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Sith Emperor vs Darth Sidious


Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
12.18.2013 , 11:53 AM | #781
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Going back to our little discussion about quotes, can you point out the flaws in the following quote?
Do I really have to?
Surely he even see's that...
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.
Celéna Mercenary Cathinka Seeliara Sage

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.18.2013 , 11:54 AM | #782
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Do I really have to?
Surely he even see's that...
Well, if you could see the rest of the post that quote comes from, he doesn't.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
12.18.2013 , 11:54 AM | #783
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Well, if you could see the rest of the post that quote comes from, he doesn't.
Then there is no saving him, my friend.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.
Celéna Mercenary Cathinka Seeliara Sage

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.18.2013 , 11:59 AM | #784
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Then there is no saving him, my friend.
Indeed. There's also this nugget of laughs:

Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
In the nutshell, Revan is far stronger and effective duelist then the likes of Tinn, Kolar, Fisto and Oppress.
Lol. Revan beat a guard, that makes him better than three of the best duelists in an era of master duelists and Savage.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
12.18.2013 , 12:00 PM | #785
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Malachor V was vastly different from Dromund Kaas, it was a Wound in the Force and the only explanation we have for why Meetra wasn't corrupted or driven insane by merely walking on the planet as all other Force Users were and instead was only gravely ill was the simple fact that she herself was a Wound in the Force.

Now something to point out here is that it is stated in the canon that she completed her training on Dantooine in two months prior to the destruction of Malachor V and completely healed her connection to the Force, removing the Wound within her, this is stated as fact and only makes sense given that no mention of her wound is made during the Revan novel.
She certainly did fully heal and remove the wound within her but exact timing of this accomplishment is not clear at the moment.

Novel gives full credit to her abilities and acknowledges her actions:

Spoiler


Spoiler


Spoiler


Spoiler


It is obvious from the aforementioned revelations that Meetra Surik possessed Force Sever talent and she used that talent to severe her own connection with the Force during the Mandalorian Wars.

The novel also explains why Bastilla did not help Meetra:-

Spoiler


Now, as far as the wound status and recovery process is concerned, the novel briefly elaborates this:

Spoiler


The aforementioned revelation indicates that Meetra fully recovered from wound status in a span of years, not a short span.

Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Now without that wound she would clearly be far more susceptible to the effects of a Dark Side Nexus.

Also we MUST take into consideration that Meetra has been canonically stated to have a wide variety of extremely powerful Force abilities, which was gained from her Force Enlightenment, which is not merely game mechanics as the KotOR CG confirms that she achieved this ability, which is described as "Unlocking and harnessing fully the Light Side of the Force" and the KotOR CG also states she fully mastered the Light Side beyond anyone else of her time, her peak force power was Sever Force which she was naturally gifted in.

These are all canonically well within her power, but we see none of these extremely powerful abilities in the Revan novel, she indeed inexplicably uses her lightsaber far more.
See above.

Yes, novel does not expands much on her capabilities on the whole but the entire novel is poorly written, it does justice to no one. However, crucial parts of Meetra's story have been covered in the novel and she have been acknowledged as a powerful Jedi.

KoTOR CG lists several of her talents but even (Darth) Revan have more impressive stats then hers in the same source.

Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Now the only guess we can make is that Dromund Kaas severely weakened her as it did all other Light Siders that travelled the planet, which is why she was forced to rely upon her lightsaber abilities and not use her extremely gifted abilities in the Light Side of the Force.

Simply put Meetra Surik after the severe effects of Nathema which she may or may not have recovered fully from(I would guess not considering that these places evidently hurt Light Siders far more than Dark Siders) and telling T3 she was okay doesn't definitively mean she was fully recovered from her near death experience.

Combine this with travelling to a place covered in a miasma of Dark Side energy that has proved extremely detrimental to other light siders that have also travelled to the same planet and you start to get a picture that Meetra was nowhere near peak performance and her need to directly meditate instead of using Moving Meditation which is one of her many abilities is evidence that she clearly could not centre herself on the planet.
Meetra visited Dromund Kaas after a span of 2 days, enough time for her to recover fully.

