So last raid me and my buddies spent an entire 3 hours of wiping on Zorn and Toth. We had a vague idea of what to expect but didn't check out all the details in advance.

 

Throughout the raid it seemed 90% of the time was spent discussing various positioning ala "You must stand 25m from X but over 30m from Y at all times", "Tank A please move 2m to the left", "healer you're too close to the boss", "ZOMG tank is out of range" etc. etc.

 

It felt like we were trying to navigate a mine-field rather than fighting a boss.

 

Now I may be wrong but something tells me that can't be right. I know position etc. can be important but is it really THAT important in this stupid fight? Is it really that big of a deal exactly how far away from a boss someone is?

 

We run with 2 melees, 2 ranged DPS, 2 tanks and 2 healers. Any pointers would be helpful because even after watching videos and reading guides, the boss seems entirely stupid.

Edited April 21, 2012 by LexiCazam
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Found it a really fun fight overall. Melee dps didnt as much:P

 

How we killed. Was 2 tanks pull a boss to their respective sides at the wide part of the canyon. When they move ( the bosses) tanks switch bosses. The switch over is important and needs to be pulled off pretty fast to save 1 tank getting mega hit.

 

DPS focus on one tanks target during thefight, so the damage betweem both bosses will stay around equal.

 

DONT focus 1 boss, Focus one tanks target, irregardless which one they are tanking.

 

Rest of the group stays in the middle. and of course move from the red circle^^

 

Send me a PM if anythings not clear.

Mine field. I get it.

 

Anyway, I think you are over analyzing it. Range should be at max range. This is true on many fights. They can't be tanked next to each other. This is a unique mechanic for this fight. That's all of the positioning required which doesn't seem any more "frickle" than, say, Karagga.

 

Your tank didn't need to move "2m to the right" he needed to move away from the other boss. If he moved 50m away he'd probably be out of healing range, which is always bad.

 

Make sure your tanks don't aoe taunt both bosses, if you run a sniper he should be on the right side to bubble rocks, and with 2 melee dps I'd split them up as they will be more taxing on healers. Otherwise it's just clean swaps and not standing in red circles.

It can't be that simple,

 

we wasted 18 tries and must have talked ~30 minutes about positioning.

 

I'm pretty sure there's more to the fight than simply "tankswap" and "avoid red circles" because even in the better tries our healers were "ooming" at roughly ~30%.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Dee-Jay

It can't be that simple,

 

we wasted 18 tries and must have talked ~30 minutes about positioning.

 

I'm pretty sure there's more to the fight than simply "tankswap" and "avoid red circles".

 

In story mode? No there isn't. In story mode everyone but the tanks can literally stand still and DPS/heal until the red circles appear on the ground.

Watch a few videos from different class perspectives, it will help a lot. And if people arn't sure if they're close etc or far enough etc, use the range indicator when you target an enemy, next to their name and hp etc.

It can't be that simple,

 

we wasted 18 tries and must have talked ~30 minutes about positioning.

 

I'm pretty sure there's more to the fight than simply "tankswap" and "avoid red circles" because even in the better tries our healers were "ooming" at roughly ~30%.

 

In story mode, it is that simple. You can down it by ignoring almost all the mechanics in story mode depending on gear level.

 

Put Toth at the gate to next area, put Zorn at the two trees on the left. Position groups accordingly so only the healer and tank gets fearful. 90% leap/fearful happens. 80% other mechanics, 70% leap/fearful, rinse/repeat.

 

Only the tanks and healers need to switch when fearful comes out because the rest of the raid will not get it. Simple.

Umm story mode is hard? We didn't even tank swap on either mode. I tanked the fearless boss on my assassin the whole time.

I think you have a few issues, if the healers are oom at 30% of the bossfight.

 

People have to move out of the circles. After the healer-nerf, it`s not as easy, as it used to be.

And you should prepare the raid with videoguides atleast, if you don`t wont to wipe a few hours learning the fight.

 

Here is one, for example:

http://swttor.blogspot.com/2012/03/swtor-pve-explosive-conflict-zorn-and.html

Edited April 22, 2012 by Silberfalke

If you get the positioning down the rest of the fight is easy, even on hard mode. Just stand in the right places.

