Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Things that are Dead should stay DEAD!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Things that are Dead should stay DEAD!

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
07.16.2019 , 07:57 AM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by Tsillah View Post
The simple truth is that BioWare has been relying on gimmick writing like this for a while now and it was already getting old. Malgus is one thing cause we already knew that he was knocked off the side at the end of the original fight and this was a clear indication he'd be back at some point. So in this particular case I don't have an issue with it but overall I wish they would stop using this. I see it as lazy, uninspired writing for the most part.

Mass Effect Andromeda was also an example of how they take death so very casually. I mean your main character dies 2 or 3 times and at some point it's like "who cares?". That exactly is the point. Now when I kill a powerful enemy, it means little to me because chances are they'll bring him/her back at some point.

At the same time they also kill off characters in terrible ways, undeserved often. Point in case would be Vaylin who in KotFE was just annoying and one-dimensional, but then in KotET gets an actual personality and just when you think she's a cool character it's over and they confirm that's it for her.

Problem is there that they wasted potential of a character they just started developing and now if they ever do decided to bring her back it'll be against their own words and it'll likely not make much sense either.

I mean, does anyone really believe we've seen the last of Vitiate? I'm not so sure.

When death becomes a gimmick, it becomes meaningless. And when death becomes meaningless, our choices become less meaningful as well because the consequences are changeable.

I really hope they stay away from the usual gimmicks and do some more interesting writing for 6.0. A lot of people say that BioWare was always great at writing good stories but actually they were great at writing good, compelling characters. Used to be. I hope they get better at it again. I have more faith in Austin for that right now than Edmonton anyway.

I think the anger that came when all existing companions were removed at the start of 4.0 tells you that people really got attached to a lot of those companions but the continued demand for companion returns over the years it took to get them back also tells me that new companions didn't make such an impact. But, I have to say that Ossus does make me feel hopeful for 6.0 because there are some characters there already that interest me.

I just hope they focus more on decent/good stories with great characters in them because it's the characters that convince you and bring you in, more than the story itself. When a character dies I want to be sad about it. That doesn't happen much in BioWare games these days... because it's gotten too contrived. So fingers crossed.

I really didn't expect to give this game another chance because the list of things that needed to change just got too long and well, they are actually doing so many things that are on my list that I had to admit I was wrong. But if they make the characters interesting and not just cheap tricks as their main writing tools, that'd really be an amazing thing.
Unless there is more BioWare is hiding, 6.0 seems....brief from a story point. Not a ton of character development happening. More like a setup ala Forged Alliances. That said, there are elements to it that show the writing is greatly improved and that they are fully ready to give the overall story class specific flavor again, which can go a long way in the future...

That's about all I can say, and honestly, I could be completely wrong. Bioware is playing this one close to the vest for Onslaught...

Tsillah's Avatar


Tsillah
07.16.2019 , 08:08 AM | #132
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Unless there is more BioWare is hiding, 6.0 seems....brief from a story point. Not a ton of character development happening. More like a setup ala Forged Alliances. That said, there are elements to it that show the writing is greatly improved and that they are fully ready to give the overall story class specific flavor again, which can go a long way in the future...

That's about all I can say, and honestly, I could be completely wrong. Bioware is playing this one close to the vest for Onslaught...
Yeah I'm not sure if they plan on doing a lot of story or just keep releasing things bit by bit as they have been doing. Overall the quality has gone up and that's good. I just hope they use explorable planets more than just FPs. I find the FPs less interesting to revisit and it feels constraining because it's just the one path to follow and the one story mission to follow. I do still like the vanilla style best because it adds more than just story. Ossus is a lot better in that respect than Umbara, Copero and Nathema. Umbara is just a bugfest but the other two I quite like, I just don't like revisiting them much because it's that FP format. Though I will say that the new decorations in all of those places are a big plus for me as well but I really would've loved Copero and Nathema to be explorable planets with dailies and other activities as well and not just the FP. That format of being able to go to a planet, do some quests and have some banter in chat, just works better for me personally I guess.
Referral link for some extras: http://www.swtor.com/r/jMVTyB

