Now, this probably seems like a fairly dull, mundane topic based on the title...but it's late and I couldn't think up anything better >.>

My question isn't in regards to why the Jedi philosophy explains why emotional attachments are looked down upon, it's in regards to historical context. We see a dramatic change in Jedi attitudes between the Tales of the Jedi series, where we have characters like Nomi Sunrider not only being allowed to marry and love, but also to be trained at a very late age as well.

Jump forward to the Knights of the Old Republic, where we have the more recognizable, prequel trilogy-style training practices of the Order - no entering training after a certain age (with Revan's retraining an obvious exception), love and marriage forbidden and so forth.

I consider myself pretty well versed in Star Wars lore, but unfortunately I don't know much about the KOTOR comics and other material, so I was hoping someone could help fill in the blanks for me here, from an in-universe perspective - why did the Jedi suddenly become so hardline against relationships and attachments? What was their justfication for this drastic change in their philosophy, and how popular was it when it was implemented?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Marriage while doing some search about the topic i found this useful link..i knew luke got married, and i think the veto on weddings comes from the habit of jedi to live in enclaves and such monastic way that allowing romance would only result in a: multiple sex relationships and b: multiple dark side falls and deaths.

plus: ppl sometimes do bad things to their partner..imagine that with force choke and stuff flying all over the room pushed by force waves.

Revan happened.

I'm not kidding.

Every time something drastic such as a prominent figure like the fall of Revan happens, there is a fear based reaction in the Jedi Order that makes them scale back the scope of everything to a more emotionless state and far more restrictive view of things in order to clamp down on the odds of said event never happening again.

After the Jedi Civil War and the Exile of Meetra Surik. The Jedi Order regressed into a more restrictive state to prevent another fall on a scale of Darth Revan. This was advocated by the Jedi Council Member Master Atris. The very Atris of KoTOR II who took Meetra Surik's leave from the order to follow Revan as a personal betrayal and pushed for the restrictive measures because she took it so badly.

The Jedi Order of Episode One was holding to the same restrictive state as laid out by the Ruusian Reformations as a direct result of the New Sith Wars and the Brotherhood of Darkness. Both results of the Fourth Great Schism where once again, a prominent Jedi Master was allowed to fall and rebuild the Sith Order.

This is not an uncommon event. As time progresses people feel they can be trusted to live as they see fit until someone betrays that trust. Should the Old Guard or in this case, the Jedi Order, be victorious in the Revolution, they will see fit to return to a way of life that prevented such things from happening. A return to a safe past. Tradition that has worked.

This will hold until standards slowly slip and once again the Sith threaten the Galaxy. It's a never ending cycle of Birth, Decay, Revolt, Destruction, and Renewal. The one cycle that continues as long as the story of Star Wars is told.

I'm of the opinion that this ban was in some way influenced by Sith infiltrators into the Jedi order. In many ways, the "Love" ban led to a great deal of turmoil, and the loss of many Jedi.

We know the Sith have infiltrated the Jedi order in disguise before (see BTC 103 entry here: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/galactic-history), and we know the Sith have nothing to lose, and everything to gain from the move. Less Jedi children being born as a result of Jedi parentage, thus breaking up many of the powerful Force bloodlines. More Padawans, and Jedi, falling to the Dark Side as a result of believing their love is wrong, and deciding to go all out with Dark Side passions.

I think the New Jedi Order shows that love, and marriage, were not wrong. Even Anakin's love for Padme wasn't wrong; it was his rejection of "There is no Death, there is only The Force" that caused him to follow Palpatine.

I know, it's pretty crazy, but you have to admit the move is very Sith-like, and gains them a lot in the long term. All they had to do was push for restrictions when the time was right; Revan's betrayal, et al. Definitely Wild Mass Guessing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WildMassGuessing (DO NOT GO THERE!), but to me, it explains a lot of this crazy aspect of the Old Republic's Jedi.

Revan happened.

 

I'm not kidding.

 

Every time something drastic such as a prominent figure like the fall of Revan happens, there is a fear based reaction in the Jedi Order that makes them scale back the scope of everything to a more emotionless state and far more restrictive view of things in order to clamp down on the odds of said event never happening again.

 

After the Jedi Civil War and the Exile of Meetra Surik. The Jedi Order regressed into a more restrictive state to prevent another fall on a scale of Darth Revan. This was advocated by the Jedi Council Member Master Atris. The very Atris of KoTOR II who took Meetra Surik's leave from the order to follow Revan as a personal betrayal and pushed for the restrictive measures because she took it so badly.

 

The Jedi Order of Episode One was holding to the same restrictive state as laid out by the Ruusian Reformations as a direct result of the New Sith Wars and the Brotherhood of Darkness. Both results of the Fourth Great Schism where once again, a prominent Jedi Master was allowed to fall and rebuild the Sith Order.

