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My issues with Vanguard DPS


IanSterling's Avatar


IanSterling
03.18.2018 , 01:16 PM | #1
My first Trooper was a Vanguard tank - loved it. It was great. I have a Commando, it's alright. But then I thought I'd try a DPS spec Vanguard to have a blaster rifle "at range" instead of in the thick of it of all. Totally disappointed on that, as well as some other things....

As DPS spec, the majority of my abilities still have a short 10m range. As DPS, I don't need to be in the thick of things (like a tank would) - why are my blasts limited to short range?? And if I HAVE to have short range abilities and be in the middle of things, then we should get Storm MUCH sooner than level 65! It was PAINFUL to level up this character. Now that I can actually leap into range and actually use these short range abilities without having to SLOWLY jog into battle due to movement suppression, my character is actually playable and somewhat enjoyable. But getting to level 65 was murderous.

But the WORST thing about a DPS Vanguard - the absolute worst, imo - is that Stockstrike does MORE damage than any of my rifle blasts!!! SERIOUSLY?!?! Hitting someone with the butt of my rifle does more damage than shooting them?!?! Come on!! I get that it might best to do that mechanically for tank spec and it also helps them to generate threat - but as DPS spec, Stockstrike should NOT be the highest damaging ability. It MIGHT be ok if the range of the DPS Vanguard was extended so you could use Stockstrike on that one mob that tends to rush you. But still, even then, thematically, it's just plain WRONG.

lightSaberAddiCt's Avatar


lightSaberAddiCt
03.18.2018 , 03:18 PM | #2
Dude, Vanguard DPS is all within 10m range since day one. And you can wrack out crazy dps using tactics.
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Lt-Snake's Avatar


Lt-Snake
03.18.2018 , 05:27 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by IanSterling View Post
My first Trooper was a Vanguard tank - loved it. It was great. I have a Commando, it's alright. But then I thought I'd try a DPS spec Vanguard to have a blaster rifle "at range" instead of in the thick of it of all. Totally disappointed on that, as well as some other things....

As DPS spec, the majority of my abilities still have a short 10m range. As DPS, I don't need to be in the thick of things (like a tank would) - why are my blasts limited to short range?? And if I HAVE to have short range abilities and be in the middle of things, then we should get Storm MUCH sooner than level 65! It was PAINFUL to level up this character. Now that I can actually leap into range and actually use these short range abilities without having to SLOWLY jog into battle due to movement suppression, my character is actually playable and somewhat enjoyable. But getting to level 65 was murderous.

But the WORST thing about a DPS Vanguard - the absolute worst, imo - is that Stockstrike does MORE damage than any of my rifle blasts!!! SERIOUSLY?!?! Hitting someone with the butt of my rifle does more damage than shooting them?!?! Come on!! I get that it might best to do that mechanically for tank spec and it also helps them to generate threat - but as DPS spec, Stockstrike should NOT be the highest damaging ability. It MIGHT be ok if the range of the DPS Vanguard was extended so you could use Stockstrike on that one mob that tends to rush you. But still, even then, thematically, it's just plain WRONG.
sounds like a whole bunch of nothing to me
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TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
03.19.2018 , 01:09 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by lightSaberAddiCt View Post
Dude, Vanguard DPS is all within 10m range since day one. And you can wrack out crazy dps using tactics.
Umm no. A lot of abilities used to be 20-30m ranged. Got range nerfed when they gave the advanced classes at lvl 1.
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RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
03.19.2018 , 04:13 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
Umm no. A lot of abilities used to be 20-30m ranged. Got range nerfed when they gave the advanced classes at lvl 1.
Pretty sure it was part of balance changes to make Vanguard/Powertech have less utility/kiting potential in PvP, overall the changes were then, and still are quite reasonable, the fact that more or less all parts of the rotation could be done at range was ridiculous. It might not be great for roleplayers who prefer to play their character like a "range/medium range" Trooper like I think OP is hinting towards, but from a balancing perspective, it's not viable to go back to what we had before.

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Bonzenaattori's Avatar


Bonzenaattori
03.19.2018 , 07:02 PM | #6
Well that depends what way you look at it.

Vanguard only had 2 abilities (in comparison to now) that was > 10m range, that being Explosive Round and High Impact bolt. If you think that gives them extremely good (arguably to the point it needs to be nerfed) then you need to explain why Guardian is getting long range option with ridiculous utility. For example, a 30m execute, that can be used regardless of health condition on a procc effect, that slows the target and does extremely high yield damage.
That's not really melee-esc now is it?

It doesn't make sense to nerf the long range of a hybrid ranged class, only to increase the long range option select on a traditional melee ranged class, and not only that, but completely trump it's utility in both value and capability.
Simply put, negligence. It's the outstanding thing that defines the difference between the two, and anybody could say based off that; as far as devs are concerned, making Guardians better is far more important than making Vanguards better.

