...

 

If on the other hand, you want to argue that you have to be able to receive those bonuses at level 1, then they can't be so insignificant, can they?

After all of my calculations, stats and presentations in this thread, you still don't believe they're insignificant?

Seriously?

After all of my calculations, stats and presentations in this thread, you still don't believe they're insignificant?

 

Seriously?

My only point in that post was that if they are so insignificant, then why do so many people seem to insist that they receive those bonuses at level 1 rather than unlocking them at max level? I know you have said you are ok with waiting until a character reaches max level for the legacy datacron unlock to be applied, but many others aren't because they have to have those "insignificant" stat bonuses at level 1.

My only point in that post was that if they are so insignificant, then why do so many people seem to insist that they receive those bonuses at level 1 rather than unlocking them at max level? I know you have said you are ok with waiting until a character reaches max level for the legacy datacron unlock to be applied, but many others aren't because they have to have those "insignificant" stat bonuses at level 1.

Okay.

But why is "how significant the stat bonuses are" even a part of your argument against it?

Legacy things that are already in the game that provide benefits to a new character at level 1 include:

+1% accuracy/crit/surge/hp/healing

+5% crit/power/hp/damage buffs

+82 power in legacy crystals (from collections)

+HK-51 companion at level 1 (with unlock)

+500 presence bonus

It's fine that you disagree with making the datacrons a legacy unlock. But can you formulate an argument against it that doesn't include "it gives an advantage to your level 1 character" when there are ALREADY legacy perks in the game that do JUST THAT.

This way you don’t have to go through the horrible jumping obstacle multiple times.

Why complain about the <10% that actually require hardcore jumping or the <20% that require a little jumping? Why not look at it as 80-90% are STUPIDLY easy to get cuz you just walk up to and grab them? So what if a FEW of them are difficult?

So you get a LOT of them for doing almost nothing, that's not good enough for some reason if a few of them are difficult. Sadly, the glass is always half empty instead of half full.

Why complain about the <10% that actually require hardcore jumping or the <20% that require a little jumping? Why not look at it as 80-90% are STUPIDLY easy to get cuz you just walk up to and grab them? So what if a FEW of them are difficult?

 

So you get a LOT of them for doing almost nothing, that's not good enough for some reason if a few of them are difficult. Sadly, the glass is always half empty instead of half full.

Probably because having to ACTUALLY <gasp> get them on each character would require <gasp> a little EFFORT, and a lot of those requesting legacy wide datacrons are averse to work or effort.

Okay.

 

But why is "how significant the stat bonuses are" even a part of your argument against it?

 

Legacy things that are already in the game that provide benefits to a new character at level 1 include:

 

+1% accuracy/crit/surge/hp/healing

+5% crit/power/hp/damage buffs

+82 power in legacy crystals (from collections)

+HK-51 companion at level 1 (with unlock)

+500 presence bonus

 

It's fine that you disagree with making the datacrons a legacy unlock. But can you formulate an argument against it that doesn't include "it gives an advantage to your level 1 character" when there are ALREADY legacy perks in the game that do JUST THAT.

Again, if you are going to argue the:

If A is in the game, and B is similar to A, then why isn't B in the game, then once B is implemented the argument becomes if B is in the game and C is similar to B, then why isn't C in the game.

We already have people asking to be able to BUY the class buff unlocks, rather than actually putting the time into leveling the necessary classes to unlock those buffs. Where does it stop? Where do you draw the line?

How do the people who want to be able to buy the legacy datacron unlocks feel about letting people buy the class buff unlocks once they reach chapter 2 on at least one character? After all, they will have already unlocked the class buff on one character, and why make them go to all that effort to unlock buffs on other characters.

...

 

We already have people asking to be able to BUY the class buff unlocks, rather than actually putting the time into leveling the necessary classes to unlock those buffs. Where does it stop? Where do you draw the line?

 

...

I guess you're arguing that this is a slippery slope, and that if things like this continue, there will be nothing left to do in the game, or something.

Do you have a link to the post that was asking for the ability to purchase class buff unlocks without playing the class? That sort of request would surprise me.

I guess you're arguing that this is a slippery slope, and that if things like this continue, there will be nothing left to do in the game, or something.

 

Do you have a link to the post that was asking for the ability to purchase class buff unlocks without playing the class? That sort of request would surprise me.