 

This is not an uncommon event. As time progresses people feel they can be trusted to live as they see fit until someone betrays that trust. Should the Old Guard or in this case, the Jedi Order, be victorious in the Revolution, they will see fit to return to a way of life that prevented such things from happening. A return to a safe past. Tradition that has worked.

 

This will hold until standards slowly slip and once again the Sith threaten the Galaxy. It's a never ending cycle of Birth, Decay, Revolt, Destruction, and Renewal. The one cycle that continues as long as the story of Star Wars is told.

The problem with this theory is that forbidding relationships was in place by the time of KOTOR, with dialogue options with Bastila pretty clearly stating the Order's stance. This means these rules were in place before the event of the KOTOR games, not as a result of them. So saying that the Jedi became more conservative after the Jedi Civil War doesn't take into account the changes that were already occuring within the Order, and the mandates that had already been established.

I'm of the opinion that this ban was in some way influenced by Sith infiltrators into the Jedi order. In many ways, the "Love" ban led to a great deal of turmoil, and the loss of many Jedi.

 

We know the Sith have infiltrated the Jedi order in disguise before (see BTC 103 entry here: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/galactic-history), and we know the Sith have nothing to lose, and everything to gain from the move. Less Jedi children being born as a result of Jedi parentage, thus breaking up many of the powerful Force bloodlines. More Padawans, and Jedi, falling to the Dark Side as a result of believing their love is wrong, and deciding to go all out with Dark Side passions.

 

I think the New Jedi Order shows that love, and marriage, were not wrong. Even Anakin's love for Padme wasn't wrong; it was his rejection of "There is no Death, there is only The Force" that caused him to follow Palpatine.

 

I know, it's pretty crazy, but you have to admit the move is very Sith-like, and gains them a lot in the long term. All they had to do was push for restrictions when the time was right; Revan's betrayal, et al. Definitely Wild Mass Guessing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WildMassGuessing (DO NOT GO THERE!), but to me, it explains a lot of this crazy aspect of the Old Republic's Jedi.

Granted, that's an interesting theory, but is there any canon evidence that would support this?

Two words: Theron Shan.

I point you to my first response - it was already forbidden in the Order, so...that's clearly not the whole story. We're missing a piece of the puzzle here.

The struggle between love and duty is one of Anakin Skywalker's major conflicts in the Prequel Trilogy. Newer Star Wars fans may not realize, however, that Attack of the Clones was the first time the idea of Jedi celibacy ever came up. In the Expanded Universe, Jedi before and after the Prequel Trilogy had no problem with falling in love, getting married, and having family ties outside of the Jedi Order.

With the Expanded Universe in mind, the question becomes less "why can't Jedi marry?" and more "why did the Jedi taboo against marriage develop, and why did it later disappear?"

Early Jedi Practices and the Expanded Universe

The Jedi Order was founded in 25,783 BBY, and their philosophies -- such as the distinction between the light side and dark side of the Force -- developed over the next few centuries. They served as the guardians of the Republic since its foundation. It wasn't until around 4,000 BBY, however, that the Jedi began to forbid marriage and attachment.

Practically speaking, this is due to the structure of the Expanded Universe. Before the Prequels came out, EU writers had to avoid the Prequel Era so as to avoid contradictions with later material. For the most part, the EU covered events in between the Original Trilogy movies and after Return of the Jedi. In order to explore new time periods and characters, works like Knights of the Old Republic were set 4,000 to 5,000 years before A New Hope and featured Jedi marrying with no problem. When the prohibition of marriage was revealed in Episode II, it only made sense in the EU if it started after 4,000 BBY.

In-universe, the new rule prohibiting marriage is justified by changes in the structure of the Jedi Council and Jedi Order. Before 4,000 BBY, the Jedi Order was made up of loosely affiliated local groups. After the Great Sith War, they became a unified organization under the Jedi High Council, which began to reinterpret the Jedi Code. Among the new regulations were the prohibition of marriage and the idea that Jedi must begin their training as very young children.

Dangers of Attachment

The reorganized Jedi Order focused on eliminating attachment because of how it can lead to the dark side of the Force. The problem is not so much falling in love, but the fear of losing the object of one's affection. This plays out in Revenge of the Sith, in which Anakin turns to the dark side to prevent Padmé's death. The loss of a loved one can also cause a Jedi to turn to the dark side in anger -- as happens to Anakin ater his mother's death.

The Jedi of the Prequel Era are not only forbidden to have romantic attachments; they are forbidden to have familial ones. Force-sensitive children are taken from their families at a young age and brought up in the Jedi Temple, without much or any connection with their biological relatives. They are loyal and devoted to the Jedi Order because they have no other family.

Is Attachment Inherently Bad?

The idea of attachment being dangerous is not new in the Prequels. It goes all the way back to The Empire Strikes Back, when Yoda warns Luke not to rush into danger just to save his friends. It happens again in Return of the Jedi, when Darth Vader manipulates Luke into attacking by threatening to harm Leia.