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
07.16.2019 , 09:05 AM | #133
Quote: Originally Posted by Tsillah View Post
Yeah I'm not sure if they plan on doing a lot of story or just keep releasing things bit by bit as they have been doing. Overall the quality has gone up and that's good. I just hope they use explorable planets more than just FPs. I find the FPs less interesting to revisit and it feels constraining because it's just the one path to follow and the one story mission to follow. I do still like the vanilla style best because it adds more than just story. Ossus is a lot better in that respect than Umbara, Copero and Nathema. Umbara is just a bugfest but the other two I quite like, I just don't like revisiting them much because it's that FP format. Though I will say that the new decorations in all of those places are a big plus for me as well but I really would've loved Copero and Nathema to be explorable planets with dailies and other activities as well and not just the FP. That format of being able to go to a planet, do some quests and have some banter in chat, just works better for me personally I guess.
I agree. A do once in a while is ok, but needing to complete a battery of fps being used as a story stand in like forged alliances can be a slog. Oasis was superior in that regard.

Rebamcfan's Avatar


Rebamcfan
07.16.2019 , 09:07 AM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
He married a Twi'lek, which at the time would have been a scandal. So I wouldn't go so far as to claim that he didn't have any genuine pro-alien sentiments, beyond using them for the Empire. Of course he also murdered said wife, but because he felt the attachment was a weakness.
Sorry, just thought that this needed a clarification: Malgus did not marry Eleena Daru. She was his lover, not a wife, whom he eventually killed since she was a weakness on him that people could use against him.
"To defeat an enemy you must know them. Not simply their battle tactics, but their history, philosophy, arts." -Grand Admiral Thrawn
http://www.swtor.com/r/3d6ZQg If you liked what I posted, feel free to use my Referral link. ^_^

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
07.16.2019 , 09:53 AM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by Rebamcfan View Post
Sorry, just thought that this needed a clarification: Malgus did not marry Eleena Daru. She was his lover, not a wife, whom he eventually killed since she was a weakness on him that people could use against him.
Regardless, one gets the feeling it wasn't a shallow relationship.

aeterno's Avatar


aeterno
07.16.2019 , 04:51 PM | #136
The issue with BW or more specifically SWTOR writing is the one dimensional light/dark kill/imprison option and pandering to players that want to be able to kill every character with more than 2 spoken lines, which makes every introduced character essentially a throwaway.

A couple content cycles of this "philosophy" has left a narrative wasteland. I don't think the vast majority of players can even name the current faction leaders. Contrast that to WoW and TOR as the supposed story focused game falls woefully short.

Bringing back Malgus, one of the few characters that ever stuck around enough to resonate with players, is an attempt to paper over the cracks. I sure hope being forced to scrap the bottom of the barrel with Malgus, Gnost Dural and the mutated NPC lady from the starting zone the writers have realised something has to change. They need to build consistent narrative with characters that stick around long enough so the players can build a connection with them. Alas I'm more inclined to believe they'll cave to people asking over and over and rub out Lana next. There's always C2-N2 to carry the narrative torch I guess.

Shayddow's Avatar


Shayddow
07.16.2019 , 06:41 PM | #137
I've got to disagree with some of the posters here. As having played for a long time and having read the forums back in the day, there were many who were disappointed when Malgus was originally killed off. Many at the time expressed the wish that their characters could have joined him, in reforming the Empire. (My LS sith among them). Thus, at least one of my characters was very happy to have him return and to fight at his side, rather than in opposition to him.


(He did not become a saboteur, he stayed allied to the Empire, although he is light-side, he still follows the ways of the Sith (as interpreted by Kaleth-Ur). He is one to change the empire from within rather than try to destroy it, though.
Shekkel,70 Nimrossa, 70 |Ebon Hawk
Shassella, 70 Barzella, 70 | Begeran
Adonnah, 70 Kydosh, 70 |Harbinger
Tashha, 70 Svgon, 70

Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
07.16.2019 , 08:17 PM | #138
Quote: Originally Posted by aeterno View Post
The issue with BW or more specifically SWTOR writing is the one dimensional light/dark kill/imprison option and pandering to players that want to be able to kill every character with more than 2 spoken lines, which makes every introduced character essentially a throwaway.

A couple content cycles of this "philosophy" has left a narrative wasteland. I don't think the vast majority of players can even name the current faction leaders. Contrast that to WoW and TOR as the supposed story focused game falls woefully short.