If you get the positioning down the rest of the fight is easy, even on hard mode. Just stand in the right places.

 

Well that's exactly what I was asking. Is positioning really that important and if so, how and why?

Well that's exactly what I was asking. Is positioning really that important and if so, how and why?

Well, you should know the answer to that... It is important because apparently its the reason your group cant down it. Believe it or not you DO have to kinda learn how to do these bosses before you will down them. I wonder what some of these people would have done in wow lol.

Okay not an expert in this field but trundled in the other night to have a poke and it's very much like a lot of bosses - once you understand it you do think "doh" why did it take us so many wipes!

 

It is also a fight that is very position heavy if you are not very well geared, and is particularly harsh on under-geared melee classes.

 

However that being said it is doable but does need people to be on their toes.

 

Tanking positions are the least important - as someone suggested already, by the right of the cave and left in the trees is where we finally settled on.

 

Tanks need to be quick on their agro swap as is not a lot of room for error if they mess up.

 

Melee DPS stay on Zorn (or whoever the boss is on the right hand side when you enter is - i got intimate with him as the lightning ). Depending on the class makeup ranged should have no problem staying between 25 - 30 meters - if they do they just need to learn not to I'm afraid. What we did to help was put a target marker on the ranged DPS so that it was easier to visually get bearings for the healers and other ranged if they were straying too far. With practice this wouldn't be needed but did mean we could create a GPS style triangle safe-zone at all times between the two bosses.

 

Lastly the enrage timer is 5mins (some places have mentioned 4:30 which unless my stopwatch is broken is not accurate) but even with a mostly Columi geared group we surprisingly had a good amount of time to spare so no need to get "loose" and panic towards the end of the fight - especially as you do have to keep a good selection alive to kill the Champion who jumps down after.

 

Whilst learning the mechanics its also helpful to assign different people things to keep an eye on.

We assigned a ranged DPS "spotter" to keep an eye out for the orange "Mental Anguish" debuff, another ranged DPS to act as a "spotter" if it looked like someone was edging into the 25m range and another ranged DPS acted as the "spotter" to coordinate the DPS on the bosses and alert each tank of when one was approaching the "leap" stage.

Our tanks were also very communicative about verbalising that they had picked up agro and checking positioning each time with the healers.

 

Appreciate to all those Rakata geared guys this may all seem completley OTT but just sharing some tips that we found advantageous, especially as we're quite a casual raid guild and might offer help to those similar guilds.

It can't be that simple,

 

we wasted 18 tries and must have talked ~30 minutes about positioning.

 

I'm pretty sure there's more to the fight than simply "tankswap" and "avoid red circles" because even in the better tries our healers were "ooming" at roughly ~30%.

 

Storymode or Hardmode?

In Storymode your healers should be able to heal through some mechanics.

Storymode is very forgivable if you make errors.

 

In Hardmode positioning and standing on max range is ESSENTIAL, else people take to much damage and your healers get a serious problem with their force/etc.

 

In our best tries (all range dps, day 1) we got them several time to 5-10 % each and stil had a good chunk of force. Then enrage hits because our dps probably suck and jea^^ wipe.

 

On our second day (1 melee rest range dps) both healers got in serious problems with keeping people alive and their force. It was not just the melee, everyone made mistakes and took aoes ect.

We changed our positioning a little bit and i am certain if we play with all range dps again und everyone has a good day this boss finaly wil be dead.

 

But yes, out raidlead wants to try T&Z the next time with 2 melee dps, dont ask me why^^

It can't be that simple,

 

we wasted 18 tries and must have talked ~30 minutes about positioning.

 

I'm pretty sure there's more to the fight than simply "tankswap" and "avoid red circles" because even in the better tries our healers were "ooming" at roughly ~30%.

 

 

 

How well geared are your tanks, and healers? It's certainly a gear check fight.

