The Enrage mechanic used in hard mode Flashpoints and Operations only promotes elitistism and forces you to use certain classes over others in order to beat the timer. There has to be better ways to make a boss encounter tough without it one shotting everyone if you don't kill it within a set amount of time.

 

"We would like to take you on our Operation run but we have the min. healers and min tanks needed and since your not DPS you can't come because if we don't kill the boss in a set amount of time we all die"

 

"Sorry we don't take your build on Operations you don't do enough DPS"

 

The Enrage mechanic forces you to use a very specific group of classes and builds... I'm all for challenge but what happen to having fun with your friends and playing classes you enjoy?

 

Bioware if this is the route your going with all end game content then you better put in DPS Meters so we can find out which classes are the best in order to beat the end game content, also will need free AC changes since certain AC's won't do enough DPS in order to do a Operation so some people will need to switch.

 

There's got to be a better design to make things challenging without "Boom your dead for taking 10 seconds to long to kill this boss" To me using enrage mechanic is just lazying designing because you don't want to come up with something original and more fun to make the encounter challenging

The Enrage mechanic used in hard mode Flashpoints and Operations only promotes elitistism and forces you to use certain classes over others in order to beat the timer. There has to be better ways to make a boss encounter tough without it one shotting everyone if you don't kill it within a set amount of time.

 

"We would like to take you on our Operation run but we have the min. healers and min tanks needed and since your not DPS you can't come because if we don't kill the boss in a set amount of time we all die"

 

"Sorry we don't take your build on Operations you don't do enough DPS"

 

The Enrage mechanic forces you to use a very specific group of classes and builds... I'm all for challenge but what happen to having fun with your friends and playing classes you enjoy?

 

Bioware if this is the route your going with all end game content then you better put in DPS Meters so we can find out which classes are the best in order to beat the end game content, also will need free AC changes since certain AC's won't do enough DPS in order to do a Operation so some people will need to switch.

 

There's got to be a better design to make things challenging without "Boom your dead for taking 10 seconds to long to kill this boss" To me using enrage mechanic is just lazying designing because you don't want to come up with something original and more fun to make the encounter challenging

 

I would agree that enrage timers are a crutch for designers when creating complex/difficult fights. Boss reaches 20% health? Enrage. Boss lives for 1:30 seconds? Enrage.

 

It's a very frustrating mechanic because of multiple things:

• There's usually no warning or indication the boss is going to enrage. You just start getting pimp slapped.....hard.
  
• Right now battle rez is worthless in 4 man heroics in boss fights. If any one person dies, that pretty much guarantees that the enrage timer will pop before you kill the boss.
  
• Did I mention that it's a boring mechanic that is a crutch?
  

Edited January 5, 2012 by Sykomyke

I think it is even more complex than that...

Specially for hard modes...

 

If you are doing hard modes, it means your gear is not good, since it is something u do in order to upgrade ur gear for operations...

If your gear is not good, and you need to dps things down fast in orther to get good gear, it seens kinda of circular reference...

Enrage timers are needed, otherwise you have group of all healers and 1 or 2 tanks with 0 dps as you will eventually kill it. without enrage timers dps classes become time savers. Edited January 5, 2012 by Qcto

Not saying it isn't necessary...

But it could take more time b4 going enrage... it is really fast right now...

 

The only way my group can down HK Hard Mode is by ignoring the turrets and healing trou.... if we try to dps the turret HK goes enrage...

Our gear is not that bad, its around 120 - 130 rating

Enrage timers are needed, otherwise you have group of all healers and 1 or 2 tanks with 0 dps as you will eventually kill it. without enrage timers dps classes become time savers.

 

Erage timers have always been a silly raid mechanic. It is a lazy design and one that steralizes any diversity in how you can approach those encounters. These timers penalize people who chose to play their class in a manner other then the traditional norm.

 

As an aside, to have erage timers but not a combat log is beyond silly. You emphasize perfecting DPS but don't give us tools to do so efficiently.

Enrage timers are necessary at this point, at least until they work out mechanics and figure out how to design interesting encounters. Right now, a fight is two or three gimmicks and an enrage. Not very complex, but they were probably rushed out to meet EA's release date. That said, none of them are particularly bad for what they are. Eventually everyone will outgear them and not have any reason to go back anyway. If we're still seeing 5 or 6 minute zergfest bosses populating raids in the future, then it's time to start worrying.

Not saying it isn't necessary...

But it could take more time b4 going enrage... it is really fast right now...

 

The only way my group can down HK Hard Mode is by ignoring the turrets and healing trou.... if we try to dps the turret HK goes enrage...

Our gear is not that bad, its around 120 - 130 rating

 

The turrets only tickle. It wouldn't be worth killing them even if the enrage wasn't there.

 

I do disagree with the OP, however. Enrage timers are essential. If you do not have them, then the DPS aren't held accountable to pull their own weight.

