http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/20452-darth-hater-interview-game-update-1-3-with-swtor

 

This could either be great or horrible.... thoughts on adjustment to this tree? Do you like it where it is or do you think it needs improvements?

I primarily run MM and while I wouldn't mind some upgrades I'm worried that these 'improvements' may not actually work like that. AKA Mercenary rotation 'fixes' away from tracer missile spam...

Heh... Let's hope "improvements" means a good thing for the sniper marksmen, and not "improvement" in overall class balancing.

 

So far as I've seen in pvp, snipers are where they should be at. I know there's a tree skill in leathality I believe that allows for 15% more speed when you flashbang someone, but I do wish there was a speedy skill for a quick escape. And the only other thing I wish was that there was an AoE use of the 45% accuracy reduction.

MM is crap in PvP, it has the worst combination of type of attacks in this game: Ranged + Energy.

The first one can be dodged and is subject to defense vs accuracy rolls. It can be shielded and absorbed.

The second one suffers tremendously from heavy armor damage reduction.

 

You cannot hunt anyone down with MM. It's just a spec for killing stupid sorcs that have not learned to LoS you. Outside of that it's ****. It's a PvE spec and nothing more.

 

Why some powertech pyro can have a 90% armor pen railshot, and the ability to reset its CD quickly, while we need to hope for an ambush crit is beyond me.

 

Engineering and Lethality are much much more superior, more versatile, more mobile, and in some cases even more durable.

Edited May 23, 2012 by NoTomorrow

MM is crap in PvP, it has the worst combination of type of attacks in this game: Ranged + Energy.

The first one can be dodged and is subject to defense vs accuracy rolls. It can be shielded and absorbed.

The second one suffers tremendously from heavy armor damage reduction.

 

You cannot hunt anyone down with MM. It's just a spec for killing stupid sorcs that have not learned to LoS you. Outside of that it's ****. It's a PvE spec and nothing more.

 

Why some powertech pyro can have a 90% armor pen railshot, and the ability to reset its CD quickly, while we need to hope for an ambush crit is beyond me.

 

Engineering and Lethality are much much more superior, more versatile, more mobile, and in some cases even more durable.

 

Here anyone who knows the truth about MM in PvP. /clap

MM is crap in PvP, it has the worst combination of type of attacks in this game: Ranged + Energy.

The first one can be dodged and is subject to defense vs accuracy rolls. It can be shielded and absorbed.

The second one suffers tremendously from heavy armor damage reduction.

 

You cannot hunt anyone down with MM. It's just a spec for killing stupid sorcs that have not learned to LoS you. Outside of that it's ****. It's a PvE spec and nothing more.

 

Why some powertech pyro can have a 90% armor pen railshot, and the ability to reset its CD quickly, while we need to hope for an ambush crit is beyond me.

 

Engineering and Lethality are much much more superior, more versatile, more mobile, and in some cases even more durable.

 

For all the disadvantages MM has, it literally has no advantage ... hell it isn't highest dps.

 

My sorc the following:

 

-higher dps (easier rotation at that)

-ranged unblockable snare

-sprint

-bubble

-offheals

-unblockable damage (unless assassin or shadow using a 3 to 5 sec ability, compared to all class basic defense and all agent / smuggler evasion which blocks all mm damage)

-friend team pull

-massive mobility (sprint and insta cast dots)

 

i like the looks and idea behind the sniper yet the sorc just out does him atm.

I like how only one of the posts is on topic. >.>

Well if NoTomorrow's post is in regards to what the devs will improve upon for 1.3, well then at least it's clarified.

It's just a spec for killing stupid sorcs that have not learned to LoS you.

[...SNIP...]

Engineering and Lethality are much much more superior, more versatile,more mobile, and in some cases even more durable.

 

This, apart from the other problems that MM has, is the core of the matter IMO, mobility.

Lack of mobility in PVP is death.

 

This is why interupt immunity in cover is not OP in PVP (can't move).

It's why entrench is not OP in PVP (can't move).

