You don't have to use the queue system to play.. right? It's just convenient for PUG play, right? I'm sure they will make adjustments to how queues for PvP work as they see how the players access the PvP play in the game.

I guess you could go to Outlaw Den and PvP, but if you want to do warzones you do have to use the queue system, right? Or do you know something that I don't know?

I'd be happy to stay on topic if people would stop attacking me for saying something that is not true.

 

As to the topic.. I have stated my views on it, responded to rebuttals, and Eric has as well. What else really is there to discuss.. other then people refusing to accept it as is for now.. play it.. and let your play show Bioware the error of their ways?

Fixed that for you, no need to thank me.

I don't lash out at anything. You assume too much and I resent your accusation.

 

Again.. an ad hominem on your part to try to control my expression of my views about the topic.

bringing my character into question is an ad hominem

Well; you probably can't convince Bioware any more than you can convince their apologists on the forums. Might as well just quit the match when you see an arena. That will either make them realize how much people want to be able to just do the 8v8, or they will more likely make another mistake with a quitter debuff because they are so determined to not give people what they want in the name of metrics.

This, 1000 times over.

I'd be happy to stay on topic if people would stop attacking me for saying something they do not agree with.

 

As to the topic.. I have stated my views on it, responded to rebuttals, and Eric has as well. What else really is there to discuss.. other then people refusing to accept it as is for now.. play it.. and let your play show Bioware the error of their ways?

 

Seriously.. play the game.. drop from the Arenas if you don't want them. Drop from the WZs if you don't want them. The data will show Bioware what they need to do, if anything.

The only "personal attacks" against you were in response to those you launched. ^_^

As to the topic, those of us who primarily PvP cannot use our play to "show bioware". I think someone already posted something here regarding that. I PvP, and therefore I will queue, which is the only option. The data will read "That Kontraz guy is queuing, he obviously loves the system"

And even if the data showed Bioware what they need to do, it does not mean they will act on it. I'm quite confident in the opposite.

I did proved proof. two six month gaps without touching anything in terms of PvP from development, as well as a steady decline in subscribers.

Which in no way proves that they do not use data and analysis of data along with player feedback to adjust the game over time. All it proves is that PvP is not as high a priority as it should be IYO.

You are making claims on behalf of "most pvpers", stating that they go into objective-based warzones only wanting to deathmatch.

Dude.... it's a gaming forum.. we are all expressing our opinions and perspectives here. Are you saying that most PvPers don't play mostly for killing aspect of PvP? Seriously?

as well as suggesting bioware will look at their data and update accordingly in the best interest of the player base.

It is clear to me that Bioware does use data and data analysis in conjunction with player feedback to determine changes to the game. YES. And given the number of dismissive comments in just this thread about how bad they are at using data... I'd say that confirms that even the most frustrated of PvP players believe (and object to it).

I never said it was irrational.

 

There was a time when PvE players had no queues.. and to this day still complain about queue design. Different parts of this game are always at different states of maturity and feature set.

Yes but when GF was added there was the option to queue for OPs, FPs, HM FPs or all of the above at the same time. I don't think I've heard people complain about the queue design - they mainly complain about the lack of tanks and healers (which is obviously not Bioware's fault) or the fact that they queue as one role and get grouped as another (which could be a bug or people not paying attention when they queue).

This is quite different.

There is no equivalent to Arenas in PvE, never has been, in any MMO. Arenas are brand new here. It makes total sense that they devs install them and do not deliberately separate them in queues to me. I'm not saying it was a perfect solution in any way. But I do know that if they separate them.. they'll get probably as many (if not more) complaints about that. So for them.. it's scorned one way or scorned another.

But...there is.

It's called smaller scale, instanced PVE content ( FPs) and larger scale, instanced PVE content (OPs).

They are essentially the exact same thing (just like WZs and Arenas are basically about killing each other) but there are a lot of things that differentiate the two. And it's because of those differences that we are not forced to queue for everything at the same time, EVEN THOUGH that would lower queue times

You don't have to use the queue system to play.. right? It's just convenient for PUG play, right? I'm sure they will make adjustments to how queues for PvP work as they see how the players access the PvP play in the game.

In PVE? No you don't.

In PVP? Yeah, you kinda have to. There is no other way you can do PVP that will count for your dailies and weeklies. And while in PVE you can just get 3 people from your guild and not even queue, in PVP it doesn't work that way.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are things that don't need a year to pass to be adjusted. There are things that don't really make sense and they never should've been implemented the way they were.