 

To be honest, on Story Mode we don't even have our DPS switch targets until near the end. We put our melee on the one that leaps. (Zoth, I think? I always have to refer to a cheat sheet for their names). That way they never get hit by the leap. Range stay on the other. (Assuming you run with 2 melee and 2 ranged DPS. If you're running with at 3 or 4 melee dps....this fight will be a headache and will require some extra Hokey Pokey.)

I actually didn't find this fight to be too bad as melee, if you stack melee on whichever boss is on the right hand side throughout the fight they most likely won't have to deal with the enrage (just the way the timing works out).

 

I think the best way to do it is to have two tank "positions" that the bosses are always tanked at, far enough away that they don't power up. Healers and ranged at max range somewhere in between and all melee on the right hand boss at all times. The only real damage you have to deal with is the 2-4k from the bosses AoE type abilities and stomp when they jump to each other. Tanks swap to the other target when they jump and the tank picking up the boss that jumped will run over to the jump spot, taunt, and run back to his position.

 

They always jump to the left first so until 70% the melee don't even have anything to worry about. Happens again at 30% but everyone should be well aware thats happening and thats more than far enough apart to keep things from getting hectic.

 

This is one of those fights you wipe at above 85% over and over again, then everyone suddenly grasps the mechanics and they go down easy.

Obviously common sense and curtsy are too much for you. If you having nothing to say...don't say anything.

 

I think he was making a joke, that's something the boss says during the fight

 

@OP: I've run this fight with a few different groups. With one group (our guild's A group) it was super easy and simple (literally just "don't stand in stupid and stay far away". Everyone was always at 50% plus. WIth the other group, it was a nightmare, and people fell like (wait for it) *snap* that! It may simply be a matter of gear that is the issue. PM for more info if you want.

Why do you keep asking a question you have several answers.

 

Keep them apart, tank swap after the leap, face them away from the raid, don't stand in the stupid.

How does the Fearful mechanic actually work? How does it get applied?

 

"When Toth jumps" is an insufficient answer. There's much more specifics than that, and it's those that matter.

How is "at the jump" insufficient? It certainly proved sufficient for my op group. Every time they jump swap targets; so long as you were only within 25-30 meters of the one you've been dpsing you'll never have trouble with the debuff. It's not even a huge deal as long as you're on your toes; I accidentally stood too close to the far boss and got fearful at the same time we were swapping to the fearful boss and it still only took me 1 grav round to be absolutely sure I needed to simply swap back to the previous target for a while, focused op fire be damned.

You're reply doesn't even say which boss you need to be 25-30 from and when. Those are are specifics this thread is lacking.

My guild's problem on 16-man HM was that when we downed Toth and had about 3% on Zorn, he one-shotted the entire raid. No enrage, no nothing. He literally wiped EVERYTHING with 24k HP left. I know the soft enrage, but this happened not 15" after Toth died. Is this supposed to be happening ?

You're reply doesn't even say which boss you need to be 25-30 from and when. Those are are specifics this thread is lacking.

 

All of them. At all times.

 

It felt like we were trying to navigate a mine-field rather than fighting a boss.

 

.

I really love this description of the fight. It's so true.

To clear up a few confusions..

 

1) This is not a gear check. One of our healers was mostly columi as well as two of our DPS in 16 man, and we still beat the enrage timer by over 20 seconds. If "gear" seems to be the issue at all, I'd counter first with your positioning is probably wrong, and if that's not the case then it's a skill issue.

2) Your dps should never have to move. If done right, your melee have to stop for the jump and wait for the boss to come back, and your range only have to move for giant red circles in sonic pulse phase. Rest of the fight is stationary for everyone but tanks.

3) The fearful debuff is not random. Our range never get it unless they make a mistake. "I somehow got the debuff" is a poor excuse, it means you were in the wrong place. With proper positioning you can DPS the whole time without fear of getting the debuff ever.

4) When toth dies, soon thereafter Zorn gives a huge screech that hits everyone for 15-18k who are within 30 yards. If you live through this he's harmless until hard enrage or til about 15 seconds later when he screeches again. When you kill zorn first, Toth starts pounding the ground over and over again gradually doing damage to the raid til he dies or they die. It's pick your poison. If your whole raid is topped off, then kill Toth first and deal with Zorns screech.