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Macros - ETA?


Bald_Haliaeetus

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[EDIT]

 

:csw_yoda:Much confusion, there is. This edit, you must comprehend; or look like an idiot, you will. Apologize for the wall-o-text, I do.

 

The discussion thus-far has been plagued with ignorance. There is a general lack of understanding of what a macro is, especially in the context of an MMO (and SWTOR specifically); and how it differs from an addon. Please take the time to understand the following - a lot of people are submitting posts that make them look like an imbecile because they have no understanding of what they're posting about... do not be one of those people.

 

First off, what is a macro? What is an addon? How are they different? Well, that depends on what game you're talking about, and since macros aren't currently in SWTOR, all we can do is compare it to other games.

 

The most refined, functional, and balanced macro setup I'm aware of is WoW's. A good contrast would be Rift's... so let's take a look at the differences between them.

 

WoW macros: Described in detail HERE. Check it out, familiarize yourself with the terminology and the functionality.

 

Some things to note about WoW macros:

One keystroke = one ability, barring abilities that are not on the GCD that are not reactive abilities (reactive abilities are ones like "can only be performed after blocking" - although these are usually off the GCD, they cannot be used in tandem with another ability via macro). These exceptions would be things like racial abilities, trinkets, and talented abilities - so, most of them you wouldn't want to macro into another ability, and those you do don't really offer a game changing difference; it's pretty minor.

WoW macros cannot make decisions for you. for example, if you have two abilities that are pretty much the same, except that one does more damage, but requires you be standing behind a target, and you try to make a macro that prioritizes the high damage ability, but uses the weaker one when the condition of being behind your target is not met, the macro will fail.

 

There are more limiting factors than just that, for the sake of reducing this wall-o-text I need not list them (check out the link above if you want the details). Point is, the macros are NOT overpowered. Blizzard won't let them be, which is one of the few things that company is doing right (what? gotta hate on woW just a little! :p). When BW introduces macros to SWTOR, we expect similar limitations, and we expect BW not not let them be over powered.

 

So with such a solid system, why is there so much macro-hate going around? There appear to be three primary causes of the macro-hate: 1) Not understanding the context of the term 'macro' as it applies to MMOs, 2) thinking that the macros in one game will be similar to the macros of another, and 3) confusing macros with addons.

 

1) Not understanding the context of the term 'macro' as it applies to MMOs.

Generally speaking, macros are associated with automation... they can click for us, hit keystrokes for us, open or close programs... you name it. But that's 'generally' speaking. When you see the term macro pop up in an MMO board, it's probably referring to in-game macros, via which automation is not possible (or at the very least, so minimal that it doesn't offer any real advantage vs not using a macro). In game macros have limitations, as mentioned above, and that's the main difference between in-game macros and 'general' (3rd party) macros.

 

2) thinking that the macros in one game will be similar to the macros of another

Lets make this clear: macros are capable of whatever the devs let them be. The devs of some games have produced a macro setup that is, without a doubt, overpowered. Rift is the best example I'm familiar with. Here's a Rift macro:

 

#show Fervent Strike

suppressmacrofailures

petattack

petcast Enraged Assault

petcast Satyr Sweep

cast Combined Effort

cast Lightning Hammer

cast Eruption of Life

cast Bombard

cast Sanction Heretic

cast Massive Blow

cast Fervent Strike

cast Vex

cast Jolt

cast Fae Hammer

cast Fated Blow

cast Glory of the Chosen

 

When this macro is executed, the game attempts to use EVERY ability on the list, starting from the top and working it's way down... so if one ability is on its cooldown, it will just jump to the next. This allows players to use one button to execute as many abilities as they want in PERFECT rotation. THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WANT! It is unacceptable; players literally just mash one button for single target dps, one for aoe dps, a couple for tanking and a couple for healing. In Rift, the use of macros is mandatory; you simply cannot outperform a perfect rotation. Several posters have mentioned that macros are bad because they allow for "I-win-buttons" and I believe games like Rift are responsible for that mentality. We want a macro setup more akin to WoW's; one that offers players a degree of functionality, but with restrictions so things don't get out of hand. If the players find a way to use macros to come up with an "I-win-button" then it is BW's responsibility to break that macro and restore balance.

