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If the ranked elo system is to change, please do NOT change it to the previous system

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
If the ranked elo system is to change, please do NOT change it to the previous system

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
04.22.2019 , 12:50 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post


How shocking. You'd prefer the old system that consistently stacked the team in your favor. Games always seem of higher "quality" when you're always winning. It's kind of amazing that as soon as the teams are actually balanced fairly, you barely queue or have any success in ranked anymore.

Quality of a match has nothing to do with the result. You clearly misunderstood the whole point of my previous post In which I explained why I preferred the old system.

In regards to the fairness of the balance of teams, I do agree in the sense that there are way less Over stacked good ranked players teams vs teams where none of them should be playing ranked. Winning those games are not fun at all since I often had to wait north of 30 minutes for that 1 game just to get +3 ish rating.. It felt way too often like a waste of my time. The only bright side is that I sometimes had good quality matches in which I had lots of fun and its for those games that I queue for solo ranked.

In this new system, ive had ZERO high quality games so far because of how it seems to make the teams. I value more the opportunity of having a high quality game over the fairness. As a high level pvper, I do not want to pvp with people who have no clue what they are doing in RANKED. I do not like having low quality games, they are a waste of time for me.

So yes, I do not queue up for solo ranked as much as I used too. The quality of games are one of the big reasons for it. But its not the only reason. In regards to my success in ranked, I have managed to make the front page in All 4 seasons that I set that as my goal. I made top 3 one other time without being on the front page, but that season I did not make making the front page my goal. So yeah my Success can speak for itself.


I have no clue who you are, how long you've been playing this game and/or whether I would consider you to be good at what ever you main. All I can say about ranked now, is that the amount of high level pvpers are far less today than it was in the first few seasons. The amount of players who have improved enough to join that high caliber group of players from my standards has not replaced the amount of high caliber players that have left. There is a reason why after each season the general trend of value of being "top 3" goes down and down. Maybe and hopefully this will change someday because I love the pvp in this game.
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
04.22.2019 , 01:34 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
I value more the opportunity of having a high quality game over the fairness. As a high level pvper, I do not want to pvp with people who have no clue what they are doing in RANKED. I do not like having low quality games, they are a waste of time for me.
If that is actually true, then you should be embracing the current system like I am, because the current system is far more likely to create balanced games than the previous one. This is not a complicated issue.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
So yes, I do not queue up for solo ranked as much as I used too. The quality of games are one of the big reasons for it. But its not the only reason. In regards to my success in ranked, I have managed to make the front page in All 4 seasons that I set that as my goal. I made top 3 one other time without being on the front page, but that season I did not make making the front page my goal. So yeah my Success can speak for itself.
You aren't having success anymore, because you aren't queueing, most likely because you aren't getting on stacked teams anymore. That is why the games feel worse to you. You are deluding yourself if you think it's some pure, competitive desire for great games.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
I have no clue who you are, how long you've been playing this game and/or whether I would consider you to be good at what ever you main. All I can say about ranked now, is that the amount of high level pvpers are far less today than it was in the first few seasons. The amount of players who have improved enough to join that high caliber group of players from my standards has not replaced the amount of high caliber players that have left. There is a reason why after each season the general trend of value of being "top 3" goes down and down. Maybe and hopefully this will change someday because I love the pvp in this game.
The population as a whole has gone down, as has the population that queues ranked. So naturally there are less good ranked players overall. But the proportion of good players to bad ones is probably about the same. I played ranked in season 1, where there was the most participation and competition, and I was Tier 5 (the highest tier). There is not nearly as big a difference between then and now as you are implying. This is still just button-mashing mmo pvp at the end of the day.

MandoMetal's Avatar


MandoMetal
04.22.2019 , 09:30 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
If that is actually true, then you should be embracing the current system like I am, because the current system is far more likely to create balanced games than the previous one. This is not a complicated issue.



You aren't having success anymore, because you aren't queueing, most likely because you aren't getting on stacked teams anymore. That is why the games feel worse to you. You are deluding yourself if you think it's some pure, competitive desire for great games.