It's why having a tiny bit of extra range is not OP in PVP (can't move while chanelling/casting most of it).

 

Then in the design phase they went on and forgot that they already balanced those advantages with the cost to mobilty, and then it seems like they still tweaked most of our core skills (which MM is built upon) around being immune to interupt and having longer range.

We're paying for that already guys...

 

Here's the point where I start talking about how Snipers have more disadvantages for every advantage than other classes do, and I get told I'm talking nonsense...

This, apart from the other problems that MM has, is the core of the matter IMO, mobility.

Lack of mobility in PVP is death.

 

This is why interupt immunity in cover is not OP in PVP (can't move).

It's why entrench is not OP in PVP (can't move).

It's why having a tiny bit of extra range is not OP in PVP (can't move while chanelling/casting most of it).

 

Then in the design phase they went on and forgot that they already balanced those advantages with the cost to mobilty, and then it seems like they still tweaked most of our core skills (which MM is built upon) around being immune to interupt and having longer range.

We're paying for that already guys...

 

Here's the point where I start talking about how Snipers have more disadvantages for every advantage than other classes do, and I get told I'm talking nonsense...

 

Watch it. A developer might see this, and decide to allow MM snipers to move around with cover still up. Then people would complain about how OP'd it is, and the only way to play a viable sniper is to spec MM... Sniper would be the new marauder.

Watch it. A developer might see this, and decide to allow MM snipers to move around with cover still up. Then people would complain about how OP'd it is, and the only way to play a viable sniper is to spec MM... Sniper would be the new marauder.

 

That's not going to happen, and I'm hardly an advocate for Snipers becoming OP.

Like I said, cover has good benefits, but already balanced by trading mobility for those benefits - don't mess with cover.

But I'd like to see the MM tree lean towards better armour penetration and possibly getting some tech/internal to replace some of the ranged/energy.

Maybe even a +5m to tech range placed high enough to not play nice with leth/eng hybrids.

That's not going to happen, and I'm hardly an advocate for Snipers becoming OP.

Like I said, cover has good benefits, but already balanced by trading mobility for those benefits - don't mess with cover.

But I'd like to see the MM tree lean towards better armour penetration and possibly getting some tech/internal to replace some of the ranged/energy.

Maybe even a +5m to tech range placed high enough to not play nice with leth/eng hybrids.

 

i agree, getting some tech/internal damage would be nice... as well as the +5 m range for everything...

 

i'd also like our main defensive abilities (shield probe and evasion) to be better than slightly useless... ie prevent/reduce damage from tech and force attacks...

 

we don't have stealth, we don't have an immunity bubble... it's time our defense gets upped to be on par with others since we obviously aren't head over heals #1 in damage...

Marksman isn't all that bad in PVP. While Lethality would often break 600k damage for me, Marksman is a full 100k lower, so we're looking at 500k. I'm toying with Marks because it's more agile at target switching. I play with a premade on voice chat, and when we're facing another premade, we need to coordinate our burst DPS.

 

With 3 DPS on voice chat you will be burning down / swapping targets very fast: in 2-3 casts, we can take a player low enough that he either dies or panics and blows all defensive cooldowns and screams for a guard. Once that happens we could immediately target swap to something else, depending.

 

While lethality does more damage than Marksmanship if you get your full rotation off, the reality is that you won't, in higher level games. Time-To-Kill is about 3 GCDs if you have 3 players coordinated against a single target - a Lethality player wouldn't have got to cast his Cull yet. By about 3 GCDs you'll have heals and a guard landing on that focused player, so he's got to either be dead at that point, or it's time to target swap.