Nathema severely effects any mortal, because the Force itself is absent their and Midichlorians of the Force-users are badly effected in its absence. Light or Dark alignment makes no difference.

Revan and Malak also had been to this world:

Spoiler


Now if Revan and Malak were able to search buildings in this world, it implies that both had extraordinary control abilities. Nyriss was also less effected on this world in comparison to Scourge.

Therefore, coping potential of every Force-user varies against external threats.

Meetra may not have been at the top of her game in Dromund Kaas but she wasn't diminished to such a level that she even her senses were not working on it. She was able to sense the presence of Revan and even her opponents, unleash Force powers and effectively duel on this planet.

Some examples:

Spoiler


Spoiler


The soldiers in the aforementioned revelation were not ordinary ones, rather top ones serving Nyriss.

Now, of-course, I don't know how more Meetra had in her in a neutral setting, but when she confronted Nyriss, she was aided by Lord Scourge (who is above-average Force-user as well) and both still lost to the Dark Council member. This is why I assume that Nyriss is more powerful then Meetra Surik and it is a safe assumption.
My favorite Star Wars book: Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

My favorite Star Wars character: Vitiate

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.18.2013 , 12:07 PM | #786
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
Malachor V was vastly different from Dromund Kaas, it was a Wound in the Force and the only explanation we have for why Meetra wasn't corrupted or driven insane by merely walking on the planet as all other Force Users were and instead was only gravely ill was the simple fact that she herself was a Wound in the Force.

Now something to point out here is that it is stated in the canon that she completed her training on Dantooine in two months prior to the destruction of Malachor V and completely healed her connection to the Force, removing the Wound within her, this is stated as fact and only makes sense given that no mention of her wound is made during the Revan novel.

Now without that wound she would clearly be far more susceptible to the effects of a Dark Side Nexus.

Also we MUST take into consideration that Meetra has been canonically stated to have a wide variety of extremely powerful Force abilities, which was gained from her Force Enlightenment, which is not merely game mechanics as the KotOR CG confirms that she achieved this ability, which is described as "Unlocking and harnessing fully the Light Side of the Force" and the KotOR CG also states she fully mastered the Light Side beyond anyone else of her time, her peak force power was Sever Force which she was naturally gifted in.

These are all canonically well within her power, but we see none of these extremely powerful abilities in the Revan novel, she indeed inexplicably uses her lightsaber far more.

Now the only guess we can make is that Dromund Kaas severely weakened her as it did all other Light Siders that travelled the planet, which is why she was forced to rely upon her lightsaber abilities and not use her extremely gifted abilities in the Light Side of the Force.

Simply put Meetra Surik after the severe effects of Nathema which she may or may not have recovered fully from(I would guess not considering that these places evidently hurt Light Siders far more than Dark Siders) and telling T3 she was okay doesn't definitively mean she was fully recovered from her near death experience.

Combine this with travelling to a place covered in a miasma of Dark Side energy that has proved extremely detrimental to other light siders that have also travelled to the same planet and you start to get a picture that Meetra was nowhere near peak performance and her need to directly meditate instead of using Moving Meditation which is one of her many abilities is evidence that she clearly could not centre herself on the planet.
I concur with this, Revan and Meetra in my opinion are quite close to each other in terms of power.

S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
12.18.2013 , 12:14 PM | #787
Quote: Originally Posted by Silenceo View Post
Forget that, how can anybody say that Revan is nearly as powerful as Yoda?! It is just absurd.
According to canon, even the most powerful Jedi struggle to contain Sith lightning with their raw power. Revan have remarkable showings in this aspect which translates to him having immense raw power, enough to land him among the TOP 5 of the Order in raw power aspect.

Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
See, I can't see any of his posts, It's bliss.

But good god, did you edit that or did he really say that?
In my debates, never I have come across more ignorant fan than this one.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I was going to mention that, but I noticed that Beni referred to it.
This is Star Wars related discussion, not a math class.

If you ask "2+2=" and I respond with "4" then I make a point only in this manner?

It was a rough guess, nothing concrete. However, the point associated with it is the main thing which you guys expectedly overlooked.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
His reason? Because Revan destroyed Nyriss.
Nice way to mislead others.

Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
I am so done.
I didn't... How... easingjkmov.
You should be so done with Star Wars debates.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Going back to our little discussion about quotes, can you point out the flaws in the following quote?
Jeez,

That is not my claim, this is actual canon quote from a Star Wars character.

Damn.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Indeed. There's also this nugget of laughs:



Lol. Revan beat a guard, that makes him better than three of the best duelists in an era of master duelists and Savage.


That guard is a match for a Jedi and virtually immune to Force powers near Sith Emperor. That is not "some guard."

Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled.

Those guards gave tough time to Lord Scourge, a swordmaster with over a 1000 Sith and Jedi kills under his belt. Let this sink in your mind for a while.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I concur with this, Revan and Meetra in my opinion are quite close to each other in terms of power.
You concur with questionable analysis very often. Is this a friendship thing?

Revan have noticeably more impressive stats then Jedi Exile even in KoTOR CG and this is his DARTH incarnation. He became more powerful afterwards.
My favorite Star Wars book: Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

My favorite Star Wars character: Vitiate

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.18.2013 , 12:29 PM | #788
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
Now, of-course, I don't know how more Meetra had in her in a neutral setting, but when she confronted Nyriss, she was aided by Lord Scourge (who is above-average Force-user as well) and both still lost to the Dark Council member. This is why I assume that Nyriss is more powerful then Meetra Surik and it is a safe assumption.
Is it? Meetra fighting alongside Scourge does not = Meetra + Scourge. They are separate entities and did not engage in any form of battle meld or Force harmony that would merge there power. Therefore Meetra's combat abilities and overall Force power would not have at all been bolstered by Scourge's presence.

All Scourge would have been able to do if apply more pressure, and perhaps take some heat of Meetra. But of course Meetra and Scourge have never fought together before, so we cannot expect them to work well as a team.

All in all, Meetra could have been more powerful than Nyriss and still lost even with Scourge's assistance.

Furthemore, after staggering Scourge:
Spoiler
Scourge was not even able to help her most of the time, it was effectively a 1v1 duel.

All in all, Meetra could have been more powerful than Nyriss and still lost even with Scourge's assistance.

Assuming it safe to believe Nyriss is more powerful than Scourge, is to assume that when fighting together Force Sensitives have their power bolstered by the sum of their ally - this is not a safe assumption.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
12.18.2013 , 12:30 PM | #789
Ok, I unignored him, seems I'm missing out big time here.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.
Celéna Mercenary Cathinka Seeliara Sage

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
12.18.2013 , 12:37 PM | #790
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
According to canon, even the most powerful Jedi struggle to contain Sith lightning with their raw power. Revan have remarkable showings in this aspect which translates to him having immense raw power, enough to land him among the TOP 5 of the Order in raw power aspect.
Revan isn't a Jedi.
The main problem with Jedi and Force lightning is the fact that Jedi cannot contain the darkness, and the mere containment or redirection can taint them. Let's also not forget, Containing =/= Redirecting, Yoda struggled with Dooku's lightning, but redirected Sidious' Lightning into a force repulse. Oh, and the way Tutaminis works hasn't been confirmed, it's most likely that Containing is far harder to do than redirecting.



Quote:
It was a rough guess, nothing concrete. However, the point associated with it is the main thing which you guys expectedly overlooked.
Nothing you post ever seems to have any concrete stuff in it.


Quote:
You should be so done with Star Wars debates.
Little bit rich, don't you think?

Quote:
Those guards gave tough time to Lord Scourge, a swordmaster with over a 1000 Sith and Jedi kills under his belt. Let this sink in your mind for a while.
This is a Joke right. You've got to be joking. Scourge hadn't killed a Single Jedi, or Sith, when he faced the Guards.

Quote:
Revan have noticeably more impressive stats then Jedi Exile even in KoTOR CG and this is his DARTH incarnation. He became more powerful afterwards.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. He's PHYSICALLY stronger and more agile than her, big whoop. In fact, he'd probably be a lot worse after the transformation into Revan Reborn, an explosion like that would have caused permanent damage to him.

That guide says nothing in terms of their force abilities or Lightsaber skill. Keep trying to claim completely false and made up information though, we're used to it.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.
Celéna Mercenary Cathinka Seeliara Sage