The population as a whole has gone down, as has the population that queues ranked. So naturally there are less good ranked players overall. But the proportion of good players to bad ones is probably about the same. I played ranked in season 1, where there was the most participation and competition, and I was Tier 5 (the highest tier). There is not nearly as big a difference between then and now as you are implying. This is still just button-mashing mmo pvp at the end of the day.
Calm down with the accusations bud. Zurules has played for a long time... he knows what hes doing, and I doubt he has such delusions.

From doing ranked on and off pretty much every season to varying degrees on a variety of servers (mostly solos after the first 2 seasons), I can certainly attest to there being much better game quality on average in past seasons before 10.

Season 1-9 in solos for the most part had some of the most competitive games and the most potential for you to actually be able to climb due to individual skill. (There was of course RNG to varying degrees and many compiling problems with the system in past seasons, and it varied from server to server, but overall it was a much better environment for climbing).

The main problems after the first 9 seasons can likely be attributed to them adding mats and components to encourage more participation in solos towards the middle of season 9 IIRC.

In previous seasons for the most part, most players in solos at least had a baseline understanding of what they were doing, allowing for teams with the most hypothetical skill to win.

With the addition of mats/comps farmers that have little to no knowledge of what they are doing being added to the queue in vast quantities, the sheer lack of "skill" became the determining factor in games, not the most "skill". The ever dwindling lack of good players in ranked can in large part be attributed to ones skill no longer influencing the outcome of games.

Both the previous system and this one would both work, perhaps this one better... but none of them will work how most players would want them to work unless there is a baseline bar for entry and/or a removal of mat/component incentives.
- All-Galaxy Roleplayer

"I may be hetero bud... but I'll blast you with so much KappaPride, it'll make ur gendr spin"

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
04.22.2019 , 09:40 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by MandoMetal View Post
Season 1-9 in solos for the most part had some of the most competitive games and the most potential for you to actually be able to climb due to individual skill. (There was of course RNG to varying degrees and many compiling problems with the system in past seasons, and it varied from server to server, but overall it was a much better environment for climbing).
You are making my point for me. Yes, it was better for climbing...because it frequently stacked teams in favor of the highest rated players. Both myself and others have explained how this worked. It amazes me that some people still find this concept difficult to understand. The ranked elo system is not designed to help you climb; it is designed to create fair match ups and then raise or lower your elo based on the outcome. The current system is creating the fairest match ups possible, unlike the old system. This leads players like you and Zurules to think the matches are lower in quality, because you are used to simply getting put on stacked teams.

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
04.23.2019 , 10:25 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
You are making my point for me. Yes, it was better for climbing...because it frequently stacked teams in favor of the highest rated players. Both myself and others have explained how this worked. It amazes me that some people still find this concept difficult to understand. The ranked elo system is not designed to help you climb; it is designed to create fair match ups and then raise or lower your elo based on the outcome. The current system is creating the fairest match ups possible, unlike the old system. This leads players like you and Zurules to think the matches are lower in quality, because you are used to simply getting put on stacked teams.

I'll give it one last shot to try and explain to you what is important to me. When I talk about quality matches, I mean put the 8 best players In the same game and make the fairest teams between those 8 players. Right now, this never happens. The system seems to put the worst players with the best players to help create more fairness (which is a good thing to aim for), but it absolutely does this with the cost of the quality of the match.

We want stacked teams vs stacked teams at the higher elo. In other words, we want to play with people at our supposed level and also vs people at that same level too. When your whole team is at similar level and vs that same level you often get high quality matches.

i'll give you an example: Take any game you want that you consider that has a clear way to determine who are the best in the world at that game. Let say that game is 4v4 based. Now, consider these two possibilities:

1) You have the top 8 players in the world for that game in the finals. team 1 had players ranked 1,4,5,8 and team 2 has players ranked 2,3,6,7.

2) In that same final, you replace the bottom 4 ranks (5,6,7,8) with celebrities(C) who have maybe very little experience playing this game and are not good at it. Team 1 is now: 1,4,C1,C2 Team 2 is now: 2,3,C3,C4

What I consider a HIGH QUALITY finals is clearly shown in ONE of these two options. If you still cant figure out which one I would prefer, then I seriously have no idea how to explain it too you.

