the enemy team has non stealth guarding, there is a good chance I can put enough pressure on them to make them panic and draw multiple enemy to that node, which takes pressure off my guys. This tactic is much easier now because people over rotate and also donít call numbers. So itís likely 3-4 enemies will come running to back up them up. When that happens, Iím going to die, but it also helps give my team a breather and allows more of my guys to be respawned when the enemy gets back to them.
I have done this as well but prefer to leave it to specs that can pull it off far more effectively. Like stealthers, maras, mercs, or snipers.
Quote:
With dps Juggs, you take the good with the bad. They produce awesome dps burst or great dot damage. But they trade off some survival to do so. People are saying that Maraís are OP because their survivability is too much (not going to open that can again, so Iíll keave it there), so buffing Juggs in the wrong way would put them in the OP crosshairs too. What ever Bioware were to do, it would need to be extremely subtle and we know Bioware dont do subtle. My concern with asking for a buff is they will over do it. I already feel the defences are strong, so nothing needs buffing there. They could add some mobility or resistance to stuns/mez/roots or an extra escape. But adding anything to damage reduction or self heal would be a massive mistake IMO.
As I said like 2 posts ago, id rather be underwhelming than op and eat a nerf hammer. We have one DR cool down in ward that's shared with sents. Enure which is an absolute joke in PvP to dps (even tanks with no healer around). Focused defense which is a one off 50% heal as a dps. And reflect. Which no one bothers ignoring any more and maras can just laugh at as they kill you. Screw more self heals too. It's already far too talked about for how little it practically does for dps.

To my mind guardian is supposed to be the in your face fighting class. Mara sort of, but guardian is the one that should have better survivability at the expense of some damage. Maras are the glass cannons. They should be top damage but easier to kill right now they do better damage with better survivability. So yes. I have an inferiority complex.

The issue right now is there are basically 2 categories in dps survivability and the gap is large.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
01.30.2018 , 07:04 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
And how good the other team is at focusing. Sure I can slaughter suckers all day. That's not the comparison I'm trying to make, however.

While I admit I have a certain degree of an in your face playstyle (I main tanks after all), I quickly learned this would not work. I mained vigi for 8 months and often topped damage boards doing it. I'm hardly incompetent.

As I said earlier I spent 8 months maining vigi and have been playing PvP for more than 3years. I don't go off soloing nodes and if I'm hanging around a node where my team died it's because they have said the distraction is working. This is also much more effective on my tank, which has some semblance of ability to eat focus. Again, I'm not incompetent.

Compared to the 2 sentinels and stealth capper thst all pull more damage than me? Ok sure, the tank main guardian that does reasonable if unimpressive damage is the threat. Hint: sarcasm.

Um, duh. I always call and since I generally have at least one friend help is guaranteed.

Um, I've said this myself literally everywhere on this forum. As a tank my primary reason for wanting guard gone from dps is because they're too squishy to do it and I'm constantly yelling at someone to remove it so I can guard. Anyone that thinks otherwise is an idiot.

Since I'm generally running a premade I can normally LOS around the columns until a friend arrives. Unless of course there's a stealther spam capping the door.

The survivability comparison between tank and dps is almost hilarious. Focused defense actually is a heal to full. I can use enure and expect to live with a healer around. And I have an extra DCD to boot. I do not want dps to have the survivability of a tank obviously not do I feel that's a fair comparison to make. A fairer comparison is to our cousin the sents. Who have no self heals but actual DCDs and an actual avoidance measure. I'd swap focused defense for a sents toolkit on my dps any day.

Also, tank dps comparisons are fundamentally unfair because the role is entirely different. I don't give one crap how much damage I do on a tank. I do care how much I prevent my team members from dying.

You're cute if you think focused defense makes guardians as good as sents. With any sort of focus, no guardian dps is going to get it off more than once. I outlined my response to each scenario above, and repeat I'm not incompetent. In fact I'm one of the harder dps guardians to kill. Which is like saying you're the hardest piece of paper to rip.

I don't talk about matches where either team was rofl stomping. And again, I'm not incompetent in the role. I'm just much better at tanking.