 

I find that Lethality simply cannot keep up with the fast pace of the game at higher levels. Corrosive Grenade holds you back, having a 12 second cooldown - with focused DPS you either kill targets in seconds or you've already swapped out. There will be large portions of time where you don't have this available. Also the windup is too slow: you need to cast grenade+dart+wb before you can unleash your cull. Premades will be looking to take out vulnerable targets - and the window for doing so is very small. The leader will call out (hit Star now) - coz he sees Star has over-extended, isn't topped off (at 2/3 hp coz the healers are currently healing the target your team is pressuring), doesn't currently have a guard, and he knows that all 3 DPS have ready access to him - so you just go Ambush+Followthrough+Takedown and your job is done, then your leader instantly calls a new target and you can get right to DPSing again.

 

Lethality just can't do that. Your CG and SoS will be on cooldown and the leader will be asking for DPS on the target and you have to say, sorry, waiting for cooldowns. Or he'll yell at you saying I NEEDED BURST DAMAGE 5 SECONDS AGO and you say, it takes me 5 seconds to DOT my target up before I can cull. Then why didn't you use Ambush and SoS? If you were using that, why aren't you playing Marksman in the first place?

 

I have similar issues with Engineering, where Interrogation Probe and Explosive Probe have even longer cooldowns, making target switching not viable. Also, +30% crit damage on SoS is far better than Electrified Railgun, at good gear levels (>42% crit)

 

At least in my experience, Marksman has enough benefits to consider using in organized PVP.

At least in my experience, Marksman has enough benefits to consider using in organized PVP.

 

Organizated PvP will send some steath class to unplug you, for example. And then your burst is like zero cos MMs are like butter. Besides, combo weapon damage+ranged is terrible in PvP and MMs gets very limited cos it. Eng and Leth are by far better for PvP. Much more mobility, tech attacks etc.

 

The best specc in terms of teamwork is Saboteur (Eng) cos Incendiary Grenade/Plasma Probe.

i hope that the changes will be:

first stream line it, like what they did with the maras/sents.

second some more tech damage and if we have to loose some damage volume for better damage "quality" so be it.

third fix some almost useless abilities (shield probe etc.)

last i hope that they wont mess up the character and "skill requirement" of the class

Organizated PvP will send some steath class to unplug you, for example. And then your burst is like zero cos MMs are like butter. Besides, combo weapon damage+ranged is terrible in PvP and MMs gets very limited cos it. Eng and Leth are by far better for PvP. Much more mobility, tech attacks etc.

 

The best specc in terms of teamwork is Saboteur (Eng) cos Incendiary Grenade/Plasma Probe.

 

This is just false. It sounds like you haven't played an MM sniper before, if anything MM is the hardest spec to kill. I'd much rather face stealthers as MM rather than Lethality.

 

1. Ballistic Dampers isn't something that Lethality can pick up. That gives you better than heavy armor mitigation: you can facetank through 3 Grav Round / Tracers with impunity then reset cover for another 3 charges. Lethality gets my vote as the squishiest spec.

 

2. We aren't DOT based like Eng or Lethality so our CC (cover pulse + legshot) is always available for 10 seconds of continuous CC on a melee class), and then a Flashbang if you need another 8 seconsd. Eng or Leth don't have the flexibility to switch from DPSing a target to CCing - once you've put a DOT on them you're committed to fight to the death, something which you might well lose against a Shadow / Scoundrel.

 

3. Entrench gives 60% protection against AOE, there are many spells classified as AOE which players use as direct damage, for example, Force Smash (which easily crits over 5k) can be well mitigated by Entrench. Similar to Death Field which can crit in the region of 4k. You can have a nearly 50% uptime on Entrench with the MM talent.

 

Look I'm not denying our damage gets mitigated. I repeat - look at it from an organized PVP point of view: if some enemy player is at low hp, he'll get getting a heal inside of 3 seconds. Marks can do far more damage in 3 seconds than Lethality, who has to load up the target with DOTs first. Lethality and Eng is a PuG friendly build.

I think BW planned to have MM as the best PvE spec, while lethality should be the best PvP spe. Not sure about eng, maybe an average build for both. Currently, the best DPS spe, for both PVE and PVP is based on DOT. It is quite unusual for a "sniper". Also makes the MM spe far less useful. Leth is better for raiding/bosses and PvP DPS, while MM is better for trashs mobs, solo questing and burst.

I suppose they will make MM more valuable for PVE, maybe increasing DPS.

This is just false. It sounds like you haven't played an MM sniper before, if anything MM is the hardest spec to kill. I'd much rather face stealthers as MM rather than Lethality.

 

1. Ballistic Dampers isn't something that Lethality can pick up. That gives you better than heavy armor mitigation: you can facetank through 3 Grav Round / Tracers with impunity then reset cover for another 3 charges. Lethality gets my vote as the squishiest spec.

 

2. We aren't DOT based like Eng or Lethality so our CC (cover pulse + legshot) is always available for 10 seconds of continuous CC on a melee class), and then a Flashbang if you need another 8 seconsd. Eng or Leth don't have the flexibility to switch from DPSing a target to CCing - once you've put a DOT on them you're committed to fight to the death, something which you might well lose against a Shadow / Scoundrel.

 

3. Entrench gives 60% protection against AOE, there are many spells classified as AOE which players use as direct damage, for example, Force Smash (which easily crits over 5k) can be well mitigated by Entrench. Similar to Death Field which can crit in the region of 4k. You can have a nearly 50% uptime on Entrench with the MM talent.

 

Look I'm not denying our damage gets mitigated. I repeat - look at it from an organized PVP point of view: if some enemy player is at low hp, he'll get getting a heal inside of 3 seconds. Marks can do far more damage in 3 seconds than Lethality, who has to load up the target with DOTs first. Lethality and Eng is a PuG friendly build.

 

I respect your opinion and I agree with many of your points about MM being able to burst down classes under heal. I am not saying it's unmanageable, but it feels in certain situations not powerful enough. On my server there are two dominating pvp guilds on both sides. Reps sometimes can have a team of 4-5 troopers. I don't know about you, but I feel like i need work a lot more for my kills with MM when i am facing so many heavy armors. And I am talking about healer troopers, gunnery commandos, vanguards tanks and assault vanguards. If we get two lethality snipers in the WZ, we can make a huuuge difference for the game outcome.

 

With MM, i only feeling that sometimes i can burst down a target under heals, and they have a little less time to react. Engineering is somewhere in between in terms of DPSing the heavy armors. The kicker here is the Engineering survivability. From my experience: engi EP+SoS > Snipe + FT + Ambush damage wise.

 

The ballistic dampeners 30% damage is high unstable as it can either absorb a grav round or just some random weak dot.

 

Being able to root somebody for the full duration is not a life saver. What are you going to do during those 5 seconds of root against the marauder? Run away? If you drop your cover -> he will just leap to you. Your extra shot is not going to kill him.

 

Oh and what i really don't like about MM is how weak Series of Shots actually is. Against any heavy armor class it is pure useless crap. Rapid fire does not bring anything special for pvp. The only saving grace of Series of shots in MM tree is an alacrity build that can lower SoS to 1,6s cast time (405 alacrity relic, target acquired, sniper volley proc and 4% alacrity skill). With these you can cast all 3 SoS in 4.8 secs total.

 

Outside of that SoS is just a filler attack used to proc the 1.5 sec ambush.

This is just false. It sounds like you haven't played an MM sniper before, if anything MM is the hardest spec to kill. I'd much rather face stealthers as MM rather than Lethality.

 

1. Ballistic Dampers isn't something that Lethality can pick up. That gives you better than heavy armor mitigation: you can facetank through 3 Grav Round / Tracers with impunity then reset cover for another 3 charges. Lethality gets my vote as the squishiest spec.

 

2. We aren't DOT based like Eng or Lethality so our CC (cover pulse + legshot) is always available for 10 seconds of continuous CC on a melee class), and then a Flashbang if you need another 8 seconsd. Eng or Leth don't have the flexibility to switch from DPSing a target to CCing - once you've put a DOT on them you're committed to fight to the death, something which you might well lose against a Shadow / Scoundrel.

 

3. Entrench gives 60% protection against AOE, there are many spells classified as AOE which players use as direct damage, for example, Force Smash (which easily crits over 5k) can be well mitigated by Entrench. Similar to Death Field which can crit in the region of 4k. You can have a nearly 50% uptime on Entrench with the MM talent.

 

Look I'm not denying our damage gets mitigated. I repeat - look at it from an organized PVP point of view: if some enemy player is at low hp, he'll get getting a heal inside of 3 seconds. Marks can do far more damage in 3 seconds than Lethality, who has to load up the target with DOTs first. Lethality and Eng is a PuG friendly build.

 

Even when you put some valid arguments, in practice MM sucks in PVP. Ballistic dumpers is pretty unstable and even, any specc can pick it if wanted.

 

At the same time you can be healed, your enemy too. Entrench is nice but you cant move during those 20 secs, melees can destroy you easily. The aoe reduction is more for PvE encounters, not PvP. Smart enemies see your entrench easily and wont waste some skills/CC´s when you have put on.

 

Eng and Leth got some issues with the CC´s cos the dots, thats true but overall they got better resources cos dont need to be in cover for the best shots and many of them are tech, not weapon damage+ranged.

 

I played as my GS everything and tested a lot of things, many speccs. Right now, i think Sab (Eng) is the best one, you lack the MM burst or the 1vs1 Leth but even being the hardest one to play, gives the highest performance in warzones.

 

Anyway, Sniper/GS need some work yet, not only MM. Even when puts very nice damage on the table, needs better ways to defend himself. Cover is nice cos avoiding leaps etc but not enough. Shields are crap and is very vulnerable to dots as well. i just hope 1.3 brings some interesting changes cos needs badly.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Nyaara

At the same time you can be healed, your enemy too. Entrench is nice but you cant move during those 20 secs, melees can destroy you easily. The aoe reduction is more for PvE encounters, not PvP. Smart enemies see your entrench easily and wont waste some skills/CC´s when you have put on.

entrench, ironically, doesn't work against most of the pve mobs knockbacks. that probably really needs to get looked into.

entrench, ironically, doesn't work against most of the pve mobs knockbacks. that probably really needs to get looked into.

 

It doesn't, I always assumed this was a bug.

i'd wish they'd make followthrough a tech attack. then change recoil control to maybe lowering the cooldown by another second or two. keep the cooldown somewhere so our rotation wouldn't be snipe/FT/ambush/FT/snipe/FT/takedown. and if they do that, also add followthrough to the rapid fire talent so you could either use SoS or FT.

 

maybe make diversion an aoe move as well. it is a big smoking canister. you'd think that smoke would hit everyone near that target.

 

also, cover screen needs some work. just ranged defense? usually when i'm leaving cover, i'm knocked out of it by some melee, or i've just leg shot a melee and moving to a new spot to reset snap shot and ballistic dampers. maybe add melee defense to it. or better yet, force/tech resistance.

 

if none of those went into effect, i'd add somewhere high up where shatter shot would reduce the target's armor by an additional %. maybe up to 60% (heck, PT's get this in tier 1 of advanced prototype). somewhere high up like imperial assassin, or even rapid fire.

Maybe an improved leg shot could be the answer we are looking at?

the only sniper changes I really want, since I dont PvP, in increased range (so we have longer range than any other class), lets say, 40 meters? I dont care if its a MM talent or something (if it is a talent, make it MM), but I dont feel like a sniper, if a sorcerer can hit the same distance that I do or a bounty hunter for that matter.

Watch it. A developer might see this, and decide to allow MM snipers to move around with cover still up. Then people would complain about how OP'd it is, and the only way to play a viable sniper is to spec MM... Sniper would be the new marauder.

 

Even if a MM sniper could move around with cover up a marauder would still be a ton better, more mobility, more damage, more surviveability.

hopefully about a 10% increase in burst damage or maybe like 20% increased crit damage for mm abilities (snipe, ambush, takedown, followthrough, sos)

 

Bottom line is the tree needs more damage if it is supposed to be a turret ...