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APAC Server Merge and 'Myths' about Ping


grallmate

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Much of the following argument is based on information taken from this post on 22.04.2012:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4095498

 

The important information is contained in the first spoiler tag (copied below) which compares packet numbers and bandwidth usage between World of Warcraft and SWTOR. When standing still in a populated area SWTOR sends 110 packets every 10 seconds while WoW sends 36 in the same time. While jumping WoW sends 5, SWTOR sends 12. While standing alone, either in a private instance or with no one else on screen the 2 are very comparable.

 

 

 

So, some breakdown on the numbers of why I think that their synchronous network I/O and syncrhonous asset loading on the client is cause of all lag in SW:TOR. I'm comparing WoW (which creates the illusion of collective areas seemlessly) with SW:TOR (which uses isolated instances, the more traditional MQ room compartmentalization)

 

The tool I'm using is SmartSniff on Windows 7.

 

A few observations:

 

  • SW:TOR push down packets according to area of sight. (AOS) Stand near a crowd and you get more, stand away from a crowd, you get less. This active push prioritization would lead to false positives in QA environments simply because they could not properly recreate an environment that would tax the discerning algorithm.
  • WoW appears to not care about where you are or what you are doing, no matter where you are, no matter how many people exist in your AOS, which is interesting, especially considering the dramatically less amount of traffic you send and get from them. WoW data is also surprisingly uniform.
  • The physics engine in the SW:TOR client appears to be authoritative regarding movement. This means that if I jump, the client broadcasts data every single video frame until I land on the ground again. They appear to be trying to run an FPS setup that typically uses UDP on a massive scale using TCP. This is proof positive that SW:TOR network i/o strat is not good and was poorly conceived.
  • They both use TCP.
  • SW:TOR is pulling down data the entire time during any loading screen. WoW only pulls them down at the 90% of its initial loading screen. In many cases, the loading screens are just overlays, not actual states separate from the play state.
  • We have a report of a Midwest player accessing a East Coast server and getting -half- of the data sent in the 10 second time span. Lots of factors can go into that and I'm trying to figure out what that means...

 

Without further ado, here are the numbers.

 

SW:TOR Data usage:

 

Standing in a populated area (Combat Training area) of a single instance of the Imperial Fleet for 10 seconds with 152 people in the instance:

 

Packets: 110

Data Sent: 426 bytes

Data Received: 4,877 Bytes

 

Standing in a sparse area (Far north of the Supplies area) of a single instance of the Imperial Fleet for 10 seconds with 152 people in the instance:

 

Packets: 36

Data Sent: 244 Bytes

Data Received: 1,783 Bytes

 

Standing in an impossible to populate instance (your ship):

 

Packets: 16

Data Sent: 166 Bytes

Data Received: 857 Bytes

 

Jumping.

 

Packets: 12 packets

Data Sent: 307 Bytes

Data Received: 854 Bytes

 

WoW Data usage:

 

Standing in a populated area (near the AH) of the collective instance of Stormwind for 10 seconds with hundreds of people in the zone:

 

Packets: 36

Data Sent: 42 Bytes

Data Received: 1,536 Bytes

 

Standing in a sparse area (far north @ Wollerton Steed) of a single instance of Stormwind for 10 seconds with hundreds of people in the zone:

 

Packets: 33 packets

Data Sent: 191 Bytes (I jumped.. oops)

Data Received: 1,611 Bytes

 

Standing in an impossible to populate instance (Stockades in my own group with only me in it):

 

Packets: 27

Data Sent: 56 bytes

Data Received: 1,190 bytes

 

Jumping.

 

Packets: 5

Data Sent: 163 bytes

Data Received: 463 bytes

 

 

 

For anyone that has actually played the game you know this is about right. Get lots of people on screen or in a heavily populated area and your performance takes a nose dive, and that just with them standing still. Compare the difference between an 8 man and a 16 man Ops fight and you will see a large performance difference. Simply put, the engine is not well optimized for a large number of players on screen which we all already know.

 

Now I assume everyone who reads this already knows what ping means but I'll reiterate just in case. Ping is the amount of time a single packet takes to reach the destination server and return.