 

That said, I do think some of the enrage timers are a little tight right now.

I don't see the big deal. Enrage is a fairly common mechanic these days. In general, the only people that don't like it are casuals. I don't have a problem with casual players but if you aren't putting in the time and effort that hardcore players are, then why would you expect to accomplish the same things and get the nice gear that they are?

 

Having a specific group make up is pretty much a requirement for these types of encounters. That's typical of any serious MMO you are going to play.

 

edit: I do however see the point of needing some way to keep track of the dps. If you can't track it then it makes it annoyingly difficult to stay on target.

Edited January 5, 2012 by TheAngryWang

Erage timers have always been a silly raid mechanic. It is a lazy design and one that steralizes any diversity in how you can approach those encounters. These timers penalize people who chose to play their class in a manner other then the traditional norm.

 

As an aside, to have erage timers but not a combat log is beyond silly. You emphasize perfecting DPS but don't give us tools to do so efficiently.

 

I think the part I bolded is a good thing. If you want to do things that are hard and you're a DPS class it's vital that you should be doing the most damage you can. If you find that to be unpleasant, you could always try tanking or healing - it's tons of fun.

 

I agree that a lack of a combat log is a bad thing though, as well as no warning that enrage has occurred.

Enrage timers are needed, otherwise you have group of all healers and 1 or 2 tanks with 0 dps as you will eventually kill it. without enrage timers dps classes become time savers.

 

oh noes we cant have that

Enrage timers are needed, otherwise you have group of all healers and 1 or 2 tanks with 0 dps as you will eventually kill it. without enrage timers dps classes become time savers.

 

This is the root of the problem. Healer mana used to be the enrage timer, if they ran out of mana before the boss was dead then it was game over. But MMO's have decided to get rid of healer mana management (for good reasons) so they had to think of a way to make it so you could not fight a boss indefinitely, thus enrage timers.

 

Enrage timers are a huge crutch, but its better than nothing.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Pokeytehpenguin

Weird argument because I could make another one:

 

"Mass damage melee AOEs shouldn't be in the game because it makes raids choose range over melee."

 

At least in this game the enrage timer does just that, the boss gets super strong but not unbeatable.

I don't see the big deal. Enrage is a fairly common mechanic these days. In general, the only people that don't like it are casuals. I don't have a problem with casual players but if you aren't putting in the time and effort that hardcore players are, then why would you expect to accomplish the same things and get the nice gear that they are?

 

Having a specific group make up is pretty much a requirement for these types of encounters. That's typical of any serious MMO you are going to play.

 

edit: I do however see the point of needing some way to keep track of the dps. If you can't track it then it makes it annoyingly difficult to stay on target.

 

Could you be any more obnoxious? I definitely am not a casual. I don't find the enrage mechanic to be a pleasant experience. The *occasional* enrage timer setup in a unique fashion is fine. However, their enrage timers are not unique, are ubiquitous in every hard mode encounter, and there is no other mechanic. And enrage is not a fairly common mechanic, I remember tons of other bosses in WoW that were much harder without using a rage mechanic.

 

Stop using the word casuals, you only make yourself look bad.

 

We aren't even talking about hard mode operations, these are merely hard mode heroics to boot!

Edited January 5, 2012 by Sykomyke

I actually like the enrage timers since it pushes DPS to play their hardest and best rather than relying on the tank and healer to carry them through a flashpoint. It also tends to make the more self improvement driven DPS to examine their rotation/priorities and optimize it to increase their damage output, which is always a good thing.

Hardmode is not meant for everyone, if it was then they would not exist.

I actually like the enrage timers since it pushes DPS to play their hardest and best rather than relying on the tank and healer to carry them through a flashpoint. It also tends to make the more self improvement driven DPS to examine their rotation/priorities and optimize it to increase their damage output, which is always a good thing.

 

The only *positive* thing that comes from enrage timers is this: DPS you aren't doing your job.

 

It's the only time healers/tanks get to "blame" someone else. As a tank in hard modes, My job is to hold aggro and do as much damage as possilble while doing it. Beyond that, it's the DPS' job to burn them down. The frustration for me, as a tank, comes from grouping with people who don't do it well.

 

It then becomes almost a burden on me, since I usually am the one organizing groups, to start ostracizing people because they don't have "good enough gear". I like to give everyone a chance because I believe skill>gear 70% of the time.

 

I'll say it again. Enrage timers are a horrible crutch for designers. They are OK in moderation and for some fights. They DO NOT need to be in the game for EVERY SINGLE BOSS FIGHT. That is not an interesting mechanic, that's a crutch.

 

It's just like "Dread" from LOTRO. It used to be a unique mechanic. Now it's nothing more then a gimmick.

The enrage timer is on hard modes for a reason, because it is harder...