Again I am perfectly capable of basic strategy. Why does my opinion on squishiness insist on making people sense incompetence?

I have done this as well but prefer to leave it to specs that can pull it off far more effectively. Like stealthers, maras, mercs, or snipers.

As I said like 2 posts ago, id rather be underwhelming than op and eat a nerf hammer. We have one DR cool down in ward that's shared with sents. Enure which is an absolute joke in PvP to dps (even tanks with no healer around). Focused defense which is a one off 50% heal as a dps. And reflect. Which no one bothers ignoring any more and maras can just laugh at as they kill you. Screw more self heals too. It's already far too talked about for how little it practically does for dps.

To my mind guardian is supposed to be the in your face fighting class. Mara sort of, but guardian is the one that should have better survivability at the expense of some damage. Maras are the glass cannons. They should be top damage but easier to kill right now they do better damage with better survivability. So yes. I have an inferiority complex.

The issue right now is there are basically 2 categories in dps survivability and the gap is large.
Your response to my post felt like you took what I was said personally. It wasnít really directed at you, I was giving reasons as to why people can die 10 times on a Jugg and it not be a problem. My examples were just those, examples of things that can happen. In no way was I saying you did any of those things or that you didnít know what you were doing.
All of those things have happened to me at some stage over the years, I was drawering on my own memories. Lots of people read the forums but never post (or they used to). My intent was to impart some knowledge to anyone who might not know some of that stuff. ie, Using LoS on a melee and not leaping directly into the fray.
All of those things I listed were also from a solo pug queue perspective because things are different in a premade. If I was doing it from a premade perspective I would have written things a bit differently.
So, please I really hope you didnít take any of that personally or think it was an attack on you, because it wasnít.
Also, the examples I threw in of Maraís werenít meant to be direct comparisons or say Juggs were as good, once again they were examples of how another class, even one with better defence, can find themselves in difficulty.
We both agree that Juggs shouldnít be over buffed, but we disagree on how they should. Thatís cool, differing opinions/approaches to a problem can be healthy to debate. I wasnít trying to disparage what you thought they needed, I was trying to support my own position of what I thought was needed to make them a little better without making them OP.
If you thought I was acccusing you of being incompetent or a noob, I wasnít. And if it came across that way, I apologise.
FYI, thanks for calling me cute, I know you were trying to politely say I as a nub, but every girl likes being called cute, so Iíll take it as compliment and forget it was meant to be a small insult

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
01.30.2018 , 07:40 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
Your response to my post felt like you took what I was said personally. It wasnít really directed at you, I was giving reasons as to why people can die 10 times on a Jugg and it not be a problem. My examples were just those, examples of things that can happen. In no way was I saying you did any of those things or that you didnít know what you were doing.
All of those things have happened to me at some stage over the years, I was drawering on my own memories. Lots of people read the forums but never post (or they used to). My intent was to impart some knowledge to anyone who might not know some of that stuff. ie, Using LoS on a melee and not leaping directly into the fray.
All of those things I listed were also from a solo pug queue perspective because things are different in a premade. If I was doing it from a premade perspective I would have written things a bit differently.
So, please I really hope you didnít take any of that personally or think it was an attack on you, because it wasnít.
Also, the examples I threw in of Maraís werenít meant to be direct comparisons or say Juggs were as good, once again they were examples of how another class, even one with better defence, can find themselves in difficulty.
We both agree that Juggs shouldnít be over buffed, but we disagree on how they should. Thatís cool, differing opinions/approaches to a problem can be healthy to debate. I wasnít trying to disparage what you thought they needed, I was trying to support my own position of what I thought was needed to make them a little better without making them OP.
If you thought I was acccusing you of being incompetent or a noob, I wasnít. And if it came across that way, I apologise.
FYI, thanks for calling me cute, I know you were trying to politely say I as a nub, but every girl likes being called cute, so Iíll take it as compliment and forget it was meant to be a small insult
If you didn't mean me personally, I'm sorry. I saw a quote followed by a list of items that are commonly done that are not the smartest things to do.

All I really think dps guardians need is an anti focus of some form. Vg needs the extra DCD or something.