And yet, Luke trained as an older student and got married -- and allows such things in the New Jedi Order -- without the problems the Jedi worry about in the Prequels. The Jedi Order is simply smaller and more disjointed, much like the Jedi before 4,000 BBY.

It seems that prohibiting marriage and other attachment is not a matter of necessity, but a matter if practicality. The Jedi of the Prequel Trilogy prohibit attachment not because it always leads to the dark side, but to encourage devotion to the Order. Perhaps it also avoids creating Jedi dynasties that might divide the order. Since Luke started his New Jedi Order with older Force-sensitives who had already developed attachments, there was no practical way to forbid them; he simply worked with what he had.

From this point of view, one might conclude that Anakin's fall was not the fault of his attachment, but the fault of the Jedi Order. If the Jedi of the Prequels were more familiar with the needs of older trainees, and if they taught their students to deal with attachment wisely rather than forbidding it outright, Anakin may have been able to let Padmé go without fear.

http://scifi.about.com/od/starwarsglossaryandfaq/a/Star-Wars-FAQ_Why-Cant-Jedi-Marry.htm

This is just an article I found.

My opinion on this has been noted too many times so I am not bringing that into play this time. (lol)

An Article a friend of mine referred me to:

When the previews for Episode II: Attack of the Clones stated that Jedi cannot have relationships, many fans were understandably confused. Star Wars had been around for 25 years at that point, and no one had ever heard of such a thing. Jedi in the Expanded Universe had no problems with marriage and family. Even Ki-Adi-Mundi, a Jedi in the Prequel trilogy, was married in the Expanded Universe.

Suddenly forbidding romance in the Jedi Order seemed like merely a cheap way to add drama to the storyline. Anakin and Padmé can't just have a romance; it must be a secret, angsty romance. As the story progressed, however, another explanation came to light. Perhaps the strict structure and rules of the Prequel-era Jedi Order are not a good thing after all. Perhaps, by not allowing Anakin to love, they are ultimately responsible for his fall to the dark side.

Forbidden Attachments

The Jedi Order forbids romance. This is not an inherently bad thing. Everyone knows how finding a boyfriend or girlfriend in college ate up all your study time -- imagine if you weren't just studying how to pass English Lit and then promptly forget all the books you read, but how to save the universe from evil. Like a religious order that requires its members to remain celibate, the Jedi Order saw romance, marriage, and family as a distraction from one's studies and duties.

But there's an important distinction: members of a celibate religious order are generally able to renounce their order and walk away at any time. Technically, Jedi can leave the Order, and some have. But the Jedi Order doesn't just forbid romance; it forbids all attachment. The Jedi take Force-sensitive children from their homes and families and raise them in a temple, training them from a very young age. The Jedi Order is the only family they know.

Jedi who are exceptions to this rule will find it easier to walk away. Count Dooku, for example, was a member of a noble family. He knew his heritage; he knew that he would have a life ready for him outside the Jedi Order. How many Jedi could say that? Most Jedi cannot make a meaningful decision to stay in the Jedi Order or leave. They are brought in when they are too young to consent and have every outside resource taken away from them.

Anakin & Padmé

Anakin Skywalker is an unusual case. He did not being his Jedi training until the age of 9; "too old," according to Yoda. The Jedi Council made an exception because of his extraordinary potential: he had the highest recorded midi-chlorian count and was possibly even the Chosen One prophesied to bring balance to the Force. Anakin did have a connection to the Jedi Order, but it seems to be more an attachment to his master than a loyalty to the Order as a whole.

Could Anakin have left the Jedi Order? Probably. He may not have had anything to return to, with his past as a slave on Tatooine, but he had talents outside of being a Jedi, as well as a relationship with a woman of great status and influence.

But what would have happened then? Anakin would still be volatile, acting impulsively on his emotions. Outside of the Jedi Order, however, he would have had no one to even try to hold him back. He probably would have become even more vulnerable to manipulation by Chancellor Palpatine. And he certainly would have still given anything to try and prevent Padmé's death.

What-Ifs

What if the Jedi Order had allowed attachment? It certainly worked for the Jedi before and after. But the Jedi Order we see in the Prequels is one that has become lazy. Instead of looking at what is best for each individual Jedi student -- as masters could do for their apprentices before the Order became so centralized -- they came to rely too heavily on rules and regulations.

The Jedi Order is right to believe that attachment can be dangerous. This idea is present even in the Original Trilogy; in Return of the Jedi, for example, Luke's thoughts of his sister betray her to Darth Vader, causing Luke to attack in anger. But feeling attachment, whether one acts on it or not, is a natural impulse. Some Jedi may not feel a need for attachment, and others simply may not wish to form attachments; but those who do should be taught how to handle them.

The primary motivation for banning attachments, it seems, is the worry that fear of loss will drive Jedi to the dark side. This is precisely what happened to Anakin; unable to accept the idea that Padmé might die, he was willing to do evil in order to save her. But what if, instead of banning attachment, the Jedi Order taught its students that loss and grief were a normal part of life, and how to deal with that in the context of being a Jedi?

The Jedi Council already knew that Anakin was vulnerable. Obi-Wan Kenobi almost certainly knew that Anakin was having a relationship, but developed a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, too uncomfortable to discuss the situation and perhaps offer actual help. If the Jedi Order had allowed attachments, this young Jedi in dire need of emotional support could have come to them with his problems. The Jedi Order should have seen the weaknesses in their rules and realized that a breakdown like Anakin's was ultimately inevitable

http://scifi.about.com/od/starwars/a/A-Jedi-Shall-Not-Know-Love.ht

As the Jedi Order grew and became more organized around a central power structure, it likely became necessary for more rigid standards and practices. It's not that all attachment or emotion was inherently dangerous, it's just that once you've got a certain number of Jedi in the Order, it's easier to just lay down whatever rules you can to prevent whatever problems might arise. Rather than bother reviewing things on a case-by-case basis and risk making a mistake, ban the potentially dangerous thing altogether.

It's likely the same as Jedi and positive emotions. Can positive emotions make someone a better Jedi? Yes. Do they always lead to the dark side? No. Can they lead to the dark side? Yes. But instead of properly teaching understanding and caution, it's probably easier to just outright forbid.

There's a lot of parallels with the Republic itself. Lots of members. Lots of unique individuals. But everyone is subject to the same rules and regulations, sometimes unnecessarily restrictive or burdensome. In the early days, there likely weren't as many Jedi or at least less 'mishaps' wrought from Jedi turning to the dark side from emotional attachment. In the later days, Jedi likely had a greater understanding of the Force and their relationship with it, and therefore relaxed restrictions pertaining to attachment. Between then, we have the Old Republic Jedi and all their heavy-handedness.

Less likely an issue of stricter ideals, and more likely an attempt to maintain control as the Order grew.

There is no emotion. There is peace

First line of the Jedi code. Love is emotion, and they believe in no emotion. Emotion may cloud their judgement.

As an example of how love can harm your judgement, there's the possibility that you may prioritize the person you love over everyone else. Look at Anakin, he killed who knows how many Jedi, including children, to achieve the dark side powers he believed could save Padme.

There's actually an example of this in The Old Republic. But ironically, it happens in the Trooper's story, and not a Jedi's story.

I wouldn't say that all love would do that. Honestly, if someone I loved ever did that I would walk away from that person as that person is not the person I fell in love with and I believe most would do the same.

Anakin had more problems that "professing" he loved Padme. He "claims" to have loved her yet he turns and does something he knows good and well she wouldn't condone or accept. Is that love? or is that more looking for power?

Then he is given a choice to turn from the darkside and what does he do? He rejects it and then acts out of jealousy and chokes her. Love? I don't think so.

True love doesn't act that way. Love makes you stronger but it sure shouldn't make you act like someone you are not.

You can claim all day long Anakin loved Padme but in my book it wasn't a true love. It was a possessive love which is totally something different.

As far as putting someone above something else, everyone seems to forget one thing a Jedi is not a walking robot. Even if a Jedi wasn't in love you tell me he or she is going to ignore a friend in trouble? I seriously doubt that.

We need to quit thinking of the Jedi as non feeling humans. The problem is the council was unsure how to train them correctly on the matters of the heart. Their best idea, was oh let's just tell them that they can't love, it will make it easier for us. That way we wouldn't have to take each jedi and work with their personalities . We just tell them it not something they should do and then bury our heads in the sand when it happens.

They should work with people instead of hiding away from emotions.

Okay I said enough.

I believe the Jedi Academy sourcebook had a sidebar that mentioned the prohibition on marriage and attachment waxes and wanes with the passing of the years- Sometimes you get the near ironclad prohibition from the prequel trilogy, sometimes you get the New Jedi Order's Laissez-faire style, and sometimes you get the TOR era's middle ground (heavily regulated, but not strictly banned). Ultimately, the problem arises in that love and marriage bring with them a lot of turbulent emotions, and that's very difficult to manage when the dark side is a literal slippery slope. It's quite possible to manage your attachments (many jedi, including Obi-wan and Luke did), and sometimes jedi realize the relationship isn't healthy for them (Satele broke off her relationship with Jace Malcolm and avoided a relationship with Taavus because she felt the relationship would bring out some of the more negative qualities in both parties). And then you have the Annakins. People who, for one reason or another, have trouble with attachment (a depressingly large number of these people exist in real life. Or in countless "romance" novels). The marriage ban is an attempt to appear non-judgemental (Avoids criticisms when one couple is granted permission to marry but another isn't) while trying to prevent the unhealthy attachments from forming.

Of course, prohibiting marriage brings its own problems because the inevitable rule-breakers don't have anywhere to turn for help in managing issues, which leads to things like Annakin or those padawans on Tython who really need to see a counselor.

Now, this probably seems like a fairly dull, mundane topic based on the title...but it's late and I couldn't think up anything better >.>

 

My question isn't in regards to why the Jedi philosophy explains why emotional attachments are looked down upon, it's in regards to historical context. We see a dramatic change in Jedi attitudes between the Tales of the Jedi series, where we have characters like Nomi Sunrider not only being allowed to marry and love, but also to be trained at a very late age as well.

 

Jump forward to the Knights of the Old Republic, where we have the more recognizable, prequel trilogy-style training practices of the Order - no entering training after a certain age (with Revan's retraining an obvious exception), love and marriage forbidden and so forth.

 

I consider myself pretty well versed in Star Wars lore, but unfortunately I don't know much about the KOTOR comics and other material, so I was hoping someone could help fill in the blanks for me here, from an in-universe perspective - why did the Jedi suddenly become so hardline against relationships and attachments? What was their justfication for this drastic change in their philosophy, and how popular was it when it was implemented?

Because, when Lucas was writing the prequel trilogy, he modeled the Jedi Order on the monastic orders we have, but didnt really think about the consequences. The Jedi are just as self destructive and crippled as the Sith are, only they are less flamboyant about it.

If they were going to be intelligent about it, emotion and feeling would be encouraged. They would want their members to understand themselves, to come to terms with and *control* their emotions rather than trying to suppress what they feel. It would be OK to get mad, or sad, or even ecstatically happy, because these would be well adjusted people instead of emotional cripples dealing with the feelings.

How many times in the "lore" do you have some kid who never really grew up and has no real self-control freak out and go evil because they simply never learned how to handle themselves? Derp.

I believe the Jedi Academy sourcebook had a sidebar that mentioned the prohibition on marriage and attachment waxes and wanes with the passing of the years- Sometimes you get the near ironclad prohibition from the prequel trilogy, sometimes you get the New Jedi Order's Laissez-faire style, and sometimes you get the TOR era's middle ground (heavily regulated, but not strictly banned). Ultimately, the problem arises in that love and marriage bring with them a lot of turbulent emotions, and that's very difficult to manage when the dark side is a literal slippery slope. It's quite possible to manage your attachments (many jedi, including Obi-wan and Luke did), and sometimes jedi realize the relationship isn't healthy for them (Satele broke off her relationship with Jace Malcolm and avoided a relationship with Tavus because she felt the relationship would bring out some of the more negative qualities in both parties). And then you have the Anakins. People who, for one reason or another, have trouble with attachment (a depressingly large number of these people exist in real life. Or in countless "romance" novels). The marriage ban is an attempt to appear non-judgmental (Avoids criticisms when one couple is granted permission to marry but another isn't) while trying to prevent the unhealthy attachments from forming.

 

Of course, prohibiting marriage brings its own problems because the inevitable rule-breakers don't have anywhere to turn for help in managing issues, which leads to things like Anakin or those padawans on Tython who really need to see a counselor.

And the sick joke about it all? Throughout ALL the waxing and waning periods of the Jedi Order, the Jedi do not ban SEX. Ever. Discourage it, certainly, but they can't ban it! And while sex more often than not leads to attachment (that's what she said...) in a very literal sense, it's also true that some can divorce sex from connotations such AS love. But it's also a biological thing that we organics do and they can't really do sweet sweet FA about it. Heck even in the Clone Wars, though not at all used in this sense, the Master/Padawan relationship is explained as this when confronted with situations that the Master might lose the Apprentice:

"I will mourn [her], but I will celebrate [her] as well." Luminara Unduli to Anakin Skywalker about Bariss Offee.

The Jedi clearly take this approach to sex: Celebrate what you have in the moment.

Yeah, not very intelligent to ban one thing but NOT ban the other... No wonder the attachment rule is always the first to get thrown out whenever the Jedi Order re-structures from a purge: You can't even keep it in your pants, guys!

Now, this probably seems like a fairly dull, mundane topic based on the title...but it's late and I couldn't think up anything better >.>

 

My question isn't in regards to why the Jedi philosophy explains why emotional attachments are looked down upon, it's in regards to historical context. We see a dramatic change in Jedi attitudes between the Tales of the Jedi series, where we have characters like Nomi Sunrider not only being allowed to marry and love, but also to be trained at a very late age as well.

 

Jump forward to the Knights of the Old Republic, where we have the more recognizable, prequel trilogy-style training practices of the Order - no entering training after a certain age (with Revan's retraining an obvious exception), love and marriage forbidden and so forth.

 

I consider myself pretty well versed in Star Wars lore, but unfortunately I don't know much about the KOTOR comics and other material, so I was hoping someone could help fill in the blanks for me here, from an in-universe perspective - why did the Jedi suddenly become so hardline against relationships and attachments? What was their justfication for this drastic change in their philosophy, and how popular was it when it was implemented?