Bringing back Malgus, one of the few characters that ever stuck around enough to resonate with players, is an attempt to paper over the cracks. I sure hope being forced to scrap the bottom of the barrel with Malgus, Gnost Dural and the mutated NPC lady from the starting zone the writers have realised something has to change. They need to build consistent narrative with characters that stick around long enough so the players can build a connection with them. Alas I'm more inclined to believe they'll cave to people asking over and over and rub out Lana next. There's always C2-N2 to carry the narrative torch I guess.
I think I get what you mean. This game has never shied away from letting you take down big bad enemies, but if it happens too much and too easily, it can dilute things to the point that it's difficult to believe anyone is a real threat.

So far, Vitiate is the only character I can think of who has a lot of buildup. And he pulled that off by being super mega colossally powerful bad guy. I would like to see a little more slow-burn stuff. It makes it all the more gratifying when you reach the conclusion of the conflict. Some of the class stories have enemies that are sort of in the realm of slow-burn. Though due to the "on to the next enemy" nature of it, they can be a bit forgettable. And their send-offs tend to be kind of abrupt, like... oh that was it. Ok. You won.
Clicky referral link for freebies, read how referral works.

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
07.16.2019 , 08:26 PM | #139
Quote: Originally Posted by aeterno View Post
The issue with BW or more specifically SWTOR writing is the one dimensional light/dark kill/imprison option and pandering to players that want to be able to kill every character with more than 2 spoken lines, which makes every introduced character essentially a throwaway.

A couple content cycles of this "philosophy" has left a narrative wasteland. I don't think the vast majority of players can even name the current faction leaders. Contrast that to WoW and TOR as the supposed story focused game falls woefully short.

Bringing back Malgus, one of the few characters that ever stuck around enough to resonate with players, is an attempt to paper over the cracks. I sure hope being forced to scrap the bottom of the barrel with Malgus, Gnost Dural and the mutated NPC lady from the starting zone the writers have realised something has to change. They need to build consistent narrative with characters that stick around long enough so the players can build a connection with them. Alas I'm more inclined to believe they'll cave to people asking over and over and rub out Lana next. There's always C2-N2 to carry the narrative torch I guess.
Agreed. Death has lost any true impact in the game because they've caved so much to people screaming for kill options and have killed off almost every character of interest. I completely expect at this point that anyone they introduce or elevate to a position of authority is going to be killed off. Malora and Gnost-Dural didn't even make it through one story segment without getting killed. I'm sorry to see Jakarro and his droid back for 6.0 because I'm sure they'll find a reason to knock them off. Anyone else they introduce for 6.0, likewise.

It means that after a while one stops emotionally investing in characters because you already know Bioware's going to yank them away at the first opportunity. And if they don't, people will howl that they're "sick of the character" until Bioware caves and kills them off.

Likewise, the "wait, he's not dead!" trope has been run into the ground. Does it mitigate the constant bloodbath if the character comes back later? Not really. There used to be a joke among Marvel comics readers that there have only been like two characters that Marvel has ever definitively killed, because almost everyone comes back. It hasn't gotten quite that bad with Bioware, but almost. Vaylin, Senya, SCORPIO, Revan, Theron, Darth Marr, Vitiate? At this point I'd not be at all surprised to see Bioware shoehorn any or all of them back in.

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
07.17.2019 , 05:24 AM | #140
Quote: Originally Posted by Rolodome View Post
I think I get what you mean. This game has never shied away from letting you take down big bad enemies, but if it happens too much and too easily, it can dilute things to the point that it's difficult to believe anyone is a real threat.

So far, Vitiate is the only character I can think of who has a lot of buildup. And he pulled that off by being super mega colossally powerful bad guy. I would like to see a little more slow-burn stuff. It makes it all the more gratifying when you reach the conclusion of the conflict. Some of the class stories have enemies that are sort of in the realm of slow-burn. Though due to the "on to the next enemy" nature of it, they can be a bit forgettable. And their send-offs tend to be kind of abrupt, like... oh that was it. Ok. You won.
Yup.

Agreed.

Right now, there are only two characters that are still alive on the Empire side that can fill the "emperor" role right now, already have a go in Malgus. Jadus is the only one left who would have the immediate gravitas to pull off a Slow Burn big bad. The Empire needs stability. He's the perfect choice.