 

The enrage timer mechanic has always been a good thing in my opinion. You speak on how as a tank and as a healer some of the enrage timer fights are boring, but the same can be said for the fights where it is a tank and spank and it simply a tank or healer check. Boss does lots of damage and you have learn to deal with that extra damage. Or there are lots of adds that need to be held and picked up.

 

If you are trying to get the better gear, step up your gameplay or stick to the normal versions of fights. Just because you want to be able to do some fights there are probably reasons you aren't able to do them, and until you work harder, be it skill or gear to compensate you shouldn't be able to it.

 

The world is not equal and either is gaming, in other MMOs like WoW professional gamers are said to produce atleast 10% or higher dps then the average player and have a higher uptime. Without an enrage timer all that would happen is that you learn the mechanics, most game mechanics are fairly easy to understand and work through, and those who do more dps just get it done faster instead of having a difference in gear and capability. A difference they deserve for being better players, having better hardware, being more skilled whatever you wish to call it.

 

I am not trying to call QQ to those who complain about things, if Bioware wants to have their hardmodes at a higher skill or gear level that is fine and a great thing for those who have the ability to do it, most players still have the normal versions to experience the fight mechanics.

The enrage timer is on hard modes for a reason, because it is harder...

 

The enrage timer mechanic has always been a good thing in my opinion. You speak on how as a tank and as a healer some of the enrage timer fights are boring, but the same can be said for the fights where it is a tank and spank and it simply a tank or healer check. Boss does lots of damage and you have learn to deal with that extra damage. Or there are lots of adds that need to be held and picked up.

 

If you are trying to get the better gear, step up your gameplay or stick to the normal versions of fights. Just because you want to be able to do some fights there are probably reasons you aren't able to do them, and until you work harder, be it skill or gear to compensate you shouldn't be able to it.

 

The world is not equal and either is gaming, in other MMOs like WoW professional gamers are said to produce atleast 10% or higher dps then the average player and have a higher uptime. Without an enrage timer all that would happen is that you learn the mechanics, most game mechanics are fairly easy to understand and work through, and those who do more dps just get it done faster instead of having a difference in gear and capability. A difference they deserve for being better players, having better hardware, being more skilled whatever you wish to call it.

 

I am not trying to call QQ to those who complain about things, if Bioware wants to have their hardmodes at a higher skill or gear level that is fine and a great thing for those who have the ability to do it, most players still have the normal versions to experience the fight mechanics.

 

All the reasons you gave didn't prove it's a good mechanic. It just proved that's current gen MMO's. Just because YOU think it's a good mechanic doesn't make it a good mechanic.

 

An easier analogy for you to understand would be this. I like tomatoes, you don't. You like cucumbers. That's a difference of opinion. What you are trying to say is that Cucumbers are superior to Tomatoes because they are green, have tasty seeds, and are oblong shaped and somewhat hard to eat. You're saying that Tomatoes are inferior (or if you will compare...in this analogy "normal"), because they are round and easier to eat.

 

Troll somewhere else please unless you plan on providing sustaining evidence on how a ubiquitous enrage timer is a good mechanic.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Sykomyke

Actually this explains how it is a good mechanic just fine you might be blinded by your own thoughts on how the mechanic is a failure. What would you do then to differentiate between different skill levels and gear? Just make up new encounters for each difficultly? I haven't seen much in regards to how it should be improved. The enrage mechanic is for those who are better at the game than others and a way to rank top guilds against others.

Nope, defo looks to me like he verbaly slapped you around like a little girly. Edited January 5, 2012 by Munx

All the reasons you gave didn't prove it's a good mechanic. It just proved that's current gen MMO's. Just because YOU think it's a good mechanic doesn't make it a good mechanic.

 

An easier analogy for you to understand would be this. I like tomatoes, you don't. You like cucumbers. That's a difference of opinion. What you are trying to say is that Cucumbers are superior to Tomatoes because they are green, have tasty seeds, and are oblong shaped and somewhat hard to eat. You're saying that Tomatoes are inferior (or if you will compare...in this analogy "normal"), because they are round and easier to eat.

 

Troll somewhere else please unless you plan on providing sustaining evidence on how a ubiquitous enrage timer is a good mechanic.

 

Might not be a good mechanic, but unless you come up with something better then it is a necessary mechanic or things would simply be too easy, it forces people to do their best, without it, you might as well just go 2 or 3 healers to do a hardmode, which is clearly not the intended design. So if you can come up with a better idea, send it to Bioware, I'm sure they might even take it into consideration if they see it

 

So not a good mechanic but at this point it is a necessary mechanic.

Ok what the hell kind of logic are you guys even using? Enrage timers are NECESSARY, it is the only reason damage classes EXIST. Think about it, with no enrage timers, you could run a group of 1 tank and 3 healers, or 1 tank and 7 healers (yes, this is an exaggeration). Why would you take a dps if having a ton of healers will guarantee a kill, since eventually the boss is going to die. And realistically, having that many healers, no one in your group is going to die.

 

I've done every hard mode flashpoint, cleared every single one of them. Trust me, every enrage timer is very reasonable. Even for the last boss in boarding party, and bulwark. At first, it seemed very tight, but eventually, we figured out how to deal with some of the mechanics, came up with better strategies, improved our rotations and positioning. And guess what? We haven't hit a single enrage timer ever since, and can clear every single hard mode in less than 45 minutes. Black talon in less than 15, that one is just a joke.

 

Same thing goes for the operations (so far I've only done normal mode). EV fully cleared along with Bonethrasher. I wouldn't know about hard modes and nightmare modes for them, but afaik, all of them are possible (that aren't bugged).

 

Enrage timers promote adjustments to your play. If your not beating enrage timers, then clearly your doing something wrong. It could be that your damage dealers are just plain sucking and not pulling their own weight. Maybe the positioning of the boss is terrible, preventing your damage dealers from maximizing their dps. There are a lot of factors that go into it, so a lazy mechanic? HELL NO.

 

And obviously, in some cases it just means your not geared enough. If you whine about that, then clearly MMOs aren't for you.

 

In regards to having to bring a class in order to kill a boss, well sorry to say but that is complete bull. We haven't had a problem with this at all, even for melee dps. And that is considering how unfriendly a lot of the fights are for melee. The same goes with healers. If you know how to play your class, and deal with the mechanics, then your golden.

 

PS. WTB combat log!!!

Edited January 5, 2012 by Pintaphilly

Actually this explains how it is a good mechanic just fine you might be blinded by your own thoughts on how the mechanic is a failure. What would you do then to differentiate between different skill levels and gear? Just make up new encounters for each difficultly? I haven't seen much in regards to how it should be improved. The enrage mechanic is for those who are better at the game than others and a way to rank top guilds against others.

 

Well first off, I don't have a problem with enrage timers, though TOR's are tuned a little tight IMO. However there are various other ways to make DPS skill relevant to a fight. An example: Spawning of adds at timed intervals. Slow DPS will eventually cause the group to be overrun. This is an example of a "soft enrage", in which the mechanics of the fight eventually overwhelm the group if you let the fight drag on too long.

 

I think what the OP is objecting to, is the hard enrage mechanic, where not killing the boss in X seconds means you wipe. A soft enrage means that lower DPS with better tanking or healing could still work if necessary. Or it can open up more complex strategies, such as a group member kiting all adds while the remainder of the group deals with the main boss.

 

There are other ways to make DPS even more relevant, such as damage shields on bosses which need to be broken so that a channeled ability from the boss can be interrupted. This gives you a measure of the burst DPS capabilities of your raid. Now you make the ability that needs to be interrupted survivable, but very hard on tank or healer resources, such that the DPS failing once isn't fatal, but continual failure will definitely result in a wipe.

 

I'm sure I could think of plenty more, hell I am pretty sure I've seen both those mechanics I just described used as soft enrage mechanics in WoW. I'm sure I could delve WoWWiki to find many additional DPS tests which are not simple hard enrages.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Fizil

Well first off, I don't have a problem with enrage timers, though TOR's are tuned a little tight IMO. However there are various other ways to make DPS skill relevant to a fight. An example: Spawning of adds at timed intervals. Slow DPS will eventually cause the group to be overrun. This is an example of a "soft enrage", in which the mechanics of the fight eventually overwhelm the group if you let the fight drag on too long.

 

I think what the OP is objecting to, is the hard enrage mechanic, where not killing the boss in X seconds means you wipe. A soft enrage means that lower DPS with better tanking or healing could still work if necessary. Or it can open up more complex strategies, such as a group member kiting all adds while the remainder of the group deals with the main boss.

 

There are other ways to make DPS even more relevant, such as damage shields on bosses which need to be broken so that a channeled ability from the boss can be interrupted. This gives you a measure of the burst DPS capabilities of your raid. Now you make the ability that needs to be interrupted survivable, but very hard on tank or healer resources, such that the DPS failing once isn't fatal, but continual failure will definitely result in a wipe.

 

I'm sure I could think of plenty more, hell I am pretty sure I've seen both those mechanics I just described used as soft enrage mechanics in WoW. I'm sure I could delve WoWWiki to find many additional DPS tests which are not simple hard enrages.

 

I hope you realize that soft enrage mechanics are pretty much the same concept as enrage timers. There just implemented differently. If you don't have enough dps, you won't beat the boss in any of the two cases. And guess what, people will complain about it, BECAUSE THEIR BOTH THE SAME THING.

 

Not to mention the only reason people complain about enrage timers, is because they can't pull off the dps required to beat the boss for various reasons they deny to admit. PERIOD.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Pintaphilly