Ask and ye shall receive:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=643519

Ask and ye shall receive:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=643519

Wow. Perusing that thread, I found it interesting how the OP kept a consistent party line of "I know you are - but what am I??" with a complete lack of a coherent argument or logic. Urgh.

Personally, I would be very unhappy if the class buffs were offered as an unlock for credits or cartel coins.

Similarly, I would be unhappy if the Datacrons were offered as an unlock without having gotten them all already.

This sort of approach appeals to me:

1. Unlock all the datacrons doing them correctly. As in, every single one of them both Empire and Republic.

2. Once completed, you can then do a "Unlock Datacrons for your Legacy"

3. However, you have to pay for a separate unlock for each individual toon.

This is how the HK-51 companion droid was implemented.

The reason why this approach appeals to me, is I would suddenly find myself wanting to actually get all the datacrons. Up to this point, I've done about 3.

Wow. Perusing that thread, I found it interesting how the OP kept a consistent party line of "I know you are - but what am I??" with a complete lack of a coherent argument or logic. Urgh.

 

Personally, I would be very unhappy if the class buffs were offered as an unlock for credits or cartel coins.

 

Similarly, I would be unhappy if the Datacrons were offered as an unlock without having gotten them all already.

 

This sort of approach appeals to me:

 

1. Unlock all the datacrons doing them correctly. As in, every single one of them both Empire and Republic.

2. Once completed, you can then do a "Unlock Datacrons for your Legacy"

3. However, you have to pay for a separate unlock for each individual toon.

 

This is how the HK-51 companion droid was implemented.

 

The reason why this approach appeals to me, is I would suddenly find myself wanting to actually get all the datacrons. Up to this point, I've done about 3.

So, where do they/you draw the line with allowing people to buy unlocks that add stats or boosts to characters?

So, where do they/you draw the line with allowing people to buy unlocks that add stats or boosts to characters?

It's a good question. And each person will have their own opinion. The suggestion I outlined above would fall behind the line I drew.

So, where do they/you draw the line with allowing people to buy unlocks that add stats or boosts to characters?

My line would be drawing the line at GASP what's already in the game! Like every single datacron, you dolt.

The whole reason people want this 'insignificant' stat boost is FOR when they're low level, because leveling your 9th character is boring as hell. I've got 6 level 50+s, and my 7th character has 400 presence. My companion (Kaliyo) literally one shots things that are within 1-2 levels of me, and can solo groups of two strongs + 3 normal. Hell, I took her into the Heroic 2's on Dromund Kaas and she could solo the mobs, while I was still equal level for when I should have got it.

Every time you argue that these stat boosts are unbalancing, you're acting like a fool, because news flash - the game is already unbalanced.

I'd argue that having it be an individual unlock that you have to buy with credits would be fine - we've already seen big credit sinks in the Legacy Menu, and if someone really wants to spend 3mil credits to get some stats that they've earned on another character, let them.

My line would be drawing the line at GASP what's already in the game! Like every single datacron, you dolt.

 

The whole reason people want this 'insignificant' stat boost is FOR when they're low level, because leveling your 9th character is boring as hell. I've got 6 level 50+s, and my 7th character has 400 presence. My companion (Kaliyo) literally one shots things that are within 1-2 levels of me, and can solo groups of two strongs + 3 normal. Hell, I took her into the Heroic 2's on Dromund Kaas and she could solo the mobs, while I was still equal level for when I should have got it.

 

Every time you argue that these stat boosts are unbalancing, you're acting like a fool, because news flash - the game is already unbalanced.

 

I'd argue that having it be an individual unlock that you have to buy with credits would be fine - we've already seen big credit sinks in the Legacy Menu, and if someone really wants to spend 3mil credits to get some stats that they've earned on another character, let them.

Draw the line at what is already in the game? That would eliminate the possibility of legacy wide datacrons because legacy wide datacrons are not in the game. Datacrons may be in the game, but legacy wide datacrons are not already in the game.

The class buffs are already in the game. If players are allowed to purchase boosts to their characters using a lagacy wide datacron feature, then why not allow people to purchase boosts to characters by allowing the class buffs to be purchased once a player unlocks the class buff on at least one character. After all, if someone wants to spend 300million credits (or a few CC's) to get an unlock they've already earned on another character, let them.

