Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Bring back self-heals

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Bring back self-heals

YaanaOhtar's Avatar


YaanaOhtar
12.20.2013 , 08:56 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
False. The big nerf to Shadow tanks took place because of their relative balance in PvE.

http://www.swtor.com/blog/class-chan...ame-update-1.3
And you believe them because ? before 1.3 shadow was at best during pvp, A Lot pvp cry about shadow tank, they could easily take 2 person and won.
Pve ? mehh, they're nothing better than others.

alexzk's Avatar


alexzk
12.20.2013 , 09:35 AM | #22
Now my jugg (61 mods) is better to play pvp/fp hms than shadow (65-67 pvp mods). When jugg will get set pvp bonuses she will have self healz like old shadow had, 100k per wz ( I see guardians easy have 80k selfheals).

So yes, please return self-heals back.

Overall full tank is useless now for pvp at least. Something like 23-21-2 or 31-11-4 works much better.

Full tank is not solo player any more, hybrids may do something having occasional heals.

P.S. You should also account that shields are 30% cap now in armor. 40% was always vital to do good job by shadow tank, at old time you could easy feel difference between 38 and 40%% in shield rate. Now it is like 32% with best armor.
There is no ignorance - there is knowledge.

SkybladeDarkstar's Avatar


SkybladeDarkstar
12.24.2013 , 10:32 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
I am never acting like an Argument is not there. I defuted every single one. Link me one i didn't.

What you don't understand is, that spike damage in pvp is a lot higher then in pve. Two dps deals more sustained damage then an operation boss. Not even mentioning their possible spike damage.

There's a reason dipstik calculated with the tripple spike damage for pvp (comparing to pve operations).

The only sections were it was a clear nerf were dailies.
For hm flashpoints and sm operations i am still not 100% sure, according to numbers it seems to be about the same. I did never say something different.

Your argument is just the same i always say, it supports my point of view.
I understand that spike damage is higher in PVP, I just don't give a damn. I don't play PVP, and I don't want to see myself being crippled in PVE, which is what this change has resulted in. I've been running dailies and Heroics regularly, both before and after the patch, and if you think that there is not a clear and obvious difference in how the Shadow performs in those situations, you're full of bull.

I've typically been running with a partner DPS, and using one healer and one DPS companion for most of my fights. I've now been forced into both of us running healers, and I'm still walking out of half of the fights nearly dead. This is with the exact same gear setup as I had pre-patch.

Whatever idiot thinks that 4% damage reduction is at all comparable to the self heals, or that it comes close to pushing us up to any of the other tanking classes (none of which have had the survival problems that my Shadow now has) should be fired.

And this is assuming that you can get the 4%, but (spoiler alert) it doesn't work properly. I can't even count the number of times that I have run a full channel and walked out with only 3 stacks because it happens to just skip applying a new one sometimes. I have, in fact, counted at least 4 times that I've come out of a full channel with only 2 stacks (oh, and by the way, having to wait an extra second just to ensure that you're not going to cut off that final stack application screws with the rotation and effectiveness of the Shadow tank in any situation, PVE or PVP), and once that I've only gotten a single stack, because the ability just doesn't frelling work properly.

Solution: Harnessed Shadows at 3 stacks heals you when you cast Telekinetic Throw at a NON-PLAYER CHARACTER. Ta da. Problem solved, and the whiny PVP morons can stop ruining my class for PVE (or I could just tell you to suck it up and live with it, which is the response I get to any complaint I happen to make about the PVP system causing me grief).

Quote:
The only sections were it was a clear nerf were dailies.
No, it's a clear nerf in any PVE content, whether it be dailies, Flashpoints, or Operations. Sure, in a Flashpoint, Operation, or Heroic, you have someone else backing you up and putting heals on you. So what? You still don't have near the self-survivability that you did before, and they are still going to have to pump out far more heals, fixing their rotation more and providing a larger drain on their resources.

But let's take what you said at face value (and ignore the obvious idiocy of anyone who something thinks that the game operates differently in a daily than it does in any other PVE situation). It's a nerf to dailies. Ok, that alone is enough reason to bring it back. Dailies are the single most commonly run PVE content in the game. If you aren't a PVPer, you are going to be running dailies. A lot. Congratulations, you just hosed us one of the most important gear grinds, time sinks, and overall gameplay features. The fun and engagement of the dailies is gone (which is why there are so many people ************ about it), because we're running around completely crippled, especially compared to what we used to be.

Bring back the self-heals, and if you really want to make the PVPers happy, make them PVE-only. PVP has its own unique systems already (Expertise, anyone?), so I don't see why there can't be PVE-only systems. Because they are obviously completely different gameplay systems at heart. But stop screwing Shadow tanks (who are tanks, designed to frelling survive fights, especially in PVE content), just because the PVPers are whining.

