Updated on 2/28/14.

1. Custom Question:

Carnage revolves around the ability to anticipate, plan, and execute periods of burst damage. However, carnage suffers from an inability to fully capitalize on Gore windows due to two distinct issues: Slaughter RNG and the excessive susceptibility to stuns/knockbacks. Due to the RNG design of Slaughter, any unplanned Ataru strikes (i.e those not originating from Massacre) have the potential to replace an available Gore with a Gore from Slaughter, essentially denying a second burst DPS window. Allowing the Gore from Slaughter to activate only when Gore is on cooldown, for instance, would resolve some of the negative aspects of RNG. Second, Gore windows are exceedingly vulnerable to stuns and knockbacks, especially in PVP where these counters are more readily available than Gore itself. Adding a level of protection to Gore windows would further encourage the use of Carnage in competitive PVP and, subsequently, would require a more skillful use of stuns and knockback counters. For example, Gore could be altered so that it remains as a temporary static buff until direct damage is initiated, at which point the 4.5 second window would commence. This would increase the damage potential of carnage and would require players to use stuns and knockbacks more skillfully.

Is this inability to fully capitalize on Gore windows intentional and, if so, what is the reasoning behind this decision?

2. PVE Question:

According to the response given in the Jedi Sentinel forums, the development team stated that Annihilation was intended to be the superior spec for sustained DPS. However, this does not hold true when comparing Annihilation to Carnage and hybrid DPS OPs parses. This discrepancy is due to Annihilation's lack of on demand DPS required with target switches. The developer response in the Jedi Sentinel forums regarding Annihilator stacks and buff duration promises to address some of these issues. However, the community feels that additional changes are required. For example, Annihilate could be improved to do bonus damage on bleeding targets or apply a separate bleed. Furthermore, Annihilation DoTs could feature better protection against cleanses and/or provide better options for application/reapplication, such as a bonus effect added to the Pulverize/Rupture reset mechanic (i.e. Annihilate stacks, cooldown reduction, reduced rage costs, crit rating boost etc).

Does the development team believe that the design of Annihilation as a sustained DPS spec is performing as expected, especially in a PVE/PVP environment that favors burst damage and target switches?

3. PVP Question:

Given the recent changes to the Undying Rage mechanic and the future plans to tone down the AOE damage output of Rage, Marauders are potentially faced with limited options for competitive gameplay. Annihilation greatly suffers from the changes to Undying Rage, as self heals are essentially negated by the backend health cost. Implementing a 3rd party healing debuff with the original front end health cost, for instance, would provide a balance to Undying Rage while keeping Annihilation survivability intact (outside heals are lessened, self heals are not penalized). Furthermore, the changes proposed in patch 2.7 undermine the viability of Rage as an AOE specialization. By allowing Shockwaves originating from Force Crush to affect secondary targets, for instance, Rage can provide some potential for AOE damage. As is, Patch 2.7 threatens to transform Rage into a lackluster single target DPS spec. Meanwhile, Annihilation will continue to suffer from DPS ramp up/target switching issues, and diminished survivability due to the Undying Rage changes.

Given the redesign of Undying Rage and the proposed changes to Rage in patch 2.7, can the combat team comment on the future intentions for Marauder specializations, especially as they pertain to performance in competitive gameplay and to the developer comments (see below) regarding AOE based specs?

If Rage/Focus had the best burst damage, the best AoE damage, and the best sustained damage; then there would be very little to no incentive for a Marauder/Sentinel to ever spec anything else. Rage/Focus is the top burst spec for a Marauder/Sentinel, and that is by design. Right now, it is also the top AoE damage spec for Marauders/Sentinels (by design) – but that is something we would like to get away from in the future. Ideally, any damage spec should be able to deal formidable AoE damage when necessary (and should prefer to leave most AoE attacks out of their rotation in a single-target fight). It will take some time to right this ship, as it has already sailed and must come back to port for repairs (so don’t expect Annihilation/Watchman and Carnage/Combat to be pumping out massive AoE DPS or for Rage/Focus to get a huge AoE DPS nerf next patch).

And while I have Bioware's attention...

Since I have been afforded the opportunity to publicly present issues to the combat team, I just wanted to direct some attention to the Petition to Keep Ranked 8v8s. Any comments?

