55HM tactics change a bit, so people should remember what they did a long ago :-)

and many things start to hurt much more - DoTs, stuns, no CC and so on

it puzzles

game starts to be more exacting to mechanics not just overDPS and overHeal

you should learn how to play

and it's good!

as for your problem - try to cooperate

teach people, pass your know-how :-)

that's a MMO game, it's about interaction!

I'm not sure I really understand what people would expect in regards to this. Whether you can get gear before HMs or not, you're going to have players that are bad. There's no way around this. Everyone would love to be able to always queue up with skilled players in both PvE and PvP, but MMOs are about accessibility and allowing as close to as many players see as much content as possible. It's just not plausible otherwise. I'd rather have a bad player in decent gear than a bad player in bad gear.

I guess one fix would be to add more normal mode flashpoints, but people have proven over and over that most people will skip them, and the few people who don't are usually the ones that *could*. People really just need to learn to take the time to help other players learn. It won't help everyone, there will always be lost causes...but a lot of times I see people "explain" fights incorrectly when they don't understand the fight mechanics themselves, then blame someone else.

Bioware addressed the complaint from the begining where the only way to get pve gear was to do hm's.

getting raid gear for comms from solo dailies is a bad bad bad very bad idea imho

you should be able to buy for comms some gear - implants, relics, may be enhancements for min-max job

but not to lvl through them!

properly geared player must mean skilled and expirinced player!

now it's not the same

The problem doesn't stem from hard modes, the problem stems from making casual players think they are adept at playing the game. Was in a group yesterday with a guy who was wearing the "founder" title and he didn't know what CC was, didn't recognize a CC'd mob, and kept breaking CC every fight. (We eventually kicked him). But the fact that someone who is a FOUNDER (aka been here since the beginning) didn't know this was just so very shocking.

Part of the problem stems in the fact people just don't read. They don't read their skills, they don't read their quests, and they don't read the recommended gear level for operations (I'm looking at you Mr. I'm-in-mostly-level-50-greens-but-I-queued-up-for-SM-TFB-anyways-guy).

The other part of the problem is these people think that every piece of content should be accessible to them no matter what. I blame BioWare for this fully because they don't make it clear that Flashpoints require coordination. Hard Modes require even MORE coordination and being decently geared, and Operations require the most coordination/gear out of them all. BioWare has FAILED to supply this information directly to players and thus they have created the illusion that all players should be able to access it.

Honestly, looking back I actually applaud Blizzard for their attunement quests and massive reputation grinds to get into end-game raids. Because the bad players would never make it past the lengthy attunement requirements or put in the necessary time to grind reputation to raid. BioWare has handed out instant access operations and this is our result...a plethora of inept troglodytes mashing their faces on the keyboard and expecting gear to just be handed to them.

I'm not sure I really understand what people would expect in regards to this. Whether you can get gear before HMs or not, you're going to have players that are bad. There's no way around this. Everyone would love to be able to always queue up with skilled players in both PvE and PvP, but MMOs are about accessibility and allowing as close to as many players see as much content as possible. It's just not plausible otherwise. I'd rather have a bad player in decent gear than a bad player in bad gear.

 

I guess one fix would be to add more normal mode flashpoints, but people have proven over and over that most people will skip them, and the few people who don't are usually the ones that *could*. People really just need to learn to take the time to help other players learn. It won't help everyone, there will always be lost causes...but a lot of times I see people "explain" fights incorrectly when they don't understand the fight mechanics themselves, then blame someone else.

The issue lies in the fact that gear helps cover bad playing. You can "help" a player learn a Fp, but more often than not the other dps is pulling all the weight. If a player doesn't take the time to learn the Fp either through normal modes or reading up on the internet than more than likely they don't understand proper rotations, but they still do ok dmg because of gear and never actually learn their class.

With the old hm's at the begining the only way you got through them was knowing how to play.

Have had a bad weekend of this myself. Healers using forcequake during pulls while the tank dies... we ask if he thought he was dps as I could have respecced and they say no they are heals but they always forcequake a couple times at beginning of pulls.... we ask if they've done the fight before the first boss and hammer station and they say nothing... proceed to die to first boss because healer doesn't cleanse... explain it to him and he complains that he's never had to cleanse on this fight before, we convince him otherwise... doesn't matter some how he can't keep up with heals as the cleanse was to much for his brain to process in between anyway. Maybe it got in the way of his normal rotation of forcequake, forcequake, salvation, forcequake, forcequake, etc so he didn't know what to do.

Tanks that don't guard and can't keep threat on more than one mob.

Tanks and dps that break cc.

people with cc that doesn't know what cc is. Even label some mobs and tell a commando for instance to cc and they stand there dumbfounded and no idea what to do.