Pzhang's Avatar


Pzhang
03.26.2018 , 07:10 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by IanSterling View Post
My first Trooper was a Vanguard tank - loved it. It was great. I have a Commando, it's alright. But then I thought I'd try a DPS spec Vanguard to have a blaster rifle "at range" instead of in the thick of it of all. Totally disappointed on that, as well as some other things....

As DPS spec, the majority of my abilities still have a short 10m range. As DPS, I don't need to be in the thick of things (like a tank would) - why are my blasts limited to short range?? And if I HAVE to have short range abilities and be in the middle of things, then we should get Storm MUCH sooner than level 65! It was PAINFUL to level up this character. Now that I can actually leap into range and actually use these short range abilities without having to SLOWLY jog into battle due to movement suppression, my character is actually playable and somewhat enjoyable. But getting to level 65 was murderous.

But the WORST thing about a DPS Vanguard - the absolute worst, imo - is that Stockstrike does MORE damage than any of my rifle blasts!!! SERIOUSLY?!?! Hitting someone with the butt of my rifle does more damage than shooting them?!?! Come on!! I get that it might best to do that mechanically for tank spec and it also helps them to generate threat - but as DPS spec, Stockstrike should NOT be the highest damaging ability. It MIGHT be ok if the range of the DPS Vanguard was extended so you could use Stockstrike on that one mob that tends to rush you. But still, even then, thematically, it's just plain WRONG.
If you want ranged, go play a Commando, Sage, or Gunslinger.

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
03.27.2018 , 07:37 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by RikuvonDrake View Post
Pretty sure it was part of balance changes to make Vanguard/Powertech have less utility/kiting potential in PvP, overall the changes were then, and still are quite reasonable, the fact that more or less all parts of the rotation could be done at range was ridiculous. It might not be great for roleplayers who prefer to play their character like a "range/medium range" Trooper like I think OP is hinting towards, but from a balancing perspective, it's not viable to go back to what we had before.
No, VGs were just fine because their range was part of their defense. But now forced into melee range they don't have the defenses of other tanks to stand in close quarters and fight.

So yes a 15m range even would be good. At least they jave a chance to be a ranged tank instead of a weak melee tank.

That or allow them to use the tech blades and for animations use the shoulder cannon for stuff like shatter slug or arty barrage. PT most of their animations come from their gauntlets anyways.

Going to force melee range on VG/PT do the deed and allow us to use tech blades and fight from short range. And for BH who go full mando, Beskar blades.
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PrometheanDeath's Avatar


PrometheanDeath
03.28.2018 , 12:42 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
No, VGs were just fine because their range was part of their defense. But now forced into melee range they don't have the defenses of other tanks to stand in close quarters and fight.

So yes a 15m range even would be good. At least they jave a chance to be a ranged tank instead of a weak melee tank
That's what made PTs so good in the beginning, was our ability of range. A mid range class with a few tied melee and ranged attacks, which in turn made PT very flexible. Now that we were turned into a melee class, not only was our greatest defense taken away, but we got nothing in turn to compensate for that loss. A PT/vanguard Dps melts faster than light armor characters such as sorc, and every class in game now has some version of kiting or mobility that was almost a pvp exclusive to PT/Vanguard in the beginning of this game.

Before a PT could pop hydraulics and run circles around their slowed target, taking no damage due to slows prevent the melee classes from hitting them in their hydraulics boosted state. Now we have Juggs with enraged defense giving a similar hydraulic boost, marauders with a just as fast and lower CD predation which is to group, and sorcs now have so much kiting/mobility their static barrier + stun is enough to keep a healer alive. Some defenses need an upgrade like our merc counterpart had, or better yet get something new though it'll never happen. It's been sad seeing our only viable option is to bring a pocket healer in pvp to live, or put more stress on pve healers cause of our single energy shield DCD.

Guess we'll just have to live with the "Glass cannon" title despite being a part "tank" class.

Ibokagain's Avatar


Ibokagain
04.03.2018 , 10:34 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by PrometheanDeath View Post
That's what made PTs so good in the beginning, was our ability of range. A mid range class with a few tied melee and ranged attacks, which in turn made PT very flexible. Now that we were turned into a melee class, not only was our greatest defense taken away, but we got nothing in turn to compensate for that loss. A PT/vanguard Dps melts faster than light armor characters such as sorc, and every class in game now has some version of kiting or mobility that was almost a pvp exclusive to PT/Vanguard in the beginning of this game.

Before a PT could pop hydraulics and run circles around their slowed target, taking no damage due to slows prevent the melee classes from hitting them in their hydraulics boosted state. Now we have Juggs with enraged defense giving a similar hydraulic boost, marauders with a just as fast and lower CD predation which is to group, and sorcs now have so much kiting/mobility their static barrier + stun is enough to keep a healer alive. Some defenses need an upgrade like our merc counterpart had, or better yet get something new though it'll never happen. It's been sad seeing our only viable option is to bring a pocket healer in pvp to live, or put more stress on pve healers cause of our single energy shield DCD.

Guess we'll just have to live with the "Glass cannon" title despite being a part "tank" class.
^This big time.