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The biggest Issue I have with playing non force users is.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
The biggest Issue I have with playing non force users is.

MadDutchman's Avatar


MadDutchman
07.15.2019 , 09:18 PM | #11
Just how much power the Force grants a specific person fluctuates considerably throughout the many forms of media, however one thing we can say is that the vast majority of force users are really not that much more powerful than NFU.

Think of it like the physical differences between men and women. Men have a base physical advantage in terms of strength, but it's hardly insurmountable in the general.

Where things get a bit weird is when we have FU demi-gods like Vitiate/Valkorian, Palpatine, Vader, Galen Marek etc. These characters however are exceptional (and often the result of bad story telling)
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IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
07.15.2019 , 10:14 PM | #12
With Order 66 they also had Darth Vader leading the charge at the temple, and he didn't just take out the younglings, so there's that, too. The Jedi weren't just defeated by the clones, but they were severely outnumbered by them. After Order 66 there were Force-sensitive Inquisitors tracking down the remaining Jedi so again, Force user vs. Force user.

I do think that it's a stretch to think that a non-Force user could take out Revan, Darth Malgus and Vaylin. During the fight with Revan in SoR I would think that Satele Shan and Darth Marr would have been leading that charge instead of the smuggler or agent. I think Vaylin and Arcann would have flattened a non-Force user in about two seconds, realistically, especially if the Commander had refused Valkorion's power. The fight at the end of KOTET I will give a pass, since it all happens in the COmmander's head and they have the holocron.

But on the other hand the non-Force users are scripted as being extremely adept with the tricks of their trades, resourceful and cunning, and thus I think they'd be able to take down at least some Sith and Jedi.

Celise's Avatar


Celise
07.16.2019 , 12:27 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by MadDutchman View Post
Think of it like the physical differences between men and women. Men have a base physical advantage in terms of strength, but it's hardly insurmountable in the general.
Don't underestimate the strength of a young woman with a similar height and build, or even the shorter women. Yes men have a physical advantage if it comes to the upper fitness limits and women are generally lighter than men as well, but one exceptionally trained and very fit young woman could easily be more than a match for several well trained men with excellent physical fitness as well.

You'll know what that means if you head down to a local gym and fitness club that also have boxing. You see one young woman fully ripped, worked out and see her sparring with a ripped male counterpart in the ring, watch her get a right hook in and the guy goes down without so much as a sound.. well aside from the earthquake as he lands on the ground in a heap .

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
07.16.2019 , 12:42 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Celise View Post
Don't underestimate the strength of a young woman with a similar height and build, or even the shorter women. Yes men have a physical advantage if it comes to the upper fitness limits and women are generally lighter than men as well, but one exceptionally trained and very fit young woman could easily be more than a match for several well trained men with excellent physical fitness as well.

You'll know what that means if you head down to a local gym and fitness club that also have boxing. You see one young woman fully ripped, worked out and see her sparring with a ripped male counterpart in the ring, watch her get a right hook in and the guy goes down without so much as a sound.. well aside from the earthquake as he lands on the ground in a heap .
Reread the text you quoted, especially the last bit, "but it's hardlly insurmountable in the general."

On average, men are bigger and stronger, but that can be overcome with sufficient training, whether you mean skill training or physical-strength training.
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Severith's Avatar


Severith
07.16.2019 , 01:52 AM | #15
Remember when Jango Fett casually killed that jedi during the battle of Geonosis?

Peppridge farm remembers.

More seriously: The Force is a part of all life. Jedi and Sith training focus it in very particualr ways, but not the only ways. Smuggler's luck goes up and down like a rollercoaster. A sniper's concentration makes it seem as if time has stopped for a moment. Etc, etc.

In the old tabletop RPG rules from the late 80's and 90's, all Star Wars characters had the force except droids. It just manifested in different ways. Jedi and Sith trained to use it much more overtly and in a much larger variety of ways, but while Jedi were meditating their lives away, "non-force" users were dealing with real life, and that comes with a bunch of skills and talents Jedi would most likely never learn or experiance. You don't have to learn how to manipulate or convince people of anything if you can just wave your hand in front of them. You don't have to learn how to take cover from blaster bolts when you can deflect them with a lightsaber.

I don't think the OP gives regular joes enough credit. In a galaxy with numerous force users, regular people would adapt and find tactics to beat them, or at least level the playing field.