Tanks that spend the entire FP scavenging droids and than breaking down parts in between pulls.... please craft on your own time thanks. This was just one specific person but spending 30 seconds between pulls so the idiot can scavenge every droid in hammer station and break down stuff he crafts in between was ridiculous lol.

I'm not sure I really understand what people would expect in regards to this. Whether you can get gear before HMs or not, you're going to have players that are bad. There's no way around this.

I don't understand either. Kinda ming boggling tbh. If people aren't geared for the hm "omg, dood ur gear sux !!" and we will have complains regarding how badly geared players are and how hard is to complete a flashpoint because of it

I'd rather have a bad player in decent gear than a bad player in bad gear.

I bet everyone does.

The issue lies in the fact that gear helps cover bad playing. You can "help" a player learn a Fp, but more often than not the other dps is pulling all the weight. If a player doesn't take the time to learn the Fp either through normal modes or reading up on the internet than more than likely they don't understand proper rotations, but they still do ok dmg because of gear and never actually learn their class.

 

With the old hm's at the begining the only way you got through them was knowing how to play.

You are right, but at the same time it's hard to support making FPs more difficult to try and force players to get better. If someone is too lazy to learn a fight or improve themselves on their own time, they probably won't bother regardless. From a design point of view, FPs almost have to be balanced between difficulty in order to make people learn and accessibility to make them worth doing. Every time a game makes entry level dungeons and flashpoints difficult they get more complaints than praise (although that's pretty much true about anything). Skilled players will end up simply grouping with their own guild or not doing them at all, and unskilled players will just continue queueing group finder over and over and blaming everyone else for their fails, making the quality of group finder so terrible that no one can use it anymore. In general, Flashpoints should be considered the lowest tier of content, even lower than Story Mode Operations. They *need* to be accessible to bad players, although I do agree that I wish they forced players to improve. I am glad that they are finally introducing bosses that *require* cleanses and interrupts. I wish more CC were required, but that's difficult to implement because not every group will have those abilities.

In response to WoW's attunements and entrance restrictions, I personally loved them as well. The problem was that in the end it caused more problems than it solved. Easy attunements simply became an annoyance and a waste of time to do after you finish it on your main, and long/difficult attunements meant that serious players struggled to get them done on all their alts, and they were rarely more than just a timesink -- none of the WoW attunements really required any significant amount of skill to complete. iLvL restrictions could be easily bluffed by players who didn't actually meet them, and for more skilled players they simply became an unnecessary hassle for alts.

The best solution -- in my opinion -- is to continue with the Flashpoints tier system they implemented with the Rakghoul storyline. Pre-nerf Lost Island was a pretty decent challenge for group finder, and because it largely rewarded similar rewards to normal group finder you didn't have as many terribles queueing into it (although no system was perfect).

You can do the lvl 55 HM fairly comfortably with the 148 gear from the lvl 50 FPs. Also, most of the fights have minimal mechanics to deal with. Usually just not standing in stupid stuff and only a couple bosses require any urgent dispelling. Just 5 stacks of Laser and Crushing Affliction off the top of my head.

The "bad" players won't be bad forever (hopefully). 1 issue here is the agonizingly long queue times. Starting off as DPS is the safest option for new player, however they must wait an hour or so in the queue line. Healers get medium queue times, sometimes almost instant if they are lucky. A tank can get an instant queue, gear up in a day or two and then have no incentive to do FP again.

Possible solutions: Cross Realm Group FInder or more incentive to queue.

2 comms per boss is pretty measly.

Pugs are always hit and miss but the I'm seeing too many players in 55 HM's with appropriate item level gear acting arrogant on chat and refusing to understand the mechanics of the MMO. It could be that the regular FP's are too easy.

yesterday i run HM50 False Emperor in 55 group

i was the less geared one - with 66-69 merc healer

DPS were almost full 72

and we 2 times got Unlimited Power which killed DPS and me

and they demand for combat revive when everybody knows that medcenter is just at the enter of the throne room

and then we hit enrange!

i do not understand how that could be with such gear

do they managed never run false emperor before!?

yesterday i run HM50 False Emperor in 55 group

i was the less geared one - with 66-69 merc healer

DPS were almost full 72

 

and we 2 times got Unlimited Power which killed DPS and me

and they demand for combat revive when everybody knows that medcenter is just at the enter of the throne room

and then we hit enrange!

 

i do not understand how that could be with such gear

do they managed never run false emperor before!?