 

So what does this have to do with the APAC players being merged onto US West Coast servers? Well 1 argument I see frequently thrown around is: "You play WoW (or any arbitrary other MMO) on US servers and don't complain". Let me break it down:

 

SWTOR uses an excessive number of packets which isn't a huge problem in and of itself but when combined with a high ping the problems amplify. SWTOR in a populated area sends and average (from the above numbers) of 1 packet every 90 ms while WoW sends one every 270ms. Using SOLELY those numbers and assuming sequential packet exchange you can see that going from 40 ms - 200 ms ping has no effect on the WoW engine while it has a noticeable effect on the SWTOR engine. Using the above assumption, as long as the ping time is within the update window there should be negligible performance difference between high and low ping. However, if the ping time exceeds the update window the performance difference becomes a lot more noticeable. 200 ms ping on SWTOR exceeds that update window, on WoW it doesn't.

 

All that assumes that one packet must be received before the next can be sent, which isn't the case. SWTOR can send the packet with my next ability activation before it receives the previous packet but that can provide other issues. Abilities that have a precondition are especially vulnerable to issues with this, examples include Followthrough and Railshot. Riposte is also affect but is off the GCD so the effect is less important. I've seen the effect lag can have on those abilities when playing through a proxy which gave me 180 ms ping compared to my normal 26 ms ping.

 

Finally, to all those saying the increase is "only 120 ms": Yes the absolute change is quite small, however the relative change is huge. That is a 400-700% increase in ping depending on your location. To put that in perspective, someone with 30 ms ping can potentially receive 6(!) updates from the server in the time a player with 180 ms ping receives ONE. Imagine watching a movie at 8 frames a second compared to 48 frames a second, they're both watchable, they're both enjoyable but I know which one I'd prefer and I know which one almost everyone who has told the APAC to "shut up and accept it" would choose.

 

Finally I leave you all with a thought:

If you walk into Ye Olde Ice Cream Shoppe and they ask you: "What flavor you would like?" to which you and all your friends say "I'd like Chocolate please." Then they come back and hand you all vanilla while saying: "You can have vanilla because I think it tastes better (and its more financially viable)".

 

Now go back and replace:

- "Ye Olde Ice Cream Shoppe" with "Bioware"

- "Flavor" with "Population solution"

- "Chocolate" with "APAC Super Server"

- "Vanilla" with "US Server merges"

- "Tastes" with "Plays"

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Much of the following argument is based on information taken from this post on 22.04.2012:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4095498

 

The important information is contained in the first spoiler tag (copied below) which compares packet numbers and bandwidth usage between World of Warcraft and SWTOR. When standing still in a populated area SWTOR sends 110 packets every 10 seconds while WoW sends 36 in the same time. While jumping WoW sends 5, SWTOR sends 12. While standing alone, either in a private instance or with no one else on screen the 2 are very comparable.

 

 

 

For anyone that has actually played the game you know this is about right. Get lots of people on screen or in a heavily populated area and your performance takes a nose dive, and that just with them standing still. Compare the difference between an 8 man and a 16 man Ops fight and you will see a large performance difference. Simply put, the engine is not well optimized for a large number of players on screen which we all already know.

 

Now I assume everyone who reads this already knows what ping means but I'll reiterate just in case. Ping is the amount of time a single packet takes to reach the destination server and return.

 

So what does this have to do with the APAC players being merged onto US West Coast servers? Well 1 argument I see frequently thrown around is: "You play WoW (or any arbitrary other MMO) on US servers and don't complain". Let me break it down:

 

SWTOR uses an excessive number of packets which isn't a huge problem in and of itself but when combined with a high ping the problems amplify. SWTOR in a populated area sends and average (from the above numbers) of 1 packet every 90 ms while WoW sends one every 270ms. Using SOLELY those numbers and assuming sequential packet exchange you can see that going from 40 ms - 200 ms ping has no effect on the WoW engine while it has a noticeable effect on the SWTOR engine. Using the above assumption, as long as the ping time is within the update window there should be negligible performance difference between high and low ping. However, if the ping time exceeds the update window the performance difference becomes a lot more noticeable. 200 ms ping on SWTOR exceeds that update window, on WoW it doesn't.