 

3) confusing macros with addons

The other thing that's generating a lot of unnecessary hate toward macros, are addons. A few examples of addons would be Healbot, recount, gearscore, DBM, gatherer... these are UI modifications much more complex than just a macro, and usually have to be downloaded, whereas macros can just be typed up or copy/pasted. Some addons are quite controversial... gearscore, for example, is the source of a lot of grief and stupidity; it's a tool that is seldom used correctly, and is therefore generally disliked. Whatever your opinion of addons, keep them to yourself. They are not a factor in this discussion. They are off-topic. This thread is littered with comments like "macros are bad because Healbot just plays the game for you!" Healbot is NOT a macro. This thread is about macros, NOT addons.

 

 

 

 

A poster recently pointed out that, while I've provided a lengthy list of things macros can/should NOT be able to do, I've pretty much failed entirely to provide examples pf what macros SHOULD do. So here's a few examples of the kind of macros that I'd actually like to see in game - feel free to contribute to or contest the list, as I certainly don't speak for everyone.

 

 

-Mouseover Macros-

These are my bread and butter, and definitely my personal motivation for keeping this conversation alive. Mouseover pretty much functions as a third target type; click-to-target and focus target being the other two. Basically, any spell tied to a mouseover macro will be cast at whoever your cursor is hovering over at that time. For example:

 

/cast [@mouseover] HealingSpell

 

if I bind that macro to action-button-1, to use it, I just move my cursor over a unit, or that unit's portrait (such as in a group pane) and press 1. Doing this allows me to cast the healing spell on whoever I want without having to actually change targets, which is nice if I want to have an aggressive unit targeted so I can pepper it with offensive abilities, and simultaneously heal my group by mousing over their portraits and pressing the appropriate mouseover spells.

 

 

-Condition Macros-

Setting a condition in a macro can make it do different things based on the circumstances. These are NOT conditions like being behind a target, or having just performed a block, etc. but things that are much less critical. A few examples...

 

/cast [help] HealingSpell; [Hurt] DamagingSpell

 

"help" refers to any target than can receive friendly spells; "hurt" refers to any target that can be attacked. So the example I just provided would heal a friendly player, but attack a hostile player. These are GREAT for healers, since we have two sets of spells (healing and damaging) you don't have to decide which set to bind to your easy-to-reach keys (123456). If you have six healing spells, and six offensive spells, you can use the same 6 keys to cast the spell. You still have to remember which spell is bound to which key, and know when to use them, but it makes the gameplay so much more fluid.

 

Other conditions would be things like [mounted], [stealth], [cover], [combat] etc. An example for each of those:

 

/cast [mounted] Shield; [nomounted] NameOfMount

 

It's common practice at this point to put a shield up, get on a mount, then soar through some hostile units without fear of being dismounted; this macro would allow you to do that with one button - if you're currently mounted and approach some hostiles, hit the macro and you'll cast shield (dismounting yourself) and hit it again to remount.

 

/cast [combat] Shield; [nocombat, mounted] Shield; [nocombat, nomounted] NameOfMount

 

Same as the previous macro, except this one would have the added utility of ignoring the mount functions when you're in combat, and only using the shield.

 

/cast [stealth] Sleeper Dart; [nostealth] Rifle Shot

 

If stealthed it will give the target a nap; if not stealthed, it will put a hole in the target's face.

 

/cast [cover] Snipe; [nocover] Overload Shot

 

Similar to the last macro but with ranged abilities and cover

 

/cast [nocover] Take Cover; [cover] Snipe

 

No fumbling around with the cover mechanic any more! All you have to do is press the keybind once to go into cover, and again to use the ability. Some folks really like cover as is, but I personally find it a bit awkward - this macro would make it sooo much more enjoyable for me.

 

Anyway, this wall-o-text is just getting too long, so I'm not going to list any more examples here; but check out these WoW macro listings for more of the kind of thing we'd like to see:

 

Death Knight, Druid, Hunter, Mage, Paladin, Priest, Rogue, Shaman, Warlock, Warrior

 

 

Now that you know what you're reading/posting about, let's debunk some of the myths that have been posted prior to this edit being created:

 

Myth - "SWTOR does not need macros; I'm doing fine without them, and wouldn't use them if we had the option."

Debunker - This is a 'massively multiplayer' game. Any one person's opinion is moot, so to say that the game doesn't need them because they do not suite your personal preference is asinine. What this game needs is what appeals to large portions of the player-base; and regardless of your personal opinion on the matter, macros appeal to a large portion of the player-base.