I had this same problem. I had just got my new tank up to 50 and wanted to get some xp before hitting makeb. Had a couple 55's and a 53 along with me. First problem was they didn't know what to do with the ship boss. We almost wipe from the 400% dmg increase and enrage. Next, we wipe on the unlimited power and I blamed myself for not catching the interrupt, but these players were chalking it up to a bug before i could say anything. They weren't paying attention to any of the mechanics (which is crazy since all the lvl 50 hm's have been extremely dumbed down).

Also, to get tanks and healers queueing, I think the game should move to a legacy com system which would only be available from a non premade group finder queue. Players will start playing whichever toon gets a faster que pop if they know they can gear up that way. And honestly, that's what I do anyways. I'll get a bunch of coms on my tank and healer and use legacy gear to transfer to my new toon. Just save a few creds from moding/unmoding.

I had a similar issue while tanking a HM Hammer Station. Now keep in mind my tank is an alt and not BiS, but I am generally able to solo down the first boss in Mando Raiders to about ~10-20% while still range attacking the dogs...so my "tank DPS" is pretty solid. The issue in this particular Hammer Station came at the bonus boss (Asteroid Beast). We had two DPS in mixed 72s and 69s, easily enough to have made this boss a joke. We wiped 4 times to the enrage *at 40% HP*, with the healer helping to DPS. I have no idea what the other two DPS were doing, but I have literally solo DPS'd that boss on a gunslinger in mixed 66s/69s. I really hope that was a wake-up call for them, because that's really just plain sad.

As a side question, are people finding that everyone still wants to clear bonus bosses? Or have people started to switch to preferring to skip in favor of slightly faster runs?

As a side question, are people finding that everyone still wants to clear bonus bosses? Or have people started to switch to preferring to skip in favor of slightly faster runs?

I hate skipping the bonus bosses. Doing them helps everyone learn how to handle them.

And, I just plain hate RUSHING through these 55 HMs. I like to stop and do my scavenging (droid scav if I'm SCAVENGING, critters if I'm BIOANALYSIS) and the amount of mats can be considerable.

As a Shadow tank who had never run FPs prior to hitting 50, I'm always very upfront about my experience in a certain FP. For example, if it's my first time doing one, I make sure to put it out there right at the beginning to (hopefully) avoid the little surprises people are talking about in this thread.

It seems to be working so far; I haven't been vote-kicked yet and haven't failed. The FPs have averaged about 45-60 minutes, which is probably longer than they should, especially for pre-55 normal modes. But if I don't know an area I'd rather be up front about it.

I also ask about bonuses too; reading these forums have helped me know what questions to ask.

As a side question, are people finding that everyone still wants to clear bonus bosses? Or have people started to switch to preferring to skip in favor of slightly faster runs?

my experience is:

in 50HM people skip bonus bosses in most cases in favor for fast run

in 55HM all are glad to kill bonus boss - it's a chance for good gear and crafting materials

i do not understand how that could be with such gear

do they managed never run false emperor before!?

I am asking myself the same question everytime, but I honestly believe that most of these well geared DPS just think they can outgun every mechanic. Even if it is the jumping Rancor on LI, HK-47 in the Foundry or good old Yadira Ban. Maybe they got their gear from being guided through operations, where just doing what a guild officer says is all they need to do. Of course running a HM with people they don't know, don't care about and don't listen to is something else entirely.

I hate skipping the bonus bosses. Doing them helps everyone learn how to handle them.

 

And, I just plain hate RUSHING through these 55 HMs. I like to stop and do my scavenging (droid scav if I'm SCAVENGING, critters if I'm BIOANALYSIS) and the amount of mats can be considerable.

Personally, I'll take either. I like fast runs but I'll take doing bonus bosses as well. The reality is though that most people (and I can't say they're wrong) want fast runs and will get angry with anything else because they feel their time is just as valuable as your time and to stop to do scavenging, bonus bosses or anything else is use of THEIR time they didn't authorize.

Personally, I'll take either. I like fast runs but I'll take doing bonus bosses as well. The reality is though that most people (and I can't say they're wrong) want fast runs and will get angry with anything else because they feel their time is just as valuable as your time and to stop to do scavenging, bonus bosses or anything else is use of THEIR time they didn't authorize.

I enjoy the FPs as well, and generally if no one says otherwise I'll default to clearing for bonus bosses in the new 55s. In lower level ones, I'll clear bonus if it looks like anyone is going for the bonus objects. In some of the level 50 HMs, it doesn't really feel worth it though (aside from LI, never understood skipping that one. Clear two small packs of extra groups and kill an easy boss for easy credits).

As far as people who scavenge or biochem in FPs, it really depends. I don't mind at all, unless it's a tank who is deliberately taking 30+seconds in between each pull. As long as the pace of the run doesn't get screwed up, it's def more profitable.