As a Carnage spec that's the only question I feel I can comment on and I got to give it to you point 2 is right on the money for nearly all of our burst damage options. In PvP its stuns, knockbacks, blinds hell even defensive rolls really limit our ability to do any serious (or even non serious) damage. Of course its not just Gore 1 second into Ravage going to be stunned or knocked back. In PvE chances are the boss will teleport or disappear or some other mechanic that makes standing near them impossible to really lower our damage.

That said while Gore is a very useful skill to make carnage dependent upon it seems an over sight, now I don't believe it is as effective as it is intended to be. But equally carnage should have the dps to be able to fight healers and the like rather than just a one skill tree that allows us to by pass armour making us good at fighting Jugs and the like but a lot less so against light armoured healers.

3. (This one is optional as many top PVP/PVE marauders can manage the limited rage)Rage management is tight: Relative to Rage and Annihilation, rage management in Carnage is extremely tight. A slight increase to rage generation would allow Gore windows to be DPS optimized (additional resources for Massacre would yield more Force Scream critical procs). A slight increase to rage generation from Blood Frenzy, for example, would improve the rage management issues associated with carnage.

As I have stated elsewhere, in my opinion it's not the rage management itself that's the issue, but the way it's achieved; through an over-abundance of boring basic attacks. At least for me. It feels boring, I feel feeble while doing it, and I don't like the feeling of having to rely on my basic attack to get things done. Yes, there are some upsides to this mindless (Massacre -->) Assault spam between Gores, but it still feels clunky to me.

I don't know of any other class/spec that uses their basic attacks in their rotation to such a big extent as Carnage does. Granted, this isn't the biggest issue there is, and I believe "Slaughter only proccing while Gore is on CD" trumps this any day of the week, but sometimes it really irks me to have to use it (Assault) so much.

These questions all looks pretty good to me. Just a few minor tweaks that I would add.

Carnage:

1. RNG and Slaughter: Unintended Ataru strikes resulting in a Slaughter proc make Gore overly susceptible to RNG. For example, a force charge can cause Slaughter to proc when Gore is already available. This essentially denies the ability to capitalize on a second Gore window. Slaughter needs to be redesigned so that the second Gore is protected from bad RNG (i.e. activation of Gore through Slaughter can only occur if Gore is on cooldown).

I think I was one of the people who suggested this but someone else suggested that the execute part of slaughter should run on a separate internal cool down. I'm not sure if you were planning on mentioning that but if you were then make sure you do it.

2. Gore windows are easily denied: Knockbacks and stuns are plentiful and tend to overly deny carnage of its ability to capitalize on Gore windows (whereas Rage is essentially unaffected by counters due to its unrootable Obliterate and AOE damage range). Gore windows require an added level of protection to maximize DPS potential (i.e. Gore remains as a static buff until damage is initiated, at which point the 4.5s window commences).

This wasn't mentioned any where else on any other threads I don't believe but it would be a good idea to make sure that ataru procs from gore do not start the 4.5 seconds if the buff is made static. I could see that somewhat defeating the purpose of making the buff static seeing as gore would have a 50 % chance to proc ataru form strikes assuming the massacre buff is up.

3. (This one is optional as many top PVP/PVE marauders can manage the limited rage)Rage management is tight: Relative to Rage and Annihilation, rage management in Carnage is extremely tight. A slight increase to rage generation would allow Gore windows to be DPS optimized (additional resources for Massacre would yield more Force Scream critical procs). A slight increase to rage generation from Blood Frenzy, for example, would improve the rage management issues associated with carnage.

It may be good to be a little more specific with how we want to change it. I would say to restore the 1 rage refunded every time a stack of berserk is used up. This time though, instead of refunding one rage per massacre, I would say to refund one rage on every attack. This would cause certain abilities to generate more rage (such as auto attack building 3 rage, force charge building 4, and battering assault building 7) and other abilities to effectively cost less (like how massacre effectively only used to cost 1 rage with berserk up). I say effectively here because it would require 2 rage to use the ability but it would only cost 1. This is just my opinion but I think it would make rage management much easier without making it super easy.

Annihilation:

1. Limited application of bleeds makes Annihilation more susceptible to DPS loss due to cleansed DoTs. Some degree of DoT protection (i.e. cleanse protection during berserk, etc) is needed.

I think a good way to fix this would be to make it so that only sorcs and sages can cleanse our DoTs. Right now the only actual force DoT damage that can be done is by other sorcs and sages. I believe that the DoTs we do are physical damage, so making annihilation's DoTs do force damage would help us out because the tech cleansers could not cleanse our DoTs, and this makes sorcs and sages better because now they are the only class capable of cleansing our DoTs.