For that matter, as I said before, let's allow people to play some credits or CC's and create max level characters with all companions at max affection and all companion unlocks once they have already reached max level with one character, maxed all companion affection and unlocked all companions with that character. If someone wants to spend a few credits or CC's to reap the benefits of work they did with one character on new character, let them, right?

The lack of legacy wide datacrons is one of the reasons to why I'm having a hard time leveling alts. First, I'm not a fan leveling, period. On top of this I'm suffering from small OCD disorder when it comes to completion.

So here you have a guy who doesnt want to level a char in the first place but when he does is feeling forced to do a bunch of crap, including getting the datacrons once again, for completion.

I don't really get what the nay-sayers are on about though. It's not hard or an accomplishment to get the datacrons, any idiot can look it up on YT, it's just a horribly boring time sink. If I wanted to jump around I would have played Mario instead.

I would definitely like account wide datacrons. I enjoy hunting the datacrons, but only the first time around.

The "when I was a kid, we had to walk uphill, both ways, in the snow" crowd needs to take their arguments somewhere else. Unless you lack the ability to process experiences into memories, you're not going to find repetition fun. I can barely stand leveling another character, because I have to go through the same missions, on the same planets, in the same order as the last character. No way I'm going to go look for the same datacrons as well.

This game is already suffering from a pretty severe case of linearity. Let's try to make it less of a chore where possible, shall we?

I would definitely like account wide datacrons. I enjoy hunting the datacrons, but only the first time around.

 

The "when I was a kid, we had to walk uphill, both ways, in the snow" crowd needs to take their arguments somewhere else. Unless you lack the ability to process experiences into memories, you're not going to find repetition fun. I can barely stand leveling another character, because I have to go through the same missions, on the same planets, in the same order as the last character. No way I'm going to go look for the same datacrons as well.

 

This game is already suffering from a pretty severe case of linearity. Let's try to make it less of a chore where possible, shall we?

The "I did it once on one character, and so should reap the benefits on every character I have" crowd wants to talk about the "when I was a kid, we had to walk uphill, both ways, in the snow" crowd?

The bonuses are so tiny that caring either way is absolutely laughable. You aren't going to succeed or fail in anything based on how many datacrons you've collected. If the bonus was substantial, there would be a point to this but it isn't.

When they add a 0 to the end of the bonus per datacron, they start mattering. You're all arguing for the sake arguing and most likely, feeding trolls.

The "I did it once on one character, and so should reap the benefits on every character I have" crowd wants to talk about the "when I was a kid, we had to walk uphill, both ways, in the snow" crowd?

Give one good reason why every character should have to click the datacrons. One GOOD reason. None of that "because it's about effort, man". My one good reason why they shouldn't is this one:

Repetition is not fun.

When a game stops being fun, users stop wanting to play it. Ask any game publisher/developer in the history of ever. Now, if you can dispute this claim, I will bring forth another good reason, but first I'd very much like to hear (read?) yours.

Give one good reason why every character should have to click the datacrons. One GOOD reason. None of that "because it's about effort, man". My one good reason why they shouldn't is this one:

 

Repetition is not fun.

 

When a game stops being fun, users stop wanting to play it. Ask any game publisher/developer in the history of ever. Now, if you can dispute this claim, I will bring forth another good reason, but first I'd very much like to hear (read?) yours.

You won't like it, but here's a reason for not adding legacy wide datacrons that is every bit as good as the one you gave in favor of legacy wide datacrons.

Handing things to people for free promotes laziness.

You can say that you found them once on one character, but if you want the benefits on all characters for finding them on one character, you are asking for those benefits to be handed to you for characters that did not find them.

Would both enable a player to reap the benefits of one character's efforts on other characters? Would both enable players to skip certain portions of the game that they may not find enjoyable? They sound pretty comparable to me. They might differ in degree, but they ARE comparable.

However, the difference in degree is so remarkably vast, that it isn't going to convince anyone that isn't already on your side.

Let me rephrase. When you made the "slippery slope" argument, I could see your point. It seems as though you feel that the more "laziness" features are added to the game, the more demands will be made by lazy players, and it will eventually wind up with nothing left to do but spend cartel coins on unlocks.

I can follow this argument. In my personal estimation (and this is just opinion of course) the datacron unlock falls well within the current realm of what the devs have already put into the game, and will not, in fact, lead down that garden path you are worried about.