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
12.24.2013 , 10:55 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by SkybladeDarkstar View Post
I understand that spike damage is higher in PVP, I just don't give a damn. I don't play PVP, and I don't want to see myself being crippled in PVE, which is what this change has resulted in. I've been running dailies and Heroics regularly, both before and after the patch, and if you think that there is not a clear and obvious difference in how the Shadow performs in those situations, you're full of bull.

I've typically been running with a partner DPS, and using one healer and one DPS companion for most of my fights. I've now been forced into both of us running healers, and I'm still walking out of half of the fights nearly dead. This is with the exact same gear setup as I had pre-patch.

Whatever idiot thinks that 4% damage reduction is at all comparable to the self heals, or that it comes close to pushing us up to any of the other tanking classes (none of which have had the survival problems that my Shadow now has) should be fired.

And this is assuming that you can get the 4%, but (spoiler alert) it doesn't work properly. I can't even count the number of times that I have run a full channel and walked out with only 3 stacks because it happens to just skip applying a new one sometimes. I have, in fact, counted at least 4 times that I've come out of a full channel with only 2 stacks (oh, and by the way, having to wait an extra second just to ensure that you're not going to cut off that final stack application screws with the rotation and effectiveness of the Shadow tank in any situation, PVE or PVP), and once that I've only gotten a single stack, because the ability just doesn't frelling work properly.

Solution: Harnessed Shadows at 3 stacks heals you when you cast Telekinetic Throw at a NON-PLAYER CHARACTER. Ta da. Problem solved, and the whiny PVP morons can stop ruining my class for PVE (or I could just tell you to suck it up and live with it, which is the response I get to any complaint I happen to make about the PVP system causing me grief).



No, it's a clear nerf in any PVE content, whether it be dailies, Flashpoints, or Operations. Sure, in a Flashpoint, Operation, or Heroic, you have someone else backing you up and putting heals on you. So what? You still don't have near the self-survivability that you did before, and they are still going to have to pump out far more heals, fixing their rotation more and providing a larger drain on their resources.

But let's take what you said at face value (and ignore the obvious idiocy of anyone who something thinks that the game operates differently in a daily than it does in any other PVE situation). It's a nerf to dailies. Ok, that alone is enough reason to bring it back. Dailies are the single most commonly run PVE content in the game. If you aren't a PVPer, you are going to be running dailies. A lot. Congratulations, you just hosed us one of the most important gear grinds, time sinks, and overall gameplay features. The fun and engagement of the dailies is gone (which is why there are so many people ************ about it), because we're running around completely crippled, especially compared to what we used to be.

Bring back the self-heals, and if you really want to make the PVPers happy, make them PVE-only. PVP has its own unique systems already (Expertise, anyone?), so I don't see why there can't be PVE-only systems. Because they are obviously completely different gameplay systems at heart. But stop screwing Shadow tanks (who are tanks, designed to frelling survive fights, especially in PVE content), just because the PVPers are whining.
It's not a 4% damage reduction it's a 4% increase to armor which is far more valuable!
Alltogether the buffs gave assasssin an additional 12% damage reduction.

Dark Protection stacks are not given to you when the attack is resisted (6% Chance). This is a non-factor if you have a normal Rotation cause the stacks will be reapplied before they run out.

Self Healing is a static value you get, damage reduction depends on the incoming damage. If you think that you get the same damage from doing dailies then from a nim Operation, you are wrong.

It's 100% a buff for Operations, just look at your combat logs or ask your healers. A 12% damage reduction is better then the self heal in every normal Operation Content. For Flashpoints it's about equal.

Self Healing was simply unbalanced. It didn't heal enough in Operation but it healed way too much in dailys.

Assassin Tanks were way superior to all the other tank classes in the game for doing dailies. Tell me a non-healer class that was able to solo dailies with a dps companion without ever resting.
Zahik - NoID - The Red Eclipse

SkybladeDarkstar's Avatar


SkybladeDarkstar
12.24.2013 , 11:23 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
It's not a 4% damage reduction it's a 4% increase to armor which is far more valuable!
Alltogether the buffs gave assasssin an additional 12% damage reduction.

Dark Protection stacks are not given to you when the attack is resisted (6% Chance). This is a non-factor if you have a normal Rotation cause the stacks will be reapplied before they run out.

Self Healing is a static value you get, damage reduction depends on the incoming damage. If you think that you get the same damage from doing dailies then from a nim Operation, you are wrong.

It's 100% a buff for Operations, just look at your combat logs or ask your healers. A 12% damage reduction is better then the self heal in every normal Operation Content. For Flashpoints it's about equal.