The question about the rage spec looked good to me.

3. (This one is optional as many top PVP/PVE marauders can manage the limited rage)Rage management is tight: Relative to Rage and Annihilation, rage management in Carnage is extremely tight. A slight increase to rage generation would allow Gore windows to be DPS optimized (additional resources for Massacre would yield more Force Scream critical procs). A slight increase to rage generation from Blood Frenzy, for example, would improve the rage management issues associated with carnage.

I do not think this should be removed because, with effort, this problem can be overcome as you said yourself. In addition, any increase in rage production would increase Carnage's dps, which would require re-balancing of all abilities, which may affect other specs and the time for this could be better spent on other issues. Because of these reasons, I believe the issue with Carnage's rage production is minimal and should not take the place of other more important questions.

 

Modified Annihilation question:

 

In addition to the ramp-up/downtime DPS issues stated in the official sentinel question, Annihilation suffers from several utility based issues which make it a relatively undesirable PVP spec.

 

1. Limited application of bleeds makes Annihilation more susceptible to DPS loss due to cleansed DoTs. Some degree of DoT protection (i.e. cleanse protection during berserk, etc) is needed.

Why are annihilation DoTs so easy to dispel? Because they are neither force nor tech but physical and can be dispelled by all ACs that have purge. With marauder being force-user class it would make more sense if their DoTs would be classified the same as madness DoTs and require sorcerer/sage to dispel.

I think these are good questions. The overall strong PvP focus to all of them is quite welcome after my mostly PvE-justified questions. My only comment is that the phrasing should probably be made more compact. The Sorc and Vanguard questions this month were multiple paragraphs with stories, anecdotes, and more. I think that distracts from the main point of the question. Keep it simple and concise. Focus on the exact issue, give a bit of justification or exemplification, maybe make a suggestion, and ask (perhaps multiple) questions around that issue.

Yes, I agree that they need to be concise. I just listed our ideas so that people could see and handpick things they want to alter/suggest. In other words, I provide a small intro introducing the problem, list the proof/suggested changes, and ask the question. Once we nail down what we want I will make them more concise.

As I have stated elsewhere, in my opinion it's not the rage management itself that's the issue, but the way it's achieved; through an over-abundance of boring basic attacks. At least for me. It feels boring, I feel feeble while doing it, and I don't like the feeling of having to rely on my basic attack to get things done. Yes, there are some upsides to this mindless (Massacre -->) Assault spam between Gores, but it still feels clunky to me.

 

I don't know of any other class/spec that uses their basic attacks in their rotation to such a big extent as Carnage does. Granted, this isn't the biggest issue there is, and I believe "Slaughter only proccing while Gore is on CD" trumps this any day of the week, but sometimes it really irks me to have to use it (Assault) so much.

Yes, thats why I listed rage management an optional. I have spoken to several top level PVE/PVP carnage marauders and they all maintain that the resource pools are fine. However, they aren't saying its easy either.

These questions all looks pretty good to me. Just a few minor tweaks that I would add.

 

 

Carnage:

 

 

I think I was one of the people who suggested this but someone else suggested that the execute part of slaughter should run on a separate internal cool down. I'm not sure if you were planning on mentioning that but if you were then make sure you do it.

I did mention it indirectly by saying "activation of Gore through Slaughter...". I can easily change this to directly state that execute should be unaffected.

This wasn't mentioned any where else on any other threads I don't believe but it would be a good idea to make sure that ataru procs from gore do not start the 4.5 seconds if the buff is made static. I could see that somewhat defeating the purpose of making the buff static seeing as gore would have a 50 % chance to proc ataru form strikes assuming the massacre buff is up.

Good point. We will have to find a solution to this. Perhaps a simple change where "damage from Ataru attacks don't start the Gore window"...something of that nature. While we are on this point, are there any other residual attacks that could make a static Gore window start unintentionally? I can only think of chance on hit relics and rupture (lol).

It may be good to be a little more specific with how we want to change it. I would say to restore the 1 rage refunded every time a stack of berserk is used up. This time though, instead of refunding one rage per massacre, I would say to refund one rage on every attack. This would cause certain abilities to generate more rage (such as auto attack building 3 rage, force charge building 4, and battering assault building 7) and other abilities to effectively cost less (like how massacre effectively only used to cost 1 rage with berserk up). I say effectively here because it would require 2 rage to use the ability but it would only cost 1. This is just my opinion but I think it would make rage management much easier without making it super easy.