But when you talk about "unlocking an instant level 55 toon" it actually fights against your position. PetFish was snidely commenting on the misuse of the "Straw Man Argument", but it works in this sense.

It is defined as: "To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position"

I'm pretty sure that NOBODY in this thread that is in favor of a legacy datacron unlock is ALSO in favor of an instant-level-55 unlock. These two things are "superficially similar yet unequivalent"

I certainly don't want the instant level 55. I find the idea abhorrent. And yet, I am in favor of the legecay datacron unlock as laid out in an earlier post of mine.

...

1. Unlock all the datacrons doing them correctly. As in, every single one of them both Empire and Republic.

2. Once completed, you can then do a "Unlock Datacrons for your Legacy"

3. However, you have to pay for a separate unlock for each individual toon.

...

Can you see that these two things are different enough that it is possible to want one, and not the other?

Give one good reason why every character should have to click the datacrons. One GOOD reason.

Datacrons are consumables just like stims and no other character gets the benefit from any consumable any other character uses just like no other character should get the benefit from a consumed Datacron.

I'm expecting you'll probably go "straw man" or "moving goal posts" to invalidate this reason in order to make it not fit your definition of what a "good reason" is.

...

 

Handing things to people for free promotes laziness.

 

...

You are 100% correct. That is exactly how I view EVERY legacy unlock. (Other than the fact that they're not really free )

I view them "earned" laziness. It's a perk. I've played the game for x hours. Done y things. Obtained z legacy. This allows me to be "lazy" and skip over things rather than doing the very same things again and again.

From where I sit, this the reason why legacy exists.

Datacrons are consumables just like stims and no other character gets the benefit from any consumable any other character uses just like no other character should get the benefit from a consumed Datacron.

 

...

Well, the +5% buffs gotten from legacy are also like consumables. They're good for 30 minutes, and you have to keep refreshing them. In fact, they're exactly like a reusable biochem stim.

AND, once you've unlocked a +5% class buff, it's available to all characters.

However, the difference in degree is so remarkably vast, that it isn't going to convince anyone that isn't already on your side.

 

Let me rephrase. When you made the "slippery slope" argument, I could see your point. It seems as though you feel that the more "laziness" features are added to the game, the more demands will be made by lazy players, and it will eventually wind up with nothing left to do but spend cartel coins on unlocks.

 

I can follow this argument. In my personal estimation (and this is just opinion of course) the datacron unlock falls well within the current realm of what the devs have already put into the game, and will not, in fact, lead down that garden path you are worried about.

 

But when you talk about "unlocking an instant level 55 toon" it actually fights against your position. PetFish was snidely commenting on the misuse of the "Straw Man Argument", but it works in this sense.

 

It is defined as: "To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position"

 

I'm pretty sure that NOBODY in this thread that is in favor of a legacy datacron unlock is ALSO in favor of an instant-level-55 unlock. These two things are "superficially similar yet unequivalent"

 

I certainly don't want the instant level 55. I find the idea abhorrent. And yet, I am in favor of the legecay datacron unlock as laid out in an earlier post of mine.

 

Can you see that these two things are different enough that it is possible to want one, and not the other?

I recognize that it is possible to want one and not the other, just as it is possible to want the legacy wide datacron unlocks and not the ability to purchase class buffs unlocks. Where you and I differ is in the reasoning for being able to want one and not the other. You see it as a matter of degree and I see it as more of a case of "what I want is acceptable and necessary, but if I don't want it, no one else is can have what they want."

We've seen this time and time again, in the argument that "datacron hunting is boring and just a timesink" from many of those wanting the legacy wide datacrons, but those same people argue that something else that others find boring or annoying is fun and so should not available as an unlock.

You are 100% correct. That is exactly how I view EVERY legacy unlock. (Other than the fact that they're not really free )

 

I view them "earned" laziness. It's a perk. I've played the game for x hours. Done y things. Obtained z legacy. This allows me to be "lazy" and skip over things rather than doing the very same things again and again.

 

From where I sit, this the reason why legacy exists.

See? We've already started down the "slippery slope" with what BW added already. We've got all the legacy perks they've already added to the game, and here we are in a thread started by someone demanding another because they "earned the right to be lazy".

Remember that great children's book, "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie..."? Sound familiar?

As I said before where does it end?