Self Healing was simply unbalanced. It didn't heal enough in Operation but it healed way too much in dailys.

Assassin Tanks were way superior to all the other tank classes in the game for doing dailies. Tell me a non-healer class that was able to solo dailies with a dps companion without ever resting.
From the patch notes (and skill description):

•Three stacks of Harnessed Shadows no longer cause the Shadow to be healed when Telekinetic Throw deals damage. Instead, the skill grants Shadow Protection, which increases damage reduction by 1%. Shadow Protection stacks up to four times and lasts 12 seconds.

It says it's increased damage reduction, not increased armor.

Also, the rotation has already been massively skewed by the incredibly short duration of the buff. I used to be able to run constantly and never use Project unless Particle Acceleration popped up, but that luxury has been denied to me (as relying on Particle Acceleration virtually guarantees that you won't have it up constantly). So I'm already having to completely shift how I've played my class, and I'm still noticeably squishier than I was pre-patch.

Oh, and it being "resisted" does matter, since if either the first or last tick of the buff isn't applied, it will reset before the next one pops up.

Also, part of where I noticed this being a nerf was in communication from my healers after the patch. So my healers aren't of the opinion that I've gotten a "100% buff".

I loathe the change to the rotation. I don't mind the change to the self-heals, as long as we're kept in balance to other tanks (which I haven't really noticed, my Vanguard still seems to have more survivability than I do), but I utterly loathe the change from the simple elegance of the old rotation. I thought it flowed more smoothly and kept the fights more fun. The new shift to "keep up Shadow Protection at all costs or you will die" massively skews the rotation and locks down how we can behave a lot more, which in turn makes the class a lot less fun to play.

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
12.24.2013 , 11:45 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by SkybladeDarkstar View Post
From the patch notes (and skill description):

•Three stacks of Harnessed Shadows no longer cause the Shadow to be healed when Telekinetic Throw deals damage. Instead, the skill grants Shadow Protection, which increases damage reduction by 1%. Shadow Protection stacks up to four times and lasts 12 seconds.

It says it's increased damage reduction, not increased armor.

Also, the rotation has already been massively skewed by the incredibly short duration of the buff. I used to be able to run constantly and never use Project unless Particle Acceleration popped up, but that luxury has been denied to me (as relying on Particle Acceleration virtually guarantees that you won't have it up constantly). So I'm already having to completely shift how I've played my class, and I'm still noticeably squishier than I was pre-patch.

Oh, and it being "resisted" does matter, since if either the first or last tick of the buff isn't applied, it will reset before the next one pops up.

Also, part of where I noticed this being a nerf was in communication from my healers after the patch. So my healers aren't of the opinion that I've gotten a "100% buff".

I loathe the change to the rotation. I don't mind the change to the self-heals, as long as we're kept in balance to other tanks (which I haven't really noticed, my Vanguard still seems to have more survivability than I do), but I utterly loathe the change from the simple elegance of the old rotation. I thought it flowed more smoothly and kept the fights more fun. The new shift to "keep up Shadow Protection at all costs or you will die" massively skews the rotation and locks down how we can behave a lot more, which in turn makes the class a lot less fun to play.
When you look at your character sheet you can clearly see that it increases your armor/damage reduction by 4%. Armor and Damage Reduction is in that case the same. Most people don't understand that a 1% increase in damage reduction is far more valuable then 1% damage reduction (from some defensive cooldown or so). One of them is applying a new mitigation scalar, the other one increases a mitgiation scalar.

Simple example: If you armor is increased from 50% to 80% you are getting 20% damage instead of 50%.
That means the damage you now get is reduced by 60%.

Dark Protecion is about a 7% damage reduction, together with the 3,5% armor buff you will get about 12% reduced damage altogether.

When you were not casting Force Lighting every 12 seconds before you were simply not having your self healing up before aswell. Now you have a visible indicator for that.

Previously you should have casted Force Lightning every 9 seconds (and some tanks did actually do that) to get the most out of self healing.

Resisting doesn't matter as you can cast Force Lighting faster, before the buff actually runs out.
Zahik - NoID - The Red Eclipse

SkybladeDarkstar's Avatar


SkybladeDarkstar
12.24.2013 , 12:19 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
When you were not casting Force Lighting every 12 seconds before you were simply not having your self healing up before aswell. Now you have a visible indicator for that.

Previously you should have casted Force Lightning every 9 seconds (and some tanks did actually do that) to get the most out of self healing.

Resisting doesn't matter as you can cast Force Lighting faster, before the buff actually runs out.

