Inspired by the Kaggath series, I decided to start another vs series. I will present some scenarios which lead the forces seen in different Flashpoints to face each other. (Some outcomes might also be included in an overall narrative.)

In theory this might better be posted in the Story and Lore section, but STAR WARS Discussion has become the place for most vs debates so I'd rather keep it here.

The rules will be adjusted in every battle. Only two overall rules will stand:

• Level doesn't matter (it can be assumed all participants are level 50)
  
• No involvement of player characters
  

Most armies seen here will be the players enemies in the game. But there are some exceptions, like this one:

Scenario: Grand Moff Kilran has sent the Black Talon to intercept the Esseles and capture Ambassador Asara.

Location: Space

The Esseles is a Wanderer-class transport ship. These are former corvettes, stripped of most of their armament and converted for mostly civilian use. The Esseles has a small Security Team lead by Commander Narlock. I'm not sure if it has starfighters aboard. I counted two bombers in tha hangar bay, but they might as well be on a transport instead of being in a condition to use.

Important Crewmembers: Captain Tyrus, First Officer Haken, Commander Narlock, Chief Engineer Salen, Ambassador Asara

The Black Talon is a Gage-class transport ship. Similar to the larger Terminus-class destroyer, the Gage-class lacks the armament of it's brother, but still has it's heavy armor. The Black Talon Transports a squad of marines. It also has a fighter squadron.

Important Crewmembers: Captain Revinal Orzik, Lieutenant Sylas, Imperial Lieutenant commanding the marines

Special Rules: Attempts to run, negotiate or give up are allowed.

Would the Black Talon succeed and bring the captured ambassador home?

Upcoming flashpoint battles:

Darth Ikoral vs Prophet of Vodal (old school Kaggath)

Darth Serevin's Quest to find Revan (Battle of Ilum vs. Taral V and after that Maelstrom Prison)

Which would you like to see first?

Very cool. Finally I can engage in some real debating! I reckon the Black Talon would win this confrontation. The Republic commanders seem like blithering idiots, while the Imperial commanders (despite only being in command of a transport ship) seem to possess a level of intellect and ability to adapt. The fact that the Black Talon managed to hold its own against the Brentaal Star - a fully armed Thranta-class corvette seems to imply it could easily take on the Essesels.

Plus they can used Ambassador Asara as leverage.

P.S. I'd like to see Ikoral vs Prophet of Vodal 1st

Interesting....

Even though the Esseles officer wanted to surreneder to the Sith warship in that flashpoint, we can't count on it happening again because

A the Captain will still be alive

B the Ship that the Officer tried to surrended to was "one of the biggest in the Imperial fleet."

So who'd win the fight? I'm unsure. My gut tells me the Black Talon wins.

Very cool. Finally I can engage in some real debating! I reckon the Black Talon would win this confrontation. The Republic commanders seem like blithering idiots, while the Imperial commanders (despite only being in command of a transport ship) seem to possess a level of intellect and ability to adapt. The fact that the Black Talon managed to hold its own against the Brentaal Star - a fully armed Thranta-class corvette seems to imply it could easily take on the Essesels.

 

Plus they can used Ambassador Asara as leverage.

 

P.S. I'd like to see Ikoral vs Prophet of Vodal 1st

Well, confidence seems a little more complicated...

Captain Orzik is clearly quite competent, but the rest of his crew seem like idiots. Especially his XO. (Kilran's droids seems like the most intelligent crewmember after the captain.)

First Officer Haken and the bridge crew also seem like idiots, but we don't know about the Captain. Commander Narlock, Ambasador Asara and Chief Salen seem quite competent, though.

Interesting....

 

Even though the Esseles officer wanted to surreneder to the Sith warship in that flashpoint, we can't count on it happening again because

A the Captain will still be alive

B the Ship that the Officer tried to surrended to was "one of the biggest in the Imperial fleet."

 

So who'd win the fight? I'm unsure. My gut tells me the Black Talon wins.

I don't think they'd surrender. But they would if they had Ambassador Ashara.

The Esseles was essentially a Thranta-class warship without many of the armanents as it's sibling. It was a Wanderer-class transport which was used to shuttle civilians and important people. It carried a small amount of fighters and a few shuttles, as well as having presumably 4-5 turbolasers alongside an unknown amount of laser cannons.