For me, I value having HIGH QUALITY matches to have fun when I play solo ranked. Right now, with the current system, I have had ZERO fun games. I get more fun these days queuing solo for regs and hope to be against a good 4 man premade and beat them by doing the least amount of killing possible. I get a higher feeling of satisfaction doing that than playing ranked these days.
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
04.23.2019 , 11:03 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
I played ranked in season 1, where there was the most participation and competition, and I was Tier 5 (the highest tier).

Can you refresh my memory of what 5 tiers you are referring to? To my recollection there has never been 5 tiers of anything when it comes to any ranked season.
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
04.23.2019 , 11:14 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
I'll give it one last shot to try and explain to you what is important to me. When I talk about quality matches, I mean put the 8 best players In the same game and make the fairest teams between those 8 players. Right now, this never happens. The system seems to put the worst players with the best players to help create more fairness (which is a good thing to aim for), but it absolutely does this with the cost of the quality of the match.

We want stacked teams vs stacked teams at the higher elo. In other words, we want to play with people at our supposed level and also vs people at that same level too. When your whole team is at similar level and vs that same level you often get high quality matches.

i'll give you an example: Take any game you want that you consider that has a clear way to determine who are the best in the world at that game. Let say that game is 4v4 based. Now, consider these two possibilities:

1) You have the top 8 players in the world for that game in the finals. team 1 had players ranked 1,4,5,8 and team 2 has players ranked 2,3,6,7.

2) In that same final, you replace the bottom 4 ranks (5,6,7,8) with celebrities(C) who have maybe very little experience playing this game and are not good at it. Team 1 is now: 1,4,C1,C2 Team 2 is now: 2,3,C3,C4

What I consider a HIGH QUALITY finals is clearly shown in ONE of these two options. If you still cant figure out which one I would prefer, then I seriously have no idea how to explain it too you.

For me, I value having HIGH QUALITY matches to have fun when I play solo ranked. Right now, with the current system, I have had ZERO fun games. I get more fun these days queuing solo for regs and hope to be against a good 4 man premade and beat them by doing the least amount of killing possible. I get a higher feeling of satisfaction doing that than playing ranked these days.
What you are describing here is different from what you were describing before. What you are complaining about is purely a population problem. Very frequently there are only about 10 people in queue, so it sorts 8 of those 10 into the fairest possible teams by elo. That does frequently lead to the highest rated player getting some bad players on their team. But that is simply the best the system can do based on the population. It's not as if the matchmaker purposely splits the best players into different games. When there are multiple games going, the matchmaker DOES create a higher elo game and a lower elo game. But usually there is just one game going at a time, so that's just not possible.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
Can you refresh my memory of what 5 tiers you are referring to? To my recollection there has never been 5 tiers of anything when it comes to any ranked season.
http://www.swtor.com/blog/announcing...ason-1-rewards

And you know, looking at the link, I guess they made a typo because there are two tier 5s lol. I was 1500+, the highest tier, and have the rancor and title to prove it

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
04.23.2019 , 12:31 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
What you are describing here is different from what you were describing before. What you are complaining about is purely a population problem. Very frequently there are only about 10 people in queue, so it sorts 8 of those 10 into the fairest possible teams by elo. That does frequently lead to the highest rated player getting some bad players on their team. But that is simply the best the system can do based on the population. It's not as if the matchmaker purposely splits the best players into different games. When there are multiple games going, the matchmaker DOES create a higher elo game and a lower elo game. But usually there is just one game going at a time, so that's just not possible.



http://www.swtor.com/blog/announcing...ason-1-rewards

And you know, looking at the link, I guess they made a typo because there are two tier 5s lol. I was 1500+, the highest tier, and have the rancor and title to prove it

Population issues for sure is part of the problem. As for there only being 1 game at a time going on most of the time i'll have to take your word on it. The few games ive played this season there were atleast 3-4 games going on at the same time. Perhaps there were not even 8 good players in the queue at those times so it would be impossible to get a high quality game. I can just go on my own experience of play and it was not fun at all which is why I rarely play ranked anymore. Maybe it is impossible to have what I consider a high quality match to my standards because there is never 8 players of that caliber even in the queue at the same time anymore. The end result is still the same for me, ranked is no longer fun.