We have to reach a consensus about the rage management issues first I think. The top carnage parsers have told me they have no problem with the rage management. But, a lot of people are expressing their problems with it as well. Discuss.

The question about the rage spec looked good to me.

Thanks...although I feel like the question needs more substance.

Good point. We will have to find a solution to this. Perhaps a simple change where "damage from Ataru attacks don't start the Gore window"...something of that nature. While we are on this point, are there any other residual attacks that could make a static Gore window start unintentionally? I can only think of chance on hit relics and rupture (lol).

Or deadly saber if someone went hybrid (no idea why anyone would want to do this though...). A good way to make it may be where it only starts off your direct damaging attacks (so only when you activate an ability).

We have to reach a consensus about the rage management issues first I think. The top carnage parsers have told me they have no problem with the rage management. But, a lot of people are expressing their problems with it as well. Discuss.

Good point. Personally I think the rage management is fine as well but from what I have seen a lot of others do not think so.

Thanks...although I feel like the question needs more substance.

It could defiantly be polished up but I just meant the general idea of it looked good.

We have to reach a consensus about the rage management issues first I think. The top carnage parsers have told me they have no problem with the rage management. But, a lot of people are expressing their problems with it as well. Discuss.

I think most people's gripe with Carnage rage management is that Assault has to be used so much. It's not a problem, as Carnage clearly deals enough damage to be competitive, but it feels clunky/unsatisfying to play compared to when Massacre under Berserk only cost 1 rage. I'm not sure how to solve this without overpowering the spec (in PvE) though.

I think most people's gripe with Carnage rage management is that Assault has to be used so much. It's not a problem, as Carnage clearly deals enough damage to be competitive, but it feels clunky/unsatisfying to play compared to when Massacre under Berserk only cost 1 rage. I'm not sure how to solve this without overpowering the spec (in PvE) though.

what is pve? never heard of it, buff carnage. No it does not do enough damage to be competitive. -___-

On the topic of Watchman/Annihilation...

I know you seem very committed to reserving this for the PVP question..which I find disappointing, since I feel Tam did largely the same thing.

I would note that, in discussing Carnage/Combat, it was stated that Watchman/Annihilation is intended to be the highest sustained damage in a long fight. ATM, this is not true. Watchman/Annihilation is underperforming, and the top DPS for the class are -all- Combat/Carnage - even over a sustained period of time.

This is my largest concern - that the spec intended to be the highest sustained damage is not. I feel like we have plenty of utility in PVP (transcendence is massively valuable, even if it doesn't have the speed of Combat/Carnage. Pacify is still useful, as is our 6 second interrupt. Force Camo is insanely useful, not only to escape but also to deceive). That, despite underperforming compared to what is intended, Watchman/Annihilation is being reserved for PVP questions by both reps is a little disappointing.

Also, based on recent reading, I'm beginning to think I'm the only one who still plays Watchman/Annihilation..

Question #3: My mara has been overpowered for 1 year and 8 months. When can we get nerfed?

Marauders need a buff, for sure.

Yes, thats why I listed rage management an optional. I have spoken to several top level PVE/PVP carnage marauders and they all maintain that the resource pools are fine. However, they aren't saying its easy either.

I have absolutely no problems managing Rage in Carnage spec. I'm certainly not one of the top parsers, but I can get a 3k in sub-72 gear. You just have to know where your primary drain moments are, how severe those drains are likely to be given a) the state of your procs, and b) the state of your Fury stacks. Between Gore windows, just don't use two consecutive Rage spenders unless you're trying to burn Rage in anticipation of Battering Assault coming off CD. Don't use a Rage spender (especially not Massacre) immediately before a Gore window unless you're absolutely swimming in Rage (10+).

Really, it's not that difficult. It does require a lot of Assault though, which is slightly annoying. Basically, the filler phase between Gore windows looks like this:

Massacre > Assault > Massacre > Assault > Rupture (assuming Execute proc'd) > Assault > Dual Saber Throw > Gore …

Very exciting.

I'd love to see a buff in this area, but frankly, the spec simply cannot sustain a buff of any magnitude. It would have to be countered by a very severe nerf somewhere else. Carnage is 100% resource bound (the opposite of Rage spec, which is 100% cooldown bound). Adding more resources (which would be required to remove Assaults) would increase DPS dramatically. That's simply not an option since, as others have pointed out, Carnage is already the top parsing spec in PvE.