The Black Talon was a Gage-class transport. While smaller and less-armed versions of Terminus-class destroyers, the transports made up for loss of armanent with more cargo space and trooper barracks than their destroyer bretheren. The Black Talon carried enough Mark IV Supremacy fighters to hold off the Brentaal Star, as well as maybe two or three shuttles. The ship presumably had 7 turbolasers and an unknown amount of laser cannons.

Black Talon wins. With fighter superiority and a larger amount of turbolasers, as well as most likely having a more numerous amount of troops due to the fact of the larger troop barracks. The Black Talon also had heavy and withstandable armor. The Esseles would most likely be able to put up a good fight, but in the end would be destroyed.

That depends on 3 factor's:

1: does either or both ship have players onboard?

A single player is worth 100 troops.

2:is the black talon captian alive or dead?

Captain ozack(i think his name was)

Is capebol so is his xo(tho fanaticaly devoted to the sith you dont become a xo overnight)

3: ship weapons and shielding.

My opion is:

That if the imperials can get enought men aboard they will overrun the esseless.

If they cant the esseless will escape(black talon doesnt have a tractor beam)

I don't think they'd surrender. But they would if they had Ambassador Ashara.

Well, if they get Ambassador Asara, they have already won in this scenario, because that's their mission. I could actually see Captain Orzik withdrawing after that (well, let the Esseles run) to avoid further damage to his ship and losses in his crew.

That depends on 3 factor's:

1: does either or both ship have players onboard?

A single player is worth 100 troops.

No. In general, player characters are excluded from the Flashpoint battles.

2:is the black talon captian alive or dead?

Captain ozack(i think his name was)

Is capebol so is his xo(tho fanaticaly devoted to the sith you dont become a xo overnight)

No players means the captain is still alive. He is indeed quite capable.

I don't think his XO is, though. She doesn't seem to have any battle experience. I think she has always been on the transport ship and hopes to get promoted to a better ship soon. (She also seems young enough to assume she is at the starting point of his career. The Captain on the other hand seems to have enough battle experience.

3: ship weapons and shielding.

Judging by the facts Bird_of_Thunder posted, the Black Talon seems to have the edge here.

first I have to make a question:does the esseles' transports have hyperdrive engines?

Yes, it has. And better ones than the Black Talon, iirc. Given that if the Esseles manages to run away, the Black Talon has basically failed it's mission, this might be an advantage of the Esseles to consider.

Thanks for all replies so far.

Are we talking Star Wars make believe where computer controlled lasers miss? In which case whoever gets luckiest with the RNG and hits the enemies engines wins.

Or real life where the engines are blown out with 1 shot? In which case whoever has the longest range guns or fighters wins.

Are we talking Star Wars make believe where computer controlled lasers miss? In which case whoever gets luckiest with the RNG and hits the enemies engines wins.

 

Or real life where the engines are blown out with 1 shot? In which case whoever has the longest range guns or fighters wins.

No, real life when this doesn't happen.

/endthread.

(joking )

I believe that the best option that commander narlock should take all troops and passengers that

have volunteered and hold the sith long enough for the passengers to escape by using the transports.

He could also use the droids messing with the ships system to slow the sith even more.than trap

them into the ship and activate self destruct.the ship would be destroyed,everyone would be dead but that includes

all sith aboard the ship and most importantly ambassador assara would be safe into rebublic custody...

The problem is that both sides aren't that good. Lets face it, the game is designed that whichever side you are playing cannot accomplish their goals without players. That is the points of these flashpoints, for you to carry your side to victory, sometimes kicking and screaming the entire way.

Therefore this is tough because we have to look at which side had less trouble assisting the players and that can be tough.

As this is a flashpoint battle the fight won't be resolved by spaceship battle, therefore it doesn't matter that the Black Talon is a tougher ship, this fight is going to end inside the ships. Now lets compare when the Essles was boarded to when the Black Talon was boarded.

If this is the case I have to give the benefit to the Black Talon, when the Captain survives they hold on far better against the boarders then the Esseles does, then again that might have been different if the Captain of the Esseles survived as we really don't know anything about him.

We also need to look at what happens when they each send their respective boarding parties, in this case I have to give the edge to the Esseles, mainly due to the fact that the Black Talon boarding party does absolutely nothing and I believe that Commander Narlok would make a decent boarding action.

In the end I think the Esseles would win but only by a small amount. First the Black Talon would show up and attack, it would have the advantage and launch a boarding party, the Ambassador and Commander Narlok would make a successful repelling action I believe and be able to escape though they would take a lot of losses and be very damaged by the tie they escape in my opinion. Now if the Esseles were forced to board the Black Talon for any reason then the results would be different. The Black Talon's captain is the most competent NPC there with Commander Narlok right behind him. So as this is a Black Talon attacking and Esseles defending then the Republic wins this in my opinion but barely.

The problem is that both sides aren't that good. Lets face it, the game is designed that whichever side you are playing cannot accomplish their goals without players. That is the points of these flashpoints, for you to carry your side to victory, sometimes kicking and screaming the entire way.

Don't worry, the next flashpoint will put flashpoint enemies against each other.

Your arguments sound convincing. But I also got the impression that the Black Talon has a lot more troops (well, you normally kill them, but in this scenario they are still alive).

In the end I think the Esseles would win but only by a small amount. First the Black Talon would show up and attack, it would have the advantage and launch a boarding party, the Ambassador and Commander Narlok would make a successful repelling action I believe and be able to escape though they would take a lot of losses and be very damaged by the tie they escape in my opinion. Now if the Esseles were forced to board the Black Talon for any reason then the results would be different. The Black Talon's captain is the most competent NPC there with Commander Narlok right behind him. So as this is a Black Talon attacking and Esseles defending then the Republic wins this in my opinion but barely.

I would disagree, the Black Talon has a considerable amount of troops and much less civilians, if any. As a militaristic society its going to be a lot better armed. So a boarding action on the Esseles would be difficult to repel - they only managed to repel it before due help from the Republic heroes.

Whats more the Black Talon can disable the ships engines from afar, or sabotage it from inside which would effectively prevent it from jumping to lightspeed. This would not be too difficult as the Empire is not so concerned with personal fire, just direct all fire on the engines, maximum firepower etc etc. (Done it in Empire at War enough times...)

The Esseles also has to think about its civilian cargo, they have a duty to protect them and therefore will use resources doing so - and again its leverage for the Republic.

Since this is only a insignificant battle of flashpoints for beginners without even putting the enemies against each other, I'll declare the winner later today.

So we can move on to the real deal.

I would disagree, the Black Talon has a considerable amount of troops and much less civilians, if any. As a militaristic society its going to be a lot better armed. So a boarding action on the Esseles would be difficult to repel - they only managed to repel it before due help from the Republic heroes.

 

Whats more the Black Talon can disable the ships engines from afar, or sabotage it from inside which would effectively prevent it from jumping to lightspeed. This would not be too difficult as the Empire is not so concerned with personal fire, just direct all fire on the engines, maximum firepower etc etc. (Done it in Empire at War enough times...)

 

The Esseles also has to think about its civilian cargo, they have a duty to protect them and therefore will use resources doing so - and again its leverage for the Republic.

These are very good points however I will disagree about a few things.

Yes I do acknowledge that the Black Talon itself does have more troops but remember the Esseles was facing Grand Moff Kilran's flagship which had far superior troops then the Black Talon had. Also while having more soldiers it is still a transport ship which wasn't holding a full force with it, it was simply doing runs to the capital and thus wouldn't be fully stocked on soldiers and munitions.

The Esseles proved to have a decent (barely) resistance with Commander Narlok and his men along with the Ambassador who lets remember is willing to launch people out of airlocks to achieve victory.

We know from dialog in the Black Talon Flashpoint that their marines aren't elite forces as you are told that they will have a difficult time holding positions even as the player characters are slaughtering the defenders. These troops aren't there to conquer things these are most likely green soldiers who are being kept in the rear.

As for the Black Talon shooting out the engines, possible but they weren't trying to do anything so fancy during their flashpoint. Heck you would think they would be trying to disable gun turrets to make it easier to contend with the Brental Star, however their fleet planning was to do evasive maneuvers and launch a boarding party.

Now that might have only been the case against a superior warship however as we have never seen the Black Talon face off against anything else, we must assume that both sides will act like they did during the Flashpoints, and if that is the case then I have to give the edge to the Republic who is simply trying to escape while the Black Talon seems more interested in a fast snatch and grab with minimal space combat.

These are very good points however I will disagree about a few things.

Yes I do acknowledge that the Black Talon itself does have more troops but remember the Esseles was facing Grand Moff Kilran's flagship which had far superior troops then the Black Talon had. Also while having more soldiers it is still a transport ship which wasn't holding a full force with it, it was simply doing runs to the capital and thus wouldn't be fully stocked on soldiers and munitions.