Basically Luke was not a fully trained Jedi, so he could never pass it right. He allowed emotions into the Jedi Teachings, also allowed older ppl to be trained in the Force since he needed students.

BUT THEN again, every era is different you know. Jedi got on the right track later on after Cole Skywalker and Cade. At that era for example Sith changed a lot, with the ONE SITH thing.

Now, this probably seems like a fairly dull, mundane topic based on the title...but it's late and I couldn't think up anything better >.>

 

My question isn't in regards to why the Jedi philosophy explains why emotional attachments are looked down upon, it's in regards to historical context. We see a dramatic change in Jedi attitudes between the Tales of the Jedi series, where we have characters like Nomi Sunrider not only being allowed to marry and love, but also to be trained at a very late age as well.

 

Jump forward to the Knights of the Old Republic, where we have the more recognizable, prequel trilogy-style training practices of the Order - no entering training after a certain age (with Revan's retraining an obvious exception), love and marriage forbidden and so forth.

 

I consider myself pretty well versed in Star Wars lore, but unfortunately I don't know much about the KOTOR comics and other material, so I was hoping someone could help fill in the blanks for me here, from an in-universe perspective - why did the Jedi suddenly become so hardline against relationships and attachments? What was their justfication for this drastic change in their philosophy, and how popular was it when it was implemented?

Unfortunately, attachments are directly forbidden by the Jedi code. I know you didn't want to discuss that aspect of it, but its difficult not to given the subject we are now talking about.

The Jedi Vergere believed that Marriage(and by extension, Love)needed to be outlawed in the order primarily so as not to create dynasties of those strong in the Force. If familial dynasties were allowed to form, infighting could develop in the Order itself, and it would collapse as it had done in the Sith Order for centuries prior.

Something people tend to forget regarding this.

First: Yes it was frowned up but when you actually tell someone they can't do something, what is the one thing a lot of people will do? A lot of times they will do the exact opposite of what you tell them.

Second: Can you banned love? No it is an emotion and there is no way you can ban that.

Third: Saying they banned attachments is not entirely true. Masters and Padawans formed attachments to each other. Yes it is different but it is still an attachment which could still create a problem.

Saying love is the only way someone can fall to the darkside is a bit short-sighted if you asked me. A padawan could fall to the darkside if they saw their master killed as well or even hurt.

So saying attachments should be banned was a bit short-sighted. What they should have done is looked at each person individually and worked with them. If a person was having a problem and they knew they could go to someone on the council with the situation without this "We told you that is not allowed" and be able to confide and find someone willing to listen and to advise them how to handle their emotions, the order might have been better off.

I am sorry telling someone who is already in love that what they are feeling is banned or not allowed is not a way to handle it. They are failing in what they should be doing and that is helping the person handle being in love and yes being a jedi.

My opinion for what it is worth.

Granted, that's an interesting theory, but is there any canon evidence that would support this?

 

I point you to my first response - it was already forbidden in the Order, so...that's clearly not the whole story. We're missing a piece of the puzzle here.

Yeah, I don't have any proof, I'm just kinda Fan Wanking here (don't click that if you value your time/sanity). Definitely not claiming it's canon, but it seems like a reasonable explanation for a pretty illogical rule.

Like one of the above posters mentioned, Jedi are tempted to fall to the Dark Side when they lose their Masters (and vice versa), an attachment forced on them by the Jedi Order, but they still follow the Master/Padawan dictate. Jedi fall to the Dark Side after seeing combat, but they still engage in battle. And a LOT of Jedi fall because they think that failing ONCE is a complete failure, so they should just embrace it (see Juhani).

The one rule that would provide them with powerful Jedi dynasties (see the Skywalkers) is against the rules. I see a disconnect there, and the most likely source of the disconnect is the ancient enemy of the Order.

Out-of-universe-Lucas reason? DRAMA.

In-universe: I mostly see Odan-Urr being the major catalyst for this policy given his rewrite of the Jedi Code. Granted this makes little sense with what the Consular learns from the holocrons on Tython, but again: Tales of the Jedi was written before SWTOR. Retcon issues abound.

It's led to the mindset that a Jedi must be detached from anything that might tempt him/her/it. It's a good theory, with the best intentions. But in practice it fails to teach a person (or even an organization) how to deal with inner turmoil (which the revised code says doesn't, or more accurately SHOULDN'T exist). Thus, when the individual feels anything remotely resembling a negative emotion (and they're going to, I mean come on. Nobody's perfect) they beat themselves up and refuse to acknowledge the validity of what they feel.

In real life terms, I find many parallels to the debate over homosexual marriage/discrimination. There are two main reasons anyone in their right mind would bring forward as being against homosexuality as a morally acceptable concept. 1: Religious based (teachings not based on personal experience), or 2: The fear of sexual exploitation.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I buy either one of these reasons. But the well-deserved reputation of Catholic priests has lead to the later case, which I compare strongly to Jedi such as Anikan who for whatever reason are not emotionally stable enough to form healthy relationships. Such incidents in the minds of the policy makers indicate that there is a major problem happening in their organization, which leads to increased restrictions on activity that puts individuals at risk of "deviant" behavior.