 

Myth - "Macros will allow for 'i-win-buttons' or perfect execution of a rotation by mashing a single button."

Debunker - Macros will allow for whatever Bioware decides they should allow. I'm about... idk... 100% certain that BW doesn't want us condensing our entire spellbook into one button to be mashed that will cause our characters to perform perfectly... and if BW doesn't want it, it will not happen.

 

Myth - "Macros make the game too easy; if you need macros, you are bad."

Debunker - Macros do not have an impact on the difficulty of the game. They allow players to customize how the game reacts to they're pressing of a button. You could argue that players who need to use action bars are bad; players with real skill should just click them straight out of the spallbook. It can even be argued that if you don't want macros in game, YOU are bad, because all you want is for more skilled players to stoop to your level by taking away their tools of the trade.... but that's a bit harsh, IMO. It comes down to the preference of the individual - if you like using macros, use them! if you don't like using macros, don't use them! Play according to your own preference, and don't try to enforce your preference on other players.

 

Myth - "SWTOR doesn't support macros."

Debunker - BW has already stated their intention to add in-game macro functionality at some point post-launch... but the fact is, macros can already be used with SWTOR; there are mouses and keyboards that can run macros, free software that can run macros... all of which can be used to play SWTOR. Thing is, these are the 'general' macros mentioned above... they can pretty much allow full automation for certain types of gameplay... Offering in-game macros, even with limitations, would only balance the playing fielf that has been skewed by 3rd party macros.

 

Myth - "Enabling macros will make the use of macros mandatory; players who refuse will be labeled as bad."

Debunker - Again, macros will be capable of whatever BW lets them. BW knows what they're doing; they're not going to come up with something like Rift's abomination that allows for perfect rotation execution, and if a player finds a loophole to make that happen, BW can break it.

 

Myth - "Enabling macros will give a hefty advantage to the 'tech-savvy', and the player's actual skill will be less of a factor."

Debunker - Not at all. Computers have this nifty feature called "copy/paste" so when one of them tech-savvy folks comes up with something amazing, anyone can use it! You don't need to know how macros work to use the macro, you just need to know what's gonna happen when you use it... to say that only tech-savvy people can use macros is like saying that automotive engineers are the only people who can drive cars... constructing and operating are two different animals, amigo.

 

[/EDIT]

 

 

Original Text:

 

I've always enjoyed healing in other MMOs, but I regret to say that it's rather cumbersome in SWTOR. The missing ingredient is mouseover functionality.

 

'course, mouseover healing may not be something that the SWTOR community as a whole cares about, but I'd be willing to bet that atleast a large portion of the healers out there would agree with me; and there's a plethora of other functions that macros serve... probably dont need to discuss the specifics, but there's no doubt that their inclusion into the game is going to be a very positive thing for most players.

 

I know it's been stated that macros would make it into the game at some point post-launch... any chance we could get some specifics of when that might be?

 

I'm nearing end-game with my 'main' and I'd like to heal with that character, but as it stands healing just isn't fun. I suppose I could put that char on hold for a while and just work on alts until mouseover functionality is provided, but that would be undesirable.

 

(and I hope this didn't come off as complaining - the game as a whole is outstanding, it just needs a bit of polish.)

Edited by Bald_Haliaeetus
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Just my opinion but i dont see the need for macro's at all. Im doing just fine without em :) Mainly because i hate having 2 buttons that do everything

 

Second i hope they never introduce mouse over healing makes things too easy imo.

 

Just my 2 cents

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Just my opinion but i dont see the need for macro's at all. Im doing just fine without em :) Mainly because i hate having 2 buttons that do everything

 

Second i hope they never introduce mouse over healing makes things too easy imo.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

How does mouseover casting make things too easy?

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Just my opinion but i dont see the need for macro's at all. Im doing just fine without em :) Mainly because i hate having 2 buttons that do everything

 

Second i hope they never introduce mouse over healing makes things too easy imo.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Odd.

 

The way I see it, macros offer fluidity, conciseness, and efficiency... difficulty isn't a factor; I can function as a healer right now, I just don't enjoy it; it's cumbersome.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by having two buttons that do everything; macros would not cause that, but if you disagree feel free to elaborate.

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We need macros and addons pretty bad. Addons is hard to add, but macros I would expect at some sooner point we will have.

 

Until then, I'm getting out my Nostromo. Far too many necessary macroes in here (Flechette Round + Backblast, as a trivial one).

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How does mouseover casting make things too easy?

 

Poor choice of words,

What i wanted to imply was its a convenience feature

 

And whats bad about that you may ask ? Well it generally starts a chain request for more convenience features some of which i have no doubt will make the game too easy. Furthermore im not risking the chance that adding convenience features ends up taking priority over actual needed features / content updates / bug fixes.

 

As long convenience features remain just that ie "priority 2" that in no way influences the the gameplay difficulty / mechanics id be fine with em but the odds that they will stay that way are slim

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Odd.

 

The way I see it, macros offer fluidity, conciseness, and efficiency... difficulty isn't a factor; I can function as a healer right now, I just don't enjoy it; it's cumbersome.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by having two buttons that do everything; macros would not cause that, but if you disagree feel free to elaborate.

 

Look at the post below yours "Flechette Round + Backblast", macros allow multiple abilities to be qued which in PvE ( for dps not tanks or healers though ) can just mean stand in one place and spam the same button that encompasses your entire rotation

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Look at the post below yours "Flechette Round + Backblast", macros allow multiple abilities to be qued which in PvE ( for dps not tanks or healers though ) can just mean stand in one place and spam the same button that encompasses your entire rotation

 

Ah, I see your concern. I wouldn't worry about that; macros will be capable of whatever BW allows them to be. I'm about 100% that BW wouldn't want us to be able to put all of our abilities into a macro, to be executed in perfect rotation.

 

I hate to use the 'W' word, as it sparks a curious amount of hatred around here, but the macro setup I'm most familiar with is WoW's. In that system, you could only execute two abilities at once if one of them was off the GCD, and if I recall correctly, 'reactive' abilities were an exception - you couldn't just throw them in a macro with some other commonly used ability and expect it to go off as soon as it's able.

 

Furthermore, the macros could not make combat decisions for you; if you tried macroing an ability with a similar ability with some kind of special requirement, like being behind your target, the macro would fail; they want the player to decide when to use those abilities, not the macro.

 

I would expect similar limitations from BW; I agree that we should not be able to macro all of our abilities into two buttons. xD

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Why's that?

 

Bc i want this game to have an even playing field. If they allow macros people can just create one hit win buttons. I dont want to be forced to use macros to have an even playing field.

 

Im all for UI customization though.

Edited by Toweleeeie
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Bc i want this game to have an even playing field. If they allow macros people can just create one hit win buttons. I dont want to be forced to use macros to have an even playing field.

 

Im all for UI customization though.

 

I don't think you have to worry about macros leading to one-hit-win buttons... or are you being comical/sarcastic? it's difficult to tell sometimes with written communication.

 

Do you have any serious concerns?

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From healing perspective mouse over healing can help alot but UI customization is a must that is needed to better complete our work. Macros i dunno, they can help but if you choose wisely your abilities i'm sure you can bind them easily.

 

What is really needed imho is a better, WAY BETTER, buff/debuff tracking system...

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The Atari had a joystick and a single button. The NES had 4 directions and 2 action buttons. A PS3 has a thumb-stick, 4 directions, 4 bumpers, and 4 action buttons, and it even has a button that lets you turn off the system without getting up (thats a convenient feature that only the latest iteration of console games share, does that make it a crutch?) When all we had was that controller with 4 directions and 2 buttons, did we miss the additional buttons? No, because we didn't know any better.

 

Controls evolve just the same way that games get better, more advanced, and more engaging. It is, without a doubt, more efficient the fewer mouse clicks/button presses you have to make to get the job done.

 

Why do so many people have a problem with this concept?

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Bc i want this game to have an even playing field. If they allow macros people can just create one hit win buttons. I dont want to be forced to use macros to have an even playing field.

 

Im all for UI customization though.

 

I don't want macros so I can create "win" buttons. I want macros so I can make one button hit my stealth, my stealth level buff and my cleanse skill. It wouldn't give me an advantage, I can hit those abilities quickly with my super mouse, but it would save me space on my crowded quickbar. Macros that let you play the game afk (like SWG) and macros that make things more efficient (what most people here want) are two different things.

Edited by captainscarbeard
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I'd like the ability to macro two abilities togheter in a cast sequence macro. Two ability limit isnt game breaking and will save me a lot of keybinds. And yeah i'm doing perfectly fine as is but i'm all out of hotbar space.

 

I would also like to be able to macro chat messages.

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