Wow there actually was 5 tiers back then. Always figured it was 3. thank for sharing the article.

Getting the rancor from season 1 does not necessarily mean you were very good compared to the best players. There were about 1.3k characters that got the rancor back then (im guessing maybe 700 different players?) The different between the 700th player and the 100th player was still very significant. I don't know what your rating was back then, but I would not use simply having it as an indicator that you were necessary good. I'd be proud to say that you own one of the better looking and exclusive mounts when talking about the season 1 rancor.
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
04.23.2019 , 01:00 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
Population issues for sure is part of the problem. As for there only being 1 game at a time going on most of the time i'll have to take your word on it. The few games ive played this season there were atleast 3-4 games going on at the same time. Perhaps there were not even 8 good players in the queue at those times so it would be impossible to get a high quality game. I can just go on my own experience of play and it was not fun at all which is why I rarely play ranked anymore. Maybe it is impossible to have what I consider a high quality match to my standards because there is never 8 players of that caliber even in the queue at the same time anymore. The end result is still the same for me, ranked is no longer fun.


Wow there actually was 5 tiers back then. Always figured it was 3. thank for sharing the article.

Getting the rancor from season 1 does not necessarily mean you were very good compared to the best players. There were about 1.3k characters that got the rancor back then (im guessing maybe 700 different players?) The different between the 700th player and the 100th player was still very significant. I don't know what your rating was back then, but I would not use simply having it as an indicator that you were necessary good. I'd be proud to say that you own one of the better looking and exclusive mounts when talking about the season 1 rancor.
Unlike you, I've never claimed to be a great player (as an aside, Zurules personally dubs himself a "PVP expert" in his guild note, so people understand the kind of person we're dealing with here). I just pointed to season one to show that I did indeed have experience playing back then, so I can credibly compare it to playing now.

There are still a lot of people queueing ranked at least as good as you. Plenty that are better. Once again, you are delusional if you think that you are somehow above the competition. Frankly, it's laughable.

As for 3-4 games at a time, yes that was the case in the beginning of the season. There were a lot more people queueing for the first few weeks, but then the participation tapered off, which is probably typical of every ranked season. Ranked doesn't even really pop on star forge until about 5pm, and there is usually only one game going at a time, sometimes two, quite rarely three.

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
04.23.2019 , 01:44 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
Unlike you, I've never claimed to be a great player (as an aside, Zurules personally dubs himself a "PVP expert" in his guild note, so people understand the kind of person we're dealing with here). I just pointed to season one to show that I did indeed have experience playing back then, so I can credibly compare it to playing now.

There are still a lot of people queueing ranked at least as good as you. Plenty that are better. Once again, you are delusional if you think that you are somehow above the competition. Frankly, it's laughable.
I definitely do consider myself a pvp expert because of my experience and success playing with and against some of the best players who have played this game. The reason I have "PvP Expert" as my member note in my current guild is because my current guild is not pvp focused at all. If anyone has a questions about pvp, they know who to ask because of my note. If you don't like the fact that I offer to help people who have questions in regards to pvp, that's your problem.


It's great that you played back in season 1 My point is if you are one of the 700th player rather than one of the top 100. You cant really know the skill differences between what a top player is and what is not because you were not in the same brackets of play if you are on the lower range. Comparing In some degree the best players of back then to today, you need to have played in both the top players from both those times if you want any kind of credibility when comparing them. So what rating were you?


There has and always will be better players than me. I only play my main (shadow) to what I believe to be at about 85% of its potential. I'm a hybrid clicker and im not mechanically sound what so ever. I dont have my cc break, vanish, or my resilience keybound (my most important dcds). I also do not use any target of target modifiers for interrupts or taunts. Despite all this, I manage to beat many players who most people would consider superior than me because my greatest strengths are my strategies and knowledge to best utilise my class and spec even though I am mechanically inferior to win.

I have never claimed to be the best, just one of them. You can keep laughing at that fact all you want, my success speaks for itself.
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow