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DPS vs Tank/Healer survivability


Carambole

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As having tried out all 3 specs with variations I can say for certain that there is a disparity between being a pure DPS type character such as the gunsliger than for instance a consular kinetic "tank".

 

My question to Bioware is, what is the reason behind this? I thought we left the "make tanks/healers attractive to play" debate behind a few years ago.

 

Example: if you roll a gunsliger toon you won't get a healing companion until your early thirties. Explain how one is to survive other than someone posting "smart" saying get good gear OR equip your decent tank Bowdaar with the best stuff. Those do not impact on survivability for a PURE DPS CLASS. You still cop it.

 

/My 2 cents

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Also as someone who has leveled all three to 50s (tank, healer, and dps) I have to say that you're wrong. There's not a lot of discrepancy. Maybe 1v1 in pvp, sure. But the solo content is what you're talking about right? Any spec of any AC can do all the content, np.

 

The most challenging for solo is surely going to be a dps spec. Especially if you're one of the squishy, straight up dps classes like infiltration shadow, but it's fun to be a jedi ninja :p

Edited by TheNevet
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I think one of the issues in the game is how late ALL the classes flesh out their companion list. For like 35 levels, the only companions my Sentinel had (also DPS) were a tank who wasn't really all that much more survivable than she was as a DPS (T7) and another melee DPS (Kira). It seemed kind of odd to me as I was leveling that no healer, no ranged DPS, is given until the mid-30s. Sounds like Smuggler has the same issue. Same basic thing happened to my BH (He's a healer, got a healer comp early on, which is redundant, then got zip NPC-wise until post-30).

 

I actually feel this is a major mistake on BW's part. We should have gotten our companions much, much earlier. The majority of my Sentinel's companions have relationships totally undeveloped because I got half of them after level 40 and there was no chance to take them all with me on enough missions or buy enough presents for them to get them all into a high relationship wit her.

 

IMO it would have been better to have most or even all of our crew filled out by the mid-20s or maybe even earlier, so from then on we could choose which style of companion we wanted. As it stands now, even if I want a healing companion as my Sent or a tank companion as my BH, I can't select one until much later in the game. That really should be my choice, not BW's.

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As having tried out all 3 specs with variations I can say for certain that there is a disparity between being a pure DPS type character such as the gunsliger than for instance a consular kinetic "tank".
Yeah... tanks have higher survivability. That's kind of the point of playing a tank. You just don't kill stuff as fast.

 

Example: if you roll a gunsliger toon you won't get a healing companion until your early thirties.
Actually, you get a healing companion in your mid to late teens. Most people just choose not to use him.

 

Explain how one is to survive other than someone posting "smart" saying get good gear OR equip your decent tank Bowdaar with the best stuff.
How to survive: learn to play your class properly; it's not rocket science. Edited by ferroz
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Example: if you roll a gunsliger toon you won't get a healing companion until your early thirties.

 

Wait, you played through Hoth in your early 30's?

I'm assuming you're talking about Guss, but he comes in your early 40's... maybe 39? Point is you have to finish your class story on Hoth.

 

I'm not trying to be a smart alec, I'm just wondering if you're attempting to tackle content way above your level here.

Edited by Stenrik
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As having tried out all 3 specs with variations I can say for certain that there is a disparity between being a pure DPS type character such as the gunsliger than for instance a consular kinetic "tank".

 

So, what you're saying is, DPS should have the same survivability as tanks and healers, right.

 

I fully support this notion. As soon as tanks and healers deliver the same amount of damage as DPS-classes or DPS-specs.

 

In other words - You kill stuff quickly, you finish quests more quickly. Sometimes, though, you have to do a corpse-run. Oh wait, no, you don't. You can rez in place. You know what the difference between me on my tank or on my healer and me on my DPS is? On my DPS, I just kill trash that's in my way (hello XP!), on my tank and healer, I mastered the art of "not running into things"; I run in circles around stuff I don't want to pull because it's not a requirement for my quest. You'd be amazed where I can go without pulling any trash I don't need to kill. Why? Fights take too long, plain and simple.

 

So, you come here complaining that you who can kill almost anything in a heartbeat sometimes have to use CDs, sometimes has to break the damage-rotation to do something for your survivability, sometimes might have to use CC?

 

Go, learn to play.

Edited by Ashphael
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After reading through each comment, thanks btw, I'll settle for a shortish reply :)

 

You all have a point. I'm not going to be stupid.

 

So the next question would be. Why are we still rollin` with tanks that do slightly "less" dps. Although I have no hard evidence of this being the case in swtor.

 

Take my former commando, he had 2 heal skills and was slotted in an offensive tree. Imba AoE pwn Mc. Sauce. If **** hit the fan, pop shield and heal up and continue the dps.

 

Learn to play your class never gets old. I think I have to put that person in place finally.

 

See, a person that says that has levelled a fury warrior in wow from scratch and has had headaches for atleast a year. He raids and get the best gear and his rage regeneration finally levels out. Oh lordi how he forgets those headaches when he's chugging down a smoothie seeing the crits fly by :)

 

Conclusion. There is a disparity. I'll be more specific. Jedi Shadow dps and Gunslinger are the 2 weakest roles in the game at the moment. For levelling purposes only. I haven't run a damage meter in a raid yet. Someone correct me with evidence.

 

Also dear bioware Can we finally get some UPGRADED PIXELS!!! PLXXXXXXXXXX

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I think the design flaw here was the healing companions, because it should be the type of companion that EVERY class gets first.

 

But more specifically to your problems try asking around on the 'Slinger forums for leveling tips(I dont have one, else I would help). I think your "survivability" will come from killing things fast and using CCs, or cover tanking.

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Since it seems people still don't get it, ship droid is a healer. He comes without gear so you need to find a cybertech or be one, but he does the job pretty much as well as the 'real' healer you get later (real healer gets a CC and has some damage moves).

 

Also having levelled a gunslinger and now doing a sniper, you're absolutely wrong. It's far easier to level those classes than some of the others (sith warriors for example).

 

Finally, I've never found the healer companions necessary to level at all. I find I go WAY faster doing double dps. You just have to play smarter.

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So the next question would be. Why are we still rollin` with tanks that do slightly "less" dps. Although I have no hard evidence of this being the case in swtor.

 

Because otherwise nobody would ever bring DPS to anything?

 

If tanks did equal DPS to tanks, then why would you bring DPS to a raid?? Just bring 6 Tanks & 2 healers...or maybe just 8 tanks.

 

See, a person that says that has levelled a fury warrior in wow from scratch and has had headaches for atleast a year. He raids and get the best gear and his rage regeneration finally levels out. Oh lordi how he forgets those headaches when he's chugging down a smoothie seeing the crits fly by :)

 

It took you a year to get good gear????

 

More importantly, what is the point of your "awesome" story?

 

Conclusion. There is a disparity. I'll be more specific. Jedi Shadow dps and Gunslinger are the 2 weakest roles in the game at the moment. For levelling purposes only. I haven't run a damage meter in a raid yet. Someone correct me with evidence.

 

hmm..I've leveled a Jedi Shadow & a sniper...never had an issue.

 

Evidence of what? Your opinion is that two AC's are harder to solo with...difficulty can be subjective...the only type of evidence that measures something that is subjective, is a poll. If you want to find out what classes people think are hardest to level as, make one.

 

As for in raids, according to sim data: Gunslinger/sniper is in the highest tier (with marauders & mercs). Assassins are in second tier (with Sorcs).

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Finally, I've never found the healer companions necessary to level at all. I find I go WAY faster doing double dps. You just have to play smarter.

 

Be honest here. We are a gamer community and we game alot. We cannot always be 100% Pro that's when we need to rely on mechanics and other things.

 

Let me clarify. As a lvl 46 Consualr Shadow specced in the dps tree I can NOT take down a lvl 45 gundark elite with or without a healer companion and MAX Meds.

 

Let me further clarify. If one were to look at my gear I would say I’m decently kitted. Let me further clarify. I recently specced kinetic and yes I will be one shotted by this level 45 elite gundark who is to be defeated for a non - HM group quest.

1 simple word to Bioware, Politely I might add, stuff you for giving me this imaginary headache. Simple.

 

Also while you’re at it balance the classes, starting first with the pure dps classes. Also some new survivability skills for these classes wouldn’t be scoffed at. Also make med packs stronger. Also reduce idiotic NPC elite power in normal quests. Also …. Nvm.

Edited by Carambole
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Be honest here. We are a gamer community and we game alot. We cannot always be 100% Pro that's when we need to rely on mechanics and other things.

 

Let me clarify. As a lvl 46 Consualr Shadow specced in the dps tree I can NOT take down a lvl 45 gundark elite with or without a healer companion and MAX Meds.

 

Let me further clarify. If one were to look at my gear I would say I’m decently kitted. Let me further clarify. I recently specced kinetic and yes I will be one shotted by this level 45 elite gundark who is to be defeated for a non - HM group quest.

1 simple word to Bioware, Politely I might add, stuff you for giving me this imaginary headache. Simple.

 

Also while you’re at it balance the classes, starting first with the pure dps classes. Also some new survivability skills for these classes wouldn’t be scoffed at. Also make med packs stronger. Also reduce idiotic NPC elite power in normal quests. Also …. Nvm.

 

So your actual issue is with one mob you're having trouble with.

 

Thanks for clarifying. I'd suggest reporting it as a bug if everything you're saying above is true. You shouldn't be having this issue with this particular creature and while infiltration shadows are weaker as a whole than kinetic, they are fully capable of taking down an elite a level below them.

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I will agree that there is a very large disparity with when classes get their companions.

 

 

Sith Warrior for example will have all it's companions by the end of Hoth, so around Level 40-42. Meanwhile, Sith Inquisitors don't get their last companion until after they finish Voss... so around level 48-50.

 

Take it another step. Warriors have 3 companions before they even hit level 20. Agents don't get their third until about level 30.

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As having tried out all 3 specs with variations I can say for certain that there is a disparity between being a pure DPS type character such as the gunsliger than for instance a consular kinetic "tank".

 

My question to Bioware is, what is the reason behind this? I thought we left the "make tanks/healers attractive to play" debate behind a few years ago.

 

Example: if you roll a gunsliger toon you won't get a healing companion until your early thirties. Explain how one is to survive other than someone posting "smart" saying get good gear OR equip your decent tank Bowdaar with the best stuff. Those do not impact on survivability for a PURE DPS CLASS. You still cop it.

 

/My 2 cents

 

Read that bit and laughed. Equipping Bowdaar and using strategy doesn't help survivability? Having better gear doesn't effect your survivability? You just turned your whole argument into a major "I died, game too hard" QQ.

 

Geared companion = more damage absorption capabilities = stays alive longer = less time before you get railed on = increased survivability (let's not forget that gearing a companion increases their dps output making the battles shorter).

 

Better gear = better damage output = shorter fights = increased survivability due to less damage taken due to decreased battle time.

 

Playing "smart" = using stuns/snares/mezzes/interrupts/positioning effectively to decrease enemies damage output = less damage sustained = better surviability.

 

I rolled a 50 GS and I'll say this honestly, I never used Guss. My main companion was Akaavi (Melee DPS) and whilst it was difficult at time, there was no solo fight that I couldn't do.

 

Got problems with specific fights? List em out and we can help you. Better off doing that than spewing nonsense like you did.

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so I guess i'm the only one who thinks the healing companions are crap? lol

 

and honestly if people are complaining about the difficulty of pve in this game...ilol@them

Edited by Upurss
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As having tried out all 3 specs with variations I can say for certain that there is a disparity between being a pure DPS type character such as the gunsliger than for instance a consular kinetic "tank".

 

My question to Bioware is, what is the reason behind this? I thought we left the "make tanks/healers attractive to play" debate behind a few years ago.

 

Example: if you roll a gunsliger toon you won't get a healing companion until your early thirties. Explain how one is to survive other than someone posting "smart" saying get good gear OR equip your decent tank Bowdaar with the best stuff. Those do not impact on survivability for a PURE DPS CLASS. You still cop it.

 

/My 2 cents

 

Judging roles by the order a specific class gets compnaions in is flawed. Sure a Consular gets a healer companion on Nar Shadda, but their mirror class doesn't get one until Hoth. Meanwhile Sith Warriors get a healing companion on Belsavis (equivilent to Republic Taris) while Guardians don't get one until quite a bit later.

 

Of course it has already been pointed out that everyone gets a healer in the form of the ship droid after finishing their respective capital worlds - all that's needed is to equip it.

 

What I have observed is that if there is an alleged difficulty in levelling as a DPS compared to levelling as a tank or healer that the number of DPS present in higher levels would be expected to be much lower and that instead of seeing "LF1M Tank" or "LF1M Healer" all we would be seeing is "LF1M DPS". Yet the opposite is true - most often it is "LF1M Healer" followed by "LF1M Tank" an in dead last (but still seen) is "LF1M DPS".

 

When I've played DPS I have noticed that (without healers) my DPS character will finish fights with about the same amount of health left over that my tanks would (again, without healers) but they would complete the fights signficantly faster.

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In 1v1 pvp you'll always have a discrepancy, because it's designed (in most games) to function as a rock/paper/scissors balancing system.

 

Tanks kill DPS (usually because they're nigh-immune to damage and have semi-decent damage output of their own)

 

DPS kill Healers (by doing enough burst damage and using interrupts/stuns/cc to prevent the healer from healing)

 

Healers kill Tanks (by being able to easily outlast a tank's damage output via healing)

 

That's just how it is. The balance comes around when you get into team vs team pvp, and all three types of players are having to fight all three at varying times, and usually not in equal numbers.

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So far level 25 and my Gunslinger has had zero issues and very few deaths I do know the 30-40 range things change but so far so good its easy mode ATM. Learn to kite learn to leg shot (Pulse detonator/aim shot with talent) all make mobs go bye bye fast.
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