 

All that assumes that one packet must be received before the next can be sent, which isn't the case. SWTOR can send the packet with my next ability activation before it receives the previous packet but that can provide other issues. Abilities that have a precondition are especially vulnerable to issues with this, examples include Followthrough and Railshot. Riposte is also affect but is off the GCD so the effect is less important. I've seen the effect lag can have on those abilities when playing through a proxy which gave me 180 ms ping compared to my normal 26 ms ping.

 

Finally, to all those saying the increase is "only 120 ms": Yes the absolute change is quite small, however the relative change is huge. That is a 400-700% increase in ping depending on your location. To put that in perspective, someone with 30 ms ping can potentially receive 6(!) updates from the server in the time a player with 180 ms ping receives ONE. Imagine watching a movie at 8 frames a second compared to 48 frames a second, they're both watchable, they're both enjoyable but I know which one I'd prefer and I know which one almost everyone who has told the APAC to "shut up and accept it" would choose.

 

Finally I leave you all with a thought:

If you walk into Ye Olde Ice Cream Shoppe and they ask you: "What flavor you would like?" to which you and all your friends say "I'd like Chocolate please." Then they come back and hand you all vanilla while saying: "You can have vanilla because I think it tastes better (and its more financially viable)".

 

Now go back and replace:

- "Ye Olde Ice Cream Shoppe" with "Bioware"

- "Flavor" with "Population solution"

- "Chocolate" with "APAC Super Server"

- "Vanilla" with "US Server merges"

- "Tastes" with "Plays"

 

 

There is already an "official" thread for the APAC issue,why you guys keep spamming?

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There is already an "official" thread for the APAC issue,why you guys keep spamming?

 

To counter: There are already hundreds of posts on virtually every single topic in this game, why then do we even need to start a new thread at all?

 

When spending 20 minute or more developing a well thought out and evidenced post it doesn't deserve to be lost in 450+ pages of posts nor would posting it in that thread be even remotely effective beyond the next 20 minutes.

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There is already an "official" thread for the APAC issue,why you guys keep spamming?

 

They got a raw deal, I can't say I blame them. I play West from East at ~100-120ms, and phantom GCDs and the like aren't much fun -- but I made that choice voluntarily for my guild, it wasn't thrust upon me.

 

That said, the numbers used here are questionable. Year old 10 second samples (!) purported to be indicative of current general usage only serve to muddle a relatively simple concept -- it's going to get laggier.

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If you walk into Ye Olde Ice Cream Shoppe and they ask you: "What flavor you would like?" to which you and all your friends say "I'd like Chocolate please." Then they come back and hand you all vanilla while saying: "You can have vanilla because I think it tastes better (and its more financially viable)".

 

I cannot process the example as there are no ice cream shops here :(

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I've played on 30 ms, an average of 140 ms and an average of 200ms servers and the faster ones are noticeably better. The game looked/felt just fine when I played in a normal fashion on the 140 ms server but when I parsed it became pretty evident that something was up. When parsing you're generally keeping better track of the damage pop-ups too and I noticed that a lot of dots werent even showing up. The slowest server, me being in EU and the server being on the US West Coast, was just a disaster in comparison to the other servers. I frequently had to deal with teleporting and damage out of nowhere.

 

So based on my own experience I'd say that as long as you get to be under 150ms it's playable. You will probably run into some output issues compared to a "local" server but it won't have a significant impact on your experience. This is based on the assumption that your own connection is consistent. When it´'s reaching 200ms and beyond it will start to directly affect you. But then again, if that's all you've ever played on you'll probably accept it so its going to be easier for new players than those who are forced to transfer.

Edited by MidichIorian
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That said, the numbers used here are questionable. Year old 10 second samples (!) purported to be indicative of current general usage only serve to muddle a relatively simple concept -- it's going to get laggier.

 

I agree that year old samples are not ideal but as far as I can tell they are still accurate. There have been plenty of client side optimizations in the last year (Graphics, Shadows) but as far as I can tell the issue with the network traffic is an engine issue. The thread I linked at the start said it pretty well:

No matter how much you optimize an O(n^2) algorithm it is still O(n^2).

 

For those of you that don't speak O(n) and algorithm optimization. N is the size of the data set you will run the algorithm on, in this case, players. As you have more players the algorithm will always take longer to complete but O(n^2) becomes a LOT worse than O(n) or O(n log n) algorithms. At n = 10 they're close enough that computer processing power covers the difference. At n = 1000 you can forget about it. O(n) notation is basically about working out the steps required in the algorithm as an algebraic function then you get rid of all the non-n values.

