Wait I dont understand why slicing helps the economy.

I make a ton of credits slicing on my alts witch funds my gathering skills and my crafting/gather skills on my main. The only time I would buy anything on GTN is if it was something rare that I couldnt get my hands on... other than that, I really dont need to use GTN.

Pre-nerf slicing can be easily abused by Chinese gold sellers. In WoW, such gold sellers spend 24/7 farming the world for resource nodes to be sold on the auction house. With pre-nerf slicing, they can create doens of alts that do nothing but create money out of thin air.

Almost true. Yes chinese sellers could abuse it. But if everyone had access to their own funding, they wouldn't be buying chinese credits now, would they? This nerf in fact, helped the gold sellers because they'll get ahold of high lvl characters eventually anyway and manipulate the GTN, just like they do in other games, while new players will have no such supply of money and will turn to them for credits.

Wait I dont understand why slicing helps the economy.

 

Read the first post again.

Correct OP.

 

Inflation benefits the other trade skills, not slicing. Therefor slicing will always return the same amount, but other trade skills will get more. Slicing will become less desirable and less wanted as the other tradeskills start bringing in more money.

 

Long story short, Slicing will cause a short term cash injection into the economy but it'll drastically drop a few months out and stabilize as less people take Slicing and more people start taking others.

This.

Slicing looks attractive now.

After everyone takes slicing for a while, players will start to say, "Hmm, these items on the GTN are selling for a LOT of money. I bet I could sell those and make more..."

And they will. Thus, the system WILL balance itself.

The extra money in the economy from slicing, in the meantime, will help everyone get their speeders, level crafting, etc. which is a good thing.

The damage is already done. People are discussing economic theory on January 1st, 1930 when they really should be going to the soup