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
02.01.2018 , 04:17 PM | #78
We need stances reinstated.
Itís as simple as that if they gave us active stances back you could easily gear towards semi DPS and tanky as youíve noticed the DPS is there so losing a mere 3-4K DPS to for lengthier durability then we would be better hands down.

The whole reason I rolled a Juggernaut all them years back was the fact I could semi tank in DPS without a huge decrease in DPS considering the stance gave extra defence and especially with a shield.

I always thought Juggernauts were suppose to be wrecking balls and I agree the self heal change actually the last nail in the coffin. If it was changed to a gradual heal without needing damage taken but personally I also dislike the temporary health boost that should have been a permanent self heal.

But most of the issues is down to them taking away active stances and changing the self heal.
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KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
02.01.2018 , 04:33 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSealth View Post
We need stances reinstated.
Itís as simple as that if they gave us active stances back you could easily gear towards semi DPS and tanky as youíve noticed the DPS is there so losing a mere 3-4K DPS to for lengthier durability then we would be better hands down.

The whole reason I rolled a Juggernaut all them years back was the fact I could semi tank in DPS without a huge decrease in DPS considering the stance gave extra defence and especially with a shield.

I always thought Juggernauts were suppose to be wrecking balls and I agree the self heal change actually the last nail in the coffin. If it was changed to a gradual heal without needing damage taken but personally I also dislike the temporary health boost that should have been a permanent self heal.

But most of the issues is down to them taking away active stances and changing the self heal.
As a tank I was actually happy about this particular change. As a dps with a shield and soresu all you're doing is nerfing damage for a slight increase in survivability.. The dps loss isn't minimal. Assume you're right and say it's 3-4k. That's like at least 1/3-1/2 of your damage gone, for the sake of almost negligible survivability.

I don't like skanking (tank with dps stats) but it is the most effective means of tanking in PvP. Tanking in pvp is, contrary to popular belief and despite the dps stats on gear, is about buffing your allies and debuffing your enemies. Guard swapping and taunting to buff your teams survivability. Things like stuns and debuffs to accuracy/healing/etc to your enemy. I really couldn't give one crap what my damage at the end of the board looks like. If my team didn't outlast the enemy I've done something wrong.

I do agree that the ninja nerf to focused defense scaling hurt and that enure is practically useless to a dps in pvp (even a tank with no healer)

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
02.01.2018 , 05:04 PM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
As a tank I was actually happy about this particular change. As a dps with a shield and soresu all you're doing is nerfing damage for a slight increase in survivability.. The dps loss isn't minimal. Assume you're right and say it's 3-4k. That's like at least 1/3-1/2 of your damage gone, for the sake of almost negligible survivability.

I don't like skanking (tank with dps stats) but it is the most effective means of tanking in PvP. Tanking in pvp is, contrary to popular belief and despite the dps stats on gear, is about buffing your allies and debuffing your enemies. Guard swapping and taunting to buff your teams survivability. Things like stuns and debuffs to accuracy/healing/etc to your enemy. I really couldn't give one crap what my damage at the end of the board looks like. If my team didn't outlast the enemy I've done something wrong.

I do agree that the ninja nerf to focused defense scaling hurt and that enure is practically useless to a dps in pvp (even a tank with no healer)
I think the ďlittle bit of survivabilityĒ is a understatement as the stance use to give you ĎEnters a defensive lightsaber form, reducing all damage taken by 6%, increasing armor rating by 60% and increasing threat generation by 50%. Soresu Form also increases shield chance by 15%. While active, taking damage builds 1 rage, but all Assault abilities generate 1 less rage. This effect cannot occur more than once every 6 seconds.í without the ability to use/active a shield that shields and absorbs a large amount of damage and for the survivability being a far superior increase it would give a far higher overall dmg in the long term because of increase in durability.

Also itís worth noting prior when I used this layout I used defensive mods for shield and one piece of armour the other six had DPS bonus sets with the use of the stance and the old self heal I mostly held my own against every DPS spec Iíd even say every spec in game unless my CD was up or I was group attacked.
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