 

Regardless of that, the main points were:

- SWTOR is much worse than WoW packet wise so comparisons to WoW aren't valid when arguing about ping.

- SWTORs packet volume amplifies the problem of increased ping, especially when the ping exceeds the 'update window'

- Relative increase in ping is just as important as absolute increase.

 

EDIT: Oh and don't ask a customer what they wan't if you're just going to give them something completely different.

Edited by grallmate
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EDIT: Oh and don't ask a customer what they wan't if you're just going to give them something completely different.

 

You had a fine thread, worthy of thoughtful consderation, until you decided to slap this bumper sticker on it.

 

There were thousands of customers in this case, and from long reading of the long running APAC concerns thread... there was also no Unanimity amongst APAC players as a group. Some of you wanted servers left as is, some wanted servers merged within APAC (though there was little agreement as to how), and some wanted to be merged with US or EU servers (because populations were more important then latency to some of the APAC players).

Edited by Andryah
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You had a fine thread, worthy of thoughtful consderation, until you decided to slap this bumper sticker on it.

 

There were thousands of customers in this case, and from long reading of the long running APAC concerns thread... there was also no Unanimity amongst APAC players as a group. Some of you wanted servers left as is, some wanted servers merged within APAC (though there was little agreement as to how), and some wanted to be merged with US or EU servers (because populations were more important then latency to some of the APAC players).

 

That was the TL;DR of Ye Olde Ice Cream Shoppe scenario, since I was summarizing I thought I'd add that one as well. Similarly, you had a great post worthy of consideration until you decided to disregard an argument based entirely on 1 point. That's like saying gravity doesn't exist because we can fly.

 

As a member of the APAC I've also been quite vocal on that thread until the last few days. I don't see the point of arguing with people on a thread that is moving so fast you're lucky to be seen for a couple of hours before its pages deep. Hell in the time it took me to write my previous post in that thread it had grown by 3 pages.

 

I'm not claiming to speak for everyone in the APAC when I say this and if someone would like to actually survey 470+ pages of the thread to catalog individual preferences I'm happy to concede to that evidence. However, my observations of the thread over the last several months were that most people wanted to be merged to Dalborra. A few players on Master Dar'Nala wanted to go to a US based PvP server and some of Gav Daragon wished to remain where they were. I don't recall seeing any state they wished to move to a US RP server but I may have just missed those posts.

 

Regardless, I fail to see how this affects you in the slightest unless you play on one of the new Destination servers, and if you do, it stands to affect you in a negative way thanks to naming clashes while providing a negligible benefit by increasing the Destination servers already high populations.

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You had a fine thread, worthy of thoughtful consderation, until you decided to slap this bumper sticker on it.

 

There were thousands of customers in this case, and from long reading of the long running APAC concerns thread... there was also no Unanimity amongst APAC players as a group. Some of you wanted servers left as is, some wanted servers merged within APAC (though there was little agreement as to how), and some wanted to be merged with US or EU servers (because populations were more important then latency to some of the APAC players).

 

No what we saw was a couple of people didn't see an issue, a couple of people wanted to transfer their APAC toons off to consolidate with ones rerolled on other servers, and the vast majority wanted an APAC superserver. Stop trying to misrepresent what people were asking for in the thread. Its as bad as the rubbish that Eric posted in reponse.

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Much of the following argument is based on information taken from this post on 22.04.2012:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4095498

 

The important information is contained in the first spoiler tag (copied below) which compares packet numbers and bandwidth usage between World of Warcraft and SWTOR. When standing still in a populated area SWTOR sends 110 packets every 10 seconds while WoW sends 36 in the same time. While jumping WoW sends 5, SWTOR sends 12. While standing alone, either in a private instance or with no one else on screen the 2 are very comparable.

 

 

 

For anyone that has actually played the game you know this is about right. Get lots of people on screen or in a heavily populated area and your performance takes a nose dive, and that just with them standing still. Compare the difference between an 8 man and a 16 man Ops fight and you will see a large performance difference. Simply put, the engine is not well optimized for a large number of players on screen which we all already know.

 

Now I assume everyone who reads this already knows what ping means but I'll reiterate just in case. Ping is the amount of time a single packet takes to reach the destination server and return.

 

So what does this have to do with the APAC players being merged onto US West Coast servers? Well 1 argument I see frequently thrown around is: "You play WoW (or any arbitrary other MMO) on US servers and don't complain". Let me break it down:

 

SWTOR uses an excessive number of packets which isn't a huge problem in and of itself but when combined with a high ping the problems amplify. SWTOR in a populated area sends and average (from the above numbers) of 1 packet every 90 ms while WoW sends one every 270ms. Using SOLELY those numbers and assuming sequential packet exchange you can see that going from 40 ms - 200 ms ping has no effect on the WoW engine while it has a noticeable effect on the SWTOR engine. Using the above assumption, as long as the ping time is within the update window there should be negligible performance difference between high and low ping. However, if the ping time exceeds the update window the performance difference becomes a lot more noticeable. 200 ms ping on SWTOR exceeds that update window, on WoW it doesn't.

 

All that assumes that one packet must be received before the next can be sent, which isn't the case. SWTOR can send the packet with my next ability activation before it receives the previous packet but that can provide other issues. Abilities that have a precondition are especially vulnerable to issues with this, examples include Followthrough and Railshot. Riposte is also affect but is off the GCD so the effect is less important. I've seen the effect lag can have on those abilities when playing through a proxy which gave me 180 ms ping compared to my normal 26 ms ping.

 

Finally, to all those saying the increase is "only 120 ms": Yes the absolute change is quite small, however the relative change is huge. That is a 400-700% increase in ping depending on your location. To put that in perspective, someone with 30 ms ping can potentially receive 6(!) updates from the server in the time a player with 180 ms ping receives ONE. Imagine watching a movie at 8 frames a second compared to 48 frames a second, they're both watchable, they're both enjoyable but I know which one I'd prefer and I know which one almost everyone who has told the APAC to "shut up and accept it" would choose.

 

Finally I leave you all with a thought:

If you walk into Ye Olde Ice Cream Shoppe and they ask you: "What flavor you would like?" to which you and all your friends say "I'd like Chocolate please." Then they come back and hand you all vanilla while saying: "You can have vanilla because I think it tastes better (and its more financially viable)".

 

Now go back and replace:

- "Ye Olde Ice Cream Shoppe" with "Bioware"

- "Flavor" with "Population solution"

- "Chocolate" with "APAC Super Server"

- "Vanilla" with "US Server merges"

- "Tastes" with "Plays"

 

Your analogy would work best if the Ice Cream guy comes back with Vanilla and goes "This is all I have, as the chocolate is gone and it's too expensive for me to keep ordering for six people out of a couple of thousand. Want some vanilla?"

 

"No, I really want some chocolate."

 

"You can try those other shops over there."

 

"They don't have chocolate either. You were the only one selling chocolate."

 

"Well, a bunch of your friends demanded chocolate and then only got a few scoops and then quit buying it. That's why I ordered it in the first place. But, if enough people aren't buying it, then it's just too damned expensive for me to keep ordering."

 

"But, I really want some chocolate."

 

"How about I mix some dirt in with the vanilla, instead?"

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Your analogy would work best if the Ice Cream guy comes back with Vanilla and goes "This is all I have, as the chocolate is gone and it's too expensive for me to keep ordering for six people out of a couple of thousand. Want some vanilla?"

 

"No, I really want some chocolate."

 

"You can try those other shops over there."

 

"They don't have chocolate either. You were the only one selling chocolate."

 

"Well, a bunch of your friends demanded chocolate and then only got a few scoops and then quit buying it. That's why I ordered it in the first place. But, if enough people aren't buying it, then it's just too damned expensive for me to keep ordering."

 

"But, I really want some chocolate."

 

"How about I mix some dirt in with the vanilla, instead?"

 

Actually BW have yet to officially state its got anything to do with their balance sheet. They are still claiming its about delivering the best experience for the players. I just chucked in the "financially viable" line as a little snide remark. As such, if BW were to come out and say that an APAC server isn't financially viable I'd accept it. Hell, I'd be happy with a "APAC" server located in the US since it would allow most of us to keep our names and our identity.

 

Yes my entire OP argues against that option thanks to ping but if I have to compromise I'd take that option, similarly we (the entire server) would be on a fairly even footing when it comes to ping.

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They got a raw deal, I can't say I blame them. I play West from East at ~100-120ms, and phantom GCDs and the like aren't much fun -- but I made that choice voluntarily for my guild, it wasn't thrust upon me.

 

That said, the numbers used here are questionable. Year old 10 second samples (!) purported to be indicative of current general usage only serve to muddle a relatively simple concept -- it's going to get laggier.

 

so what ? leave or quit,

i got 200ms ping in US server,

but got 400 up ping in APAC,

accept merge to US or quit, deal with it.

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Regardless, I fail to see how this affects you in the slightest unless you play on one of the new Destination servers, and if you do, it stands to affect you in a negative way thanks to naming clashes while providing a negligible benefit by increasing the Destination servers already high populations.

 

As a forum member, I has as much right to discuss any open topic as you do. And since I do play on Harbinger, I am looking forward to seeing more Aussies come to the server. And I do not see anything negative about that whatsoever to the server. If anything.. the time differences will better balance total loading of the server over time and give people in both regions that play outside of local primetime hours more people to play with.

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Thanks for the info OP, great post, has helped me to make a decision once ESO is launched :)

 

Oh and I do get sick of the rude people who feel we shouldn't say anything about the merge......

 

Oh your so right, we should just suck it up hey :rolleyes:

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As a forum member, I has as much right to discuss any open topic as you do. And since I do play on Harbinger, I am looking forward to seeing more Aussies come to the server. And I do not see anything negative about that whatsoever to the server. If anything.. the time differences will better balance total loading of the server over time and give people in both regions that play outside of local primetime hours more people to play with.

 

Then as a forum member, and someone who has so much respect for BW, perhaps you could remain on topic and discuss the key points raised in my OP rather than tangentially discussing Population vs Ping or blatantly ignoring much of a post due to one line at the end.

 

Again, the main points were:

- SWTOR is much worse than WoW packet wise so comparisons to WoW aren't valid when arguing about ping.

- SWTORs packet volume amplifies the problem of increased ping, especially when the ping exceeds the 'update window'

- Relative increase in ping is just as important as absolute increase.

 

My primary goal with this post was to refute that population is greater than ping with respect to WoW's US based Oceanic servers by comparing the packet use from both games using readily available data. Hopefully the analysis shows that ping has a greater value in SWTOR than in WoW while the population value remains similar between the two.

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Again, the main points were:

- SWTOR is much worse than WoW packet wise so comparisons to WoW aren't valid when arguing about ping.

- SWTORs packet volume amplifies the problem of increased ping, especially when the ping exceeds the 'update window'

- Relative increase in ping is just as important as absolute increase.

 

My primary goal with this post was to refute that population is greater than ping with respect to WoW's US based Oceanic servers by comparing the packet use from both games using readily available data. Hopefully the analysis shows that ping has a greater value in SWTOR than in WoW while the population value remains similar between the two.

 

And, this affects the decision by Bioware how exactly?

 

Fact: People from Australia play on US West servers in SWTOR. They seem to be able to cope with it. I personally have played the reverse route and after an hour or two of adjustment... was able to cope with it without much problem.

 

As for WoW, it's irrelevant to the discussion.. other then to note that they never provided you low latency servers. SWTOR is one of the few MMOs that actually tired... and failed.... and they are getting beaten over the head about it from the playerbase that cannot support localized servers with sufficient population to make it commercially worth the continued effort.

 

If you want to argue that it ruins competitive PvP..... I would agree with you. The hardcore PvP competitors will complain if latency goes above 30 and will do all manner of tweaking to trim 10ms off of latency. Not everone plays SWTOR for competitive PvP however. Actually for competitive PvP it's generally a subpar MMO IMO.

Edited by Andryah
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Then as a forum member, and someone who has so much respect for BW, perhaps you could remain on topic and discuss the key points raised in my OP rather than tangentially discussing Population vs Ping or blatantly ignoring much of a post due to one line at the end.

 

Hey pal.. you are the one that just could not resist putting that one line "dog nip at Bioware" into your thread topic. ;)

 

I simply responded to it.

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Oh and I do get sick of the rude people who feel we shouldn't say anything about the merge......

 

Oh your so right, we should just suck it up hey :rolleyes:

 

No, you are free to complain and whine for as long as you like. But don't expect to do so without response. ;)

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Hey pal.. you are the one that just could not resist putting that one line "dog nip at Bioware" into your thread topic. ;)

 

I simply responded to it.

 

As I said, that was a TL;DR of "Ye Olde Ice Cream Shoppe" scenario in the OP, along with the TL;DR of every other point I made in the OP. It was not a nip at BW, it was a legitimate synopsis of the entire situation from the viewpoint of many APAC players and still stands: Why ask me what I want if you are going to give me something completely different?

 

And, this affects the decision by Bioware how exactly?

 

Fact: People from Australia play on US West servers in SWTOR. They seem to be able to cope with it. I personally have played the reverse route and after an hour or two of adjustment... was able to cope with it without much problem.

 

As for WoW, it's irrelevant to the discussion.. other then to note that they never provided you low latency servers. SWTOR is one of the few MMOs that actually tired... and failed.... and they are getting beaten over the head about it from the playerbase that cannot support localized servers with sufficient population to make it commercially worth the continued effort.

 

If you want to argue that it ruins competitive PvP..... I would agree with you. The hardcore PvP competitors will complain if latency goes above 30 and will do all manner of tweaking to trim 10ms off of latency. Not everone plays SWTOR for competitive PvP however. Actually for competitive PvP it's generally a subpar MMO IMO.

 

I'm not the one that first brought WoW (or any other MMO) into any discussions about SWTOR. I've never played WoW. Hell the only other MMO I've played was RO. I was posting to refute a VERY common argument in favor of the merges, that being that WoW only provides US based servers for APAC and people don't complain there.

 

Anyway Andryah, unless you wish to respond to the points raised in my OP with evidence to refute (or support) them I'm just going to ignore your posts from here on out. Your opinion is very well known on these forums as is your devotion and seemingly blind obedience to BW but should you feel the need to continue posting in this (or the Consolidated APAC thread) allow me to thank you for the free bumps.

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No, you are free to complain and whine for as long as you like. But don't expect to do so without response. ;)

 

Are you an EA/Bioware spokesperson or affiliate whatsoever? I've seen you pop up in a lot of threads across a wide range of topics on this forum and I'm curious why you spend so much time defending Bioware?

 

And as for your views on the APAC servers. It is hard to take you seriously when this decision does not affect you at all. Most of us hold your views in the same contempt we have against Bioware when they say "we know what is best for you". I'll tell you what I told the trolls, show some compassion for an angry community.

Edited by PseudoScience
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Are you an EA/Bioware spokesperson or affiliate whatsoever?

 

As I have stated multiple times when this accusation comes up...no I am not in any way affiliated with Bioware or EA, nor have I ever been in any way affiliated with Bioware or EA.

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Anyway Andryah, unless you wish to respond to the points raised in my OP with evidence to refute (or support) them I'm just going to ignore your posts from here on out. Your opinion is very well known on these forums as is your devotion and seemingly blind obedience to BW but should you feel the need to continue posting in this (or the Consolidated APAC thread) allow me to thank you for the free bumps.

 

I have responded to specific comments made by you in this thread of yours. You want the thread on a narrow focus of discussion, then do not introduce your own snarky seqway commentary.

 

This thread, IMO, offers nothing constructive to the discussion about the APAC server decision by Bioware. It is simply an attempt to create yet another thread for people to complain in. Server ping for SWTOR is what it is for you. WoW server ping, which you now admit never having played, is not relevant. That said, if you bother to read the latency history on the internet for WoW, it reads remarkalby the same as it does for SWTOR.. with one exception.... WoW never gave you low latency local servers to begin with. It was a business and commercial mistake on the part of Bioware to ever provide localization of servers for APAC. Bioware might disagree with my assessment of that failure, but hindsight (which is always 20/20) shows me to be right on this. They took a risk.. they reached out to give improved service to APAC. It failed. They now have to clean up the mess. It's NOT the first mess they have had to clean up where server populations are concerned. But there track record on addressing server population issues is positive over the last year. Was everyone pleased by how they went about it in each case? No. But that is the way it works in real life.

Edited by Andryah
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