And as the years pass and the incidents become less prevalent it is assumed that it is these restrictive measures that prevented "falls to the dark side" (real-world rape of young boys). Thus these measures are now and forever seen as necessary for the good of all, and become religious-or, more accurately, faith-based reasons to restrict said behavior (or what is SEEN as a behavior).

This is a flawed premise both for real-world homosexuality, and for Jedi emotional attachment, because they are seen by the policy makers as "behavior," not uncontrollable states of being. To clarify: Neither homosexuality nor Jedi romantic love is a choice. The deviant behaviors that might (that's very important) result from these states of being are. In no way do I condone homosexual (or heterosexual, for that mater) rape or Jedi giving in to the dark side by way of romantic passion. However, both in real life and in the Star Wars universe the restrictions imposed have severe and detrimental costs to the individual who experiences these states of being.

Case in point: Self-loathing. In the real world, this leads to alienation, isolation, and (in the worst case) suicide. In the Star Wars mythos, this (ironically) leads to an increased risk of falling to the Dark Side either out of rejection of the restrictions or a rejection of the self.

Love, attachment, and illogical behavior/decisions are something every person goes through in their life. The same is true of Jedi. This is not a bad thing. The core of Jedi teaching is not logic, but compassion. Kindness, charity, and mercy are some of the most illogical concepts, yet they form the foundation of how a Jedi is expected to act. But of course "There is no Emotion, There is Logic."

It is this false dichotomy and double standard that, in my personal opinion, has lead to most if not every Jedi who has fallen and/or given in to the Darkside. There is no support structure to fall back on, no way to learn how to properly understand and deal with the emotions, attachments, and yes: LOVE that a Jedi will inevitably feel. They are only ever told: "It is Forbidden."

If there is any person or group that feels I have attacked their beliefs or otherwise been insulted by what I have written, I apologize. As I have stated, this is only my personal opinion based on my own experiences and what I know of Star Wars lore.

I am, and forever will be a "Grey Jedi." And if you ask me the Jedi Order is no place for children!

Out-of-universe-Lucas reason? DRAMA.

 

In-universe: I mostly see Odan-Urr being the major catalyst for this policy given his rewrite of the Jedi Code. Granted this makes little sense with what the Consular learns from the holocrons on Tython, but again: Tales of the Jedi was written before SWTOR. Retcon issues abound.

 

It's led to the mindset that a Jedi must be detached from anything that might tempt him/her/it. It's a good theory, with the best intentions. But in practice it fails to teach a person (or even an organization) how to deal with inner turmoil (which the revised code says doesn't, or more accurately SHOULDN'T exist). Thus, when the individual feels anything remotely resembling a negative emotion (and they're going to, I mean come on. Nobody's perfect) they beat themselves up and refuse to acknowledge the validity of what they feel.

 

In real life terms, I find many parallels to the debate over homosexual marriage/discrimination. There are two main reasons anyone in their right mind would bring forward as being against homosexuality as a morally acceptable concept. 1: Religious based (teachings not based on personal experience), or 2: The fear of sexual exploitation.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I buy either one of these reasons. But the well-deserved reputation of Catholic priests has lead to the later case, which I compare strongly to Jedi such as Anikan who for whatever reason are not emotionally stable enough to form healthy relationships. Such incidents in the minds of the policy makers indicate that there is a major problem happening in their organization, which leads to increased restrictions on activity that puts individuals at risk of "deviant" behavior.

 

And as the years pass and the incidents become less prevalent it is assumed that it is these restrictive measures that prevented "falls to the dark side" (real-world rape of young boys). Thus these measures are now and forever seen as necessary for the good of all, and become religious-or, more accurately, faith-based reasons to restrict said behavior (or what is SEEN as a behavior).

 

This is a flawed premise both for real-world homosexuality, and for Jedi emotional attachment, because they are seen by the policy makers as "behavior," not uncontrollable states of being. To clarify: Neither homosexuality nor Jedi romantic love is a choice. The deviant behaviors that might (that's very important) result from these states of being are. In no way do I condone homosexual (or heterosexual, for that mater) rape or Jedi giving in to the dark side by way of romantic passion. However, both in real life and in the Star Wars universe the restrictions imposed have severe and detrimental costs to the individual who experiences these states of being.

 

Case in point: Self-loathing. In the real world, this leads to alienation, isolation, and (in the worst case) suicide. In the Star Wars mythos, this (ironically) leads to an increased risk of falling to the Dark Side either out of rejection of the restrictions or a rejection of the self.

 

Love, attachment, and illogical behavior/decisions are something every person goes through in their life. The same is true of Jedi. This is not a bad thing. The core of Jedi teaching is not logic, but compassion. Kindness, charity, and mercy are some of the most illogical concepts, yet they form the foundation of how a Jedi is expected to act. But of course "There is no Emotion, There is Logic."

 

It is this false dichotomy and double standard that, in my personal opinion, has lead to most if not every Jedi who has fallen and/or given in to the Darkside. There is no support structure to fall back on, no way to learn how to properly understand and deal with the emotions, attachments, and yes: LOVE that a Jedi will inevitably feel. They are only ever told: "It is Forbidden."

 

If there is any person or group that feels I have attacked their beliefs or otherwise been insulted by what I have written, I apologize. As I have stated, this is only my personal opinion based on my own experiences and what I know of Star Wars lore.

 

I am, and forever will be a "Grey Jedi." And if you ask me the Jedi Order is no place for children!

I wouldn't consider you a Gray Jedi. I'd consider you a New Jedi more in line with Luke's school of Jedi training. During this era (and even shown in Legacy of the Force when he loses a family member to the dark side and another through death) the Jedi have by and large thrown out the law on marriage and attachments and to those that did not, they created a system of mentorship and camaraderie in order to prevent even their strongest members LIKE Luke fall to the Dark Side. Heck even Jacen only fell because he believed it would save the Jedi Order as a whole and he didn't once think or act out of fear, even for the safety of his own daughter. When Mara Jade died, Luke had the entire and full support of the Jedi Order, especially his son, to allow him to come back to the light after he brutally massacred (falsely) Lumiya in a blind rage and nearly took Jacen with her.

I love how people claim to be "Gray" Jedi so they can use their emotions and the cool dark side powers that come with it as if it justifies their means, even though if they were given sufficient training, very few would truly be "Gray". Any and every nerd is a rebel who bristles and lashes out against the world, but when given access to their true potential and greater purpose, they tend to bury those emotions in favor of what they gain from the future. Those naturally "**** you I will kill you all!" impulses that come with being oppressed become increasingly distant when they are no longer there, and then you seek to bring other people out of that darkness. That's not being Gray, that's a Jedi straight out. Just because you have emotions and know how to deal with them, doesn't suddenly make a Gray. A true gray, who does both good and bad, while a prominent belief in the real world, is actually very rare. We tend to lean more heavy on the spectrum of morality than straddle them both equally.

While a true "light" and a true "dark" are even more rare and the world is gray, there is still plenty of black and plenty of white out there in order to create that Gray, and in a universe where the lifeforce of the universe itself can heavily influence an individual's actions and give it more weight than in the real world, it would tend to give perspective as well. Well that and the novel you just wrote doesn't come off as something a "Gray" Jedi would do, but more a New one who sees the flaws of the old but also the best, and tries to learn from them. After all, "There is no Ignorance; There is Knowledge."

I point you to my first response - it was already forbidden in the Order, so...that's clearly not the whole story. We're missing a piece of the puzzle here.

I would like to point out that, during the course of the Jedi Consular's story, you meet a Jedi Master by the name of Duras Fain on Nar Shaddaa, who, in turn, has a DAUGHTER, Laranna Fain. There is no pretence at all during this, nobody points out that Jedi are not supposed to have a family or attachments. They are there and it seems like the most normal thing in the world. Nobody even considers that Duras Fain's activities on Nar Shaddaa (gathering the refugees there to fight against the Hutt Cartel) might be the result of the dark side since he already broke the vow of non-attachment and had a relationship and a daughter, who is ALSO in the Jedi Order.

Then there is that stuff the female Jedi Consular can say when asked by Felix Iresso if she will get a reprimand by the Council if they find out about them. She says "If the Jedi is trustworthy and shows good judgement, the Council tends to be lenient." That would mean that, under certain circumstances, the Order is ok with stuff like this. That in turn sort of contrasts with the other Jedi romances, in particular the female Jedi Knight who at times seems super afraid her relationship with Doc might be exposed to the Council (plus its the only romance where advancing it and marrying gives Dark Side points).

There is no emotion. There is peace

 

First line of the Jedi code. Love is emotion, and they believe in no emotion. Emotion may cloud their judgement.

I believe this is actually a misinterpretation of the Jedi Code. Of course there is emotion, every living being has it, it's what makes them different from droids. What the Jedi Code means by this line is that emotion should not be the cause of making a decision. You stay calm, focussed, and make a rational decision instead of lashing out based on emotions that might cloud your judgement. "Compassion" for instance is an emotion that could arguably be one of the pillars of the Jedi Order. If emotion was dead to them, would they actually want to help people?

There is also this scene with Ashara Zavros and Master Ryen on Taris, where she explains the Jedi Code thusly, when asked what the line "There is no passion. There is serenity." means and she ties it to other parts of the Code:

"It means that a Jedi must be prepared to think calmly even in intense situations. Passion is a tool of the dark side. "There is no emotion. There is peace." It also means Jedi should temper their intuition with wisdom. "There is no ignorance. There is knowledge.""