Previously, it didn't cripple you to not have self-heals up constantly. You healed the same amount whether you cast it immediately, or waited two seconds for the foe to use another knockback (since a knockback would still interrupt you). Now, however, if you wait, you lose the buff, and have to build it back up. Until you reach four stacks (which, again, means that you can't be resisted or miss), you are weaker. This means that you can't afford to wait, and have to cast the ability, even when you know you're just going to get stunned and interrupted again. You have to stick to the extremely rigid rotation, or lose your buff.

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
12.24.2013 , 01:45 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by SkybladeDarkstar View Post
Previously, it didn't cripple you to not have self-heals up constantly. You healed the same amount whether you cast it immediately, or waited two seconds for the foe to use another knockback (since a knockback would still interrupt you). Now, however, if you wait, you lose the buff, and have to build it back up. Until you reach four stacks (which, again, means that you can't be resisted or miss), you are weaker. This means that you can't afford to wait, and have to cast the ability, even when you know you're just going to get stunned and interrupted again. You have to stick to the extremely rigid rotation, or lose your buff.
No it crippled you because you just had Force Lightning every 14 seconds for example instead of every 12 seconds.
That means less Force Lightnings per second which means less self healing. Waiting for Force Lightning was always a bad idea. Force Lightning did way too much damage to not cast it. Especially when you were at 100% health. Previously your Force Lightning was worthless (survivability wise), now you have additional protection for the next seconds.

That is the same as if you would have Dark Protection downtime. Less Force Lightnings per second mean less armor ...

It's the same for self healing. Until you reach ticks of Force Lightning you had nothing from self-healing.

Previously the Rotation was way more tight, but no one was recognizing that. I am quite sure, if you wouldn't be able to see the Dark Protection buff, no one would complain about this ability at all.

You had to self heal yourself every 9 seconds and channel for a full 3 seconds to get the full value out of self healing. Now you have to get a single tick of Force Lighting up every 12 seconds for the optimal value. After the first channel you don't need to channel Force Lightning anymore. That's a clear buff for assassins.
Zahik - NoID - The Red Eclipse

Aetideus's Avatar


Aetideus
12.24.2013 , 01:56 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by YaanaOhtar View Post
And you believe them because ? before 1.3 shadow was at best during pvp, A Lot pvp cry about shadow tank, they could easily take 2 person and won.
Pve ? mehh, they're nothing better than others.
Of course I do believe them.

If smash affected PvE they would have fixed it long ago.

SkybladeDarkstar's Avatar


SkybladeDarkstar
12.25.2013 , 03:42 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by THoK-Zeus View Post
No it crippled you because you just had Force Lightning every 14 seconds for example instead of every 12 seconds.
That means less Force Lightnings per second which means less self healing. Waiting for Force Lightning was always a bad idea. Force Lightning did way too much damage to not cast it. Especially when you were at 100% health. Previously your Force Lightning was worthless (survivability wise), now you have additional protection for the next seconds.

That is the same as if you would have Dark Protection downtime. Less Force Lightnings per second mean less armor ...

It's the same for self healing. Until you reach ticks of Force Lightning you had nothing from self-healing.

Previously the Rotation was way more tight, but no one was recognizing that. I am quite sure, if you wouldn't be able to see the Dark Protection buff, no one would complain about this ability at all.

You had to self heal yourself every 9 seconds and channel for a full 3 seconds to get the full value out of self healing. Now you have to get a single tick of Force Lighting up every 12 seconds for the optimal value. After the first channel you don't need to channel Force Lightning anymore. That's a clear buff for assassins.
You're right, that's what you needed to do to get the "full value" of it. Now, however, you need to do that to get any value out of it. Delaying Telekinetic Throw may not have been the "ideal" way to play (though, again, it beat casting it and getting interrupted immediately), but it was a definite and clear option. It made the rotation more fluid, and gave you some actual options with how you approached the situation. Now, you have to hit a completely fixed rotation of Project, Slow Time, Project, Telekinetic Throw. Over and over and over with no variation what so ever. It has made the class far less fun to play, and far more rigid (and can be hurt by even the slightest bit of lag or player delay after the third rotation, when the cooldowns begin interfering with each other).

Yes, there used to be an "optimal" rotation, but it wasn't the only viable one, and now it is. Delaying Force Lightning, or delaying Project until Particle Acceleration triggered was completely viable and did not cut into your survivability much at all. It shifted up the rotation, kept you more engaged, and let you react to the situation at hand (such as, if you're facing an opponent like the Gree Pillar boss, who uses so many stuns and knockbacks that it is basically impossible to keep a fixed rotation of Telekinetic Throws). Now, I feel that there's no point to me even being there. I might as well just have a fixed time rotation programmed in, and let the game play itself.

The "huge buff" is useless if we can't keep it up, and without either the buff or the self healing, we're woefully weak compared to the other tanks.