Q3 Why remove ranked????? Or rather why don't you remove Nim operation.

Because only Marauders play ranked? If not, then it's not a class-specific issue. Take it elsewhere.

On the topic of Watchman/Annihilation...

 

I know you seem very committed to reserving this for the PVP question..which I find disappointing, since I feel Tam did largely the same thing.

 

I would note that, in discussing Carnage/Combat, it was stated that Watchman/Annihilation is intended to be the highest sustained damage in a long fight. ATM, this is not true. Watchman/Annihilation is underperforming, and the top DPS for the class are -all- Combat/Carnage - even over a sustained period of time.

 

This is my largest concern - that the spec intended to be the highest sustained damage is not. I feel like we have plenty of utility in PVP (transcendence is massively valuable, even if it doesn't have the speed of Combat/Carnage. Pacify is still useful, as is our 6 second interrupt. Force Camo is insanely useful, not only to escape but also to deceive). That, despite underperforming compared to what is intended, Watchman/Annihilation is being reserved for PVP questions by both reps is a little disappointing.

 

Also, based on recent reading, I'm beginning to think I'm the only one who still plays Watchman/Annihilation..

Please remember that labeling the questions as PVP or PVE is merely designed to ensure both sides of the game are represented. So far everything we have suggested has both PVP and PVE in mind.

As far as annihilation being the highest sustained damage, KBN addressed this issue in the sentinel forums by suggesting changes to the ramp-up/downtime dps. I am confident that he nailed the issues with annihilation and the proposed changes will indeed restore the spec to a level of dominant sustained dps. It doesn't really matter that the question was labeled for PVP. Both worlds can agree that the damage needs to be increased.

I agree that Rage/Focus management from Carnage/Combat is not an issue - but your sources nailed it, its close.

Where the complaints are if you aren't mindful of your Rage/Focus, you can screw yourself out of rage needed during a gore window. A lot of people don't realize you need/have to use just regular Assault in this spec - whereas in Anni/Watchman, its rare I need to use it.

PvP wise, it is the most rage starved spec. I don't even run enraged slash in smash spec and I can't remember the last time I used assault in smash, but Combat/Carnage I have to.

If anything, if they added the rage bonus like we have in smash spec from berserk, I think it would clear it up nicely in both PvP and PvE.

Please remember that labeling the questions as PVP or PVE is merely designed to ensure both sides of the game are represented. So far everything we have suggested has both PVP and PVE in mind.

 

As far as annihilation being the highest sustained damage, KBN addressed this issue in the sentinel forums by suggesting changes to the ramp-up/downtime dps. I am confident that he nailed the issues with annihilation and the proposed changes will indeed restore the spec to a level of dominant sustained dps. It doesn't really matter that the question was labeled for PVP. Both worlds can agree that the damage needs to be increased.

I admit I could be wrong at this, but I believe that, even ramp-up time is considered (6 Juyo and 4 Annihilate are presumed from the start), five minute parses would show Combat/Carnage being superior to Watchman/Annihilate. While the buildup is certainly frustrating, I'm not sure eliminating it entirely fixes the issue. Especially if the RNG factor is removed from Combat/Carnage, as that will severely up DPS due to the reliability of procs (unless some nerfs are put in place to balance the increased reliability).

I'll agree Watchman is dysfunctional in PVP.. but given their stated goals for it, it's hard to imagine it ever being very good. 'Burst' is the name of the game in PVP (hence the abundance of 'smash monkeys') - sustained, long term damage (which, as stated, is the entire goal of the class) would seem counter productive. From experience, it sort of works.. I've got valor rank 86 and used to be a regular PVPer, until I realized it was just making me an angry, hateful person. But I wasn't -bad- as a Watchman.. I could still top the DPS back in the War Hero days. Perhaps it's changed now.

I admit I could be wrong at this, but I believe that, even ramp-up time is considered (6 Juyo and 4 Annihilate are presumed from the start), five minute parses would show Combat/Carnage being superior to Watchman/Annihilate. While the buildup is certainly frustrating, I'm not sure eliminating it entirely fixes the issue. Especially if the RNG factor is removed from Combat/Carnage, as that will severely up DPS due to the reliability of procs (unless some nerfs are put in place to balance the increased reliability).

I should parse pre-proc'd with full Annihilate and Juyo stacks to test that theory. I'm almost positive that a 300 second parse would see a DRAMATIC improvement if I opened the fight that way, especially if I also had full Fury, Frenzy available and Bloodthirst ready.