And no, not just because I don't personally like them, but because when one aspect of the game (PVE) is designed around the "do what entertains you" philosophy, then you should expect and demand the other part of it (PVP) to be built around the same philosophy as well.

The only "personal attacks" against you were in response to those you launched. ^_^

Not true. I made a snarky post directed at you, which Joe reported, and it was removed and I was warned about being polite.

I have received more then a dozen posts directed at me of very similar quality, some worse in fact. But I did not bother to report them as I know the PvPers are just venting their frustrations about Biowares choice on the queue.

There is more evidence that their data drives the right changes to the game rather then the wrong changes.

 

I get that any change they make is by definition invalid if you don't agree with it.. regardless what their data says.

Metrics and data collections are good for things like damage output, absorbed, heals from players and npcs etc. Data will be utterly useless against things that a player might contribute to because they have no alternative.

I hate huttball, but i go along with it because there are comms for grabs and whats 12 mins of my time after all. By the time i realise we are gettin stomped i may as well stay for the losers gain.

I hate runnin certain flashpoints but have to check open to all in the group finder for extra comms.

Dude.... it's a gaming forum.. we are all expressing our opinions and perspectives here. Are you saying that most PvPers don't play mostly for killing aspect of PvP? Seriously?

 

It is clear to me that Bioware does use data and data analysis in conjunction with player feedback to determine changes to the game. YES. And given the number of dismissive comments in just this thread about how bad they are at using data... I'd say that confirms that even the most frustrated of PvP players believe (and object to it).

Dude, you're still sticking to that silly stereotype?

PVP fighting has a personal test aspect to it, but the fighting is a means to the end (winning), just as fighting NPCs are for PVE according to those I've PVPed with in this game and others for years and my own take on it. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

But you know all that already and obviously arguing just to argue i.e. trolling. Not constructive IMO.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are things that don't need a year to pass to be adjusted.

I understand. But it's premature to allege they will take a year to address the concerns expressed in this thread. I would not expect a change sooner then 3 months though (ie: two patch cycles.. one to gather data and feedback and one to implement changes). Heck it will take that long just to see if Arenas are even worth more effort, or if the players have dismissed them and moved on.

There are things that don't really make sense and they never should've been implemented they way they were.

Eric responded on this. You can dismiss his response of course, but it does make sense. I'm not saying people are happy with the response, just that it does makes sense. Making sense does not mean they are right, it only means they did not just pull it out of their backside.. they had a reason for it and believe their reasons are sound. As with all such decisions by MMO devs.. actual play by players will validate/invalidate the basis for their decision.

Dude.... it's a gaming forum.. we are all expressing our opinions and perspectives here. Are you saying that most PvPers don't play mostly for killing aspect of PvP? Seriously?

Yes, seriously some just don't find the content challenging and find it in facing human players, other like me enjoy objective driven games against unpredictible opponents. Other simply PvP for better gear on fresh 55, actually those who want only to kill other people do so in the contested planets.

There are people who log in section-x and stay there all day long killing lowbies and the like.

They will never give us the right to choose, people would simply not queue for arenas and their new found flavour of the month idea would be shown to be a bigger pile of garbage than we all know it is.

The solo-ranked Q gives ranked comms, i am told. That would be enough and there are people who want team deathmatch. I'm not one of them, but I am good with them having that choice. Unlike some people who don't want others to be able to chose on something that they obviously do not participate in at all.

They will never give us the right to choose, people would simply not queue for arenas and their new found flavour of the month idea would be shown to be a bigger pile of garbage than we all know it is.

I'm afraid you may be correct. They'd hate to admit to their shareholders that they spent half of the year wasting $ on something the players liked about as much as another space heroic.

so you admittedly make snarky remarks towards other players, then take offense when other players do the same. My my...

No actually. If I was truly offended by them.. I would have reported them.

I'm used to being targeted as a vent for frustrations. It comes with the turf when having a discussion with forum members about things they feel passionately about. But I will push back on them when they happen.

Eric responded on this. You can dismiss his response of course, but it does make sense. I'm not saying people are happy with the response, just that it does makes sense. Making sense does not mean they are right, it only means they did not just pull it out of their backside.. they had a reason for it and believe their reasons are sound. As with all such decisions by MMO devs.. actual play by players will validate/invalidate the basis for their decision.

I personally don't need responses that make me happy. I can settle for responses that make sense.

But Eric's response makes no sense to me. Why is it that PVP would "suffer" from two queues, when it's easier to get a group since you don't need specific roles and takes less time to complete than FPs and (certainly) OPs, but that system is good enough when specific roles are needed for most of the content and they take way longer than an Arena or even a full 10-14 min warzone?

I'm afraid you may be correct. They'd hate to admit to their shareholders that they spent half of the year wasting $ on something the players liked about as much as another space heroic.

That's not necessarily true.

A lot of people have been asking for Arenas and are tired of objective-based maps. I've even heard hardcore PVPers saying that "they don't do objectives in normal warzones" (no I'm not kidding, I have seen them write that in ops chat or heard them say it on twitch). Arenas are perfect for them and more content is always a good thing.

It's the fact that they don't give the rest of us the option to not take part in boring deathmatch that gets to me.

That's not necessarily true.

A lot of people have been asking for Arenas and are tired of objective-based maps. I've even heard hardcore PVPers saying that "they don't do objectives in normal warzones" (no I'm not kidding, I have seen them write that in ops chat or heard them say it on twitch). Arenas are perfect for them

 

It's the fact that they don't give the rest of us the option to not take part in boring deathmatch that gets to me.

I've seen the occasional post asking for Arenas, and those are usually flooded with negative responses. The only people I've really seen asking for Arenas are the same ones that like to start every pvp thread with "I was a rank blah blah season 4 gladiator in World of Suckass".

I've known Arenas were coming for awhile but didn't care, because I had no intention of doing them. Not in my wildest dreams did I think BW would try to force me to do them.

That's not necessarily true.

A lot of people have been asking for Arenas and are tired of objective-based maps. I've even heard hardcore PVPers saying that "they don't do objectives in normal warzones" (no I'm not kidding, I have seen them write that in ops chat or heard them say it on twitch). Arenas are perfect for them and more content is always a good thing.

 

It's the fact that they don't give the rest of us the option to not take part in boring deathmatch that gets to me.

Hmmmm....a lot have been asking? Nah...some have, not "a lot". Otherwise, I agree! I'm perfectly fine with there being MORE PvP options...in fact, If there were a queue for both, I'd take it...I'm looking forward to something "different". But I fear arenas will become very boring, very quickly...it's 3 maps...tiny LoS infested maps...they'll be fun from time-to-time, but I can't see them being fun long term. I hope I'm wrong...

No actually. If I was truly offended by them.. I would have reported them.

 

I'm used to being targeted as a vent for frustrations. It comes with the turf when having a discussion with forum members about things they feel passionately about. But I will push back on them when they happen.

I don't think you're being targeted as a vent for frustrations. I think it's more so your condescending remarks towards other players that often accompany your dissenting opinions that bring about negative attention from others. There is nothing wrong with having a differing opinion. Its when you attempt to hail from a stance of superiority and belittle others that you are more likely to receive such attacks. I'd be willing to bet (and have mentioned this to you in the past) that if you were to remain objective in your debates, you would be targeted far less often.

Hmmmm....a lot have been asking? Nah...some have, not "a lot". Otherwise, I agree! I'm perfectly fine with there being MORE PvP options...in fact, If there were a queue for both, I'd take it...I'm looking forward to something "different". But I fear arenas will become very boring, very quickly...it's 3 maps...tiny LoS infested maps...they'll be fun from time-to-time, but I can't see them being fun long term. I hope I'm wrong...

The term "a lot" is subjective. no need to argue over semantics regarding what percentage of the remaining population wanted arenas when there is no objective way to determine this.

Hmmmm....a lot have been asking? Nah...some have, not "a lot". Otherwise, I agree! I'm perfectly fine with there being MORE PvP options...in fact, If there were a queue for both, I'd take it...I'm looking forward to something "different". But I fear arenas will become very boring, very quickly...it's 3 maps...tiny LoS infested maps...they'll be fun from time-to-time, but I can't see them being fun long term. I hope I'm wrong...

Well, they weren't specifically asking for Arenas, but they were saying that they are tired of guarding nodes and doors and that they wanted deathmatch maps. A rose by any other name

And since owPVP is (kinda) out of the question, we got Arenas. Which I really do hope hardcore PVPers will enjoy, because it's actually the first new thing they got in a long time (other than new tiers of gear).