The Esseles proved to have a decent (barely) resistance with Commander Narlok and his men along with the Ambassador who lets remember is willing to launch people out of airlocks to achieve victory.

We know from dialog in the Black Talon Flashpoint that their marines aren't elite forces as you are told that they will have a difficult time holding positions even as the player characters are slaughtering the defenders. These troops aren't there to conquer things these are most likely green soldiers who are being kept in the rear.

 

As for the Black Talon shooting out the engines, possible but they weren't trying to do anything so fancy during their flashpoint. Heck you would think they would be trying to disable gun turrets to make it easier to contend with the Brental Star, however their fleet planning was to do evasive maneuvers and launch a boarding party.

 

Now that might have only been the case against a superior warship however as we have never seen the Black Talon face off against anything else, we must assume that both sides will act like they did during the Flashpoints, and if that is the case then I have to give the edge to the Republic who is simply trying to escape while the Black Talon seems more interested in a fast snatch and grab with minimal space combat.

When I started this, I already thought it would be quite close, but my gut feeling was that the Black Talon would win. Now I think differently. This scenario does indeed favor the Esseles.

To win, the Black Talon has to capture Ambassador Asara. This includes several steps. Based on the arguments, I gave every step a chance of success:

1. Ambush the Esseles (chance of success 90%)

2. Disable the Esseles' engines (chance of success 70%, especially because the Black Talon has a larger fighter squadron)

3. Board the Esseles (chance of success 50%, BT has more marines, but the Esseles has Commander Narlock)

4. Find and capture Ambassador Asara (chance of success 80%, because she is more likely to fight than to hide)

5. Bring her back to the Black Talon before Chief Salen manages to repair the Hyperdrive (chance of success 90%)

The Black Talon must succeed in each of this steps to win. If one step fails, the Esseles wins. The chance of success adds up to only 22,68%. Capture and Extract Missions are incredibly hard to pull of in general, I suppose.

So most likely the Esseles will manage to run with the Ambassador.

Of course, this scenario isn't fair. But it is realistic from a military and political perspective and nicely combines the story of both flashpoints. In a battle to the death the Black Talon would most likely win.

Next flashpoint battle will be the Kaggath between Darth Ikoral and the Prophet of Vodal.

When I started this, I already thought it would be quite close, but my gut feeling was that the Black Talon would win. Now I think differently. This scenario does indeed favor the Esseles.

 

To win, the Black Talon has to capture Ambassador Asara. This includes several steps. Based on the arguments, I gave every step a chance of success:

 

1. Ambush the Esseles (chance of success 90%)

2. Disable the Esseles' engines (chance of success 70%, especially because the Black Talon has a larger fighter squadron)

3. Board the Esseles (chance of success 50%, BT has more marines, but the Esseles has Commander Narlock)

4. Find and capture Ambassador Asara (chance of success 80%, because she is more likely to fight than to hide)

5. Bring her back to the Black Talon before Chief Salen manages to repair the Hyperdrive (chance of success 90%)

 

The Black Talon must succeed in each of this steps to win. If one step fails, the Esseles wins. The chance of success adds up to only 22,68%. Capture and Extract Missions are incredibly hard to pull of in general, I suppose.

So most likely the Esseles will manage to run with the Ambassador.

 

I declare the Esseles winner in this scenario.

 

Of course, this scenario isn't fair. But it is realistic from a military and political perspective and nicely combines the story of both flashpoints. In a battle to the death the Black Talon would most likely win.

 

Next flashpoint battle will be the Kaggath between Darth Ikoral and the Prophet of Vodal.

I have to say I agree with you... a first I thought the Black Talon would win but this is not a straight up fight. The Esseles managed to escape Rycus Kilran intact so why not the Talon? Looking forward to the next fight.

A bit late, but would the Imperial saboteurs onboard the Esseles still be there in this scenario? If so, they could try and disable the Esseles engines as soon as the Black Talon arrives, in addition to providing combat support in needed.

Well as both are resources of Grand Moff Kilran I would certainly hope they would be involved, but I want to hear the OP position on that first

A bit late, but would the Imperial saboteurs onboard the Esseles still be there in this scenario? If so, they could try and disable the Esseles engines as soon as the Black Talon arrives, in addition to providing combat support in needed.

Hmm, that's something I didn't consider. If they were there, they would certainly make it more difficult. If they would disable the engines and kill the Chief, that would really boost the chances of the Black Talon. There would be no ticking clock involved anymore and all would depend on Narlock succeeding in repelling the attack.