Celise's Avatar


Celise
07.16.2019 , 03:10 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by SteveTheCynic View Post
Reread the text you quoted, especially the last bit, "but it's hardlly insurmountable in the general."

On average, men are bigger and stronger, but that can be overcome with sufficient training, whether you mean skill training or physical-strength training.
What did i suddenly become blind or something when responding to your previous comment?
I was fully aware of what i was writing and what you mentioned "it's hardly insurmountable" which mean there is enough doubt in what you are saying where i responded.

Storm-Cutter's Avatar


Storm-Cutter
07.16.2019 , 04:50 AM | #17
Didn't Jango Fett get the better of Obi-Wan Kenobi for most of their fight?

Couldn't Aurra Sing have shot Annakin during the Podrace?
Several times over, the Droid army almost crushed the Clones and their Jedi commanders.

Not every Jedi or sith is as powerful as the heroes in the movies and anime. - Some are still padawan's/ apprentices and their rapid rises to power are usually because of their deeds, not their martial prowess ( In their SWTOR stories that is. )

Besides, it's an MMO - You have to suspend some disbelief, otherwise there isn't much point playing.
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casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
07.16.2019 , 09:19 PM | #18
Simple solution then: Don't play them if you have a problem with them.
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McBaal's Avatar


McBaal
07.17.2019 , 12:09 PM | #19
When comparing FU and non FU you should also remember their particular ideology. Jedi always try to find a non lethal way to overcome their enemies wich severely cripples them in a fight. Also their blind trust in the force guiding them dumbs them down. Anakin for example was special in the way that he also used his brain and didn't just trust the force. Asoka mentions this when she talks to Ezra about her old master.
The Sith are so emotional that they abandon rational thinking in a fight. In case a fight turns out difficult they act like complete addicts, becoming more and more emotional. While this might give them a short time boost it weakens their ability to fight with a clear mindset even more They start fighting like rabit dogs instead of an experienced wolf. There is no such thing like a Sith in full control of himself during a fight.

Non FU however can be quite pragmatic and unhindered by their orders ideology or masters teachings. Cad Bane managed to withstand and defeat several Jedi masters, including Anakin Skywalker AND Obi Wan. Jango didn't just kill a single Jedi, he was an infamous Jedi killer (even without real mandalorian armor) If a master (mandalorian) Bounty hunter, wearing actual mandalorian armor (made of mandalorian steel) faces off against a Jedi master my bets are on the Mandalorian.
The Smuggler is a tricky case. It's all about luck and refering to the old Kenobi there is no such thing as luck. You can indeed argue that the force is guiding the smuggler, even if he or she isn't force sensitive (or at least not a trained force user).
The trooper isn't just some stupid grunt, as commander of Havoc squad he/she is the best of the best. The republics special forces are trained and equipped to fight against Sith Warriors, especially since the Jedis casualties and political troubles forced them to leave Coruscant after the war. You might want to give them some credit and skills to trick their force sensitive enemies.
The main problem is the agent. Considering the Siths usual paranoia and tendency for betrayal, I highly doubt that the Sith empire would be willing to train their soldiers and agents in the killing of force sensitives, it'd seem way too risky imo. On the other hand intelligence business is always a delicate matter and who knows what additional kind of upgrades a cipher agent is actually getting...

Tsillah's Avatar


Tsillah
07.17.2019 , 01:05 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by AlaricSevGirl View Post
Completely disagree. Remember Order 66 where clones took out most of the jedi order? Also, everyone has the force in some capacity even if they don't believe it or use a light saber.
Then again that doesn't really equate to a fight with someone like Vaylin or a Dark Council member. When there are enough numbers then sure a force user can be overwhelmed but in this game we're talking about people who can suck dry entire planets and such. It is rather hard to believe that a single trooper or bounty hunter can manage that.

In the end it's pitting Darth Vader against Boba Fett and thinking it's a fair fight or the Emperor versus Han Solo and expecting that Han can take on the Emperor. That's the sort of confrontations that this game does have though and it really doesn't make sense a lot of the time.

Personally, I get that for game purposes they can't have one dominate over the other but yeah, this is the problem particularly in KotFE/ET which really was written for Jedi Knights and others will just have to pretend to some degree that it makes sense. I also didn't think it made sense for my Inquisitors that they took the title of Commander. That was also an incredible letdown. So they really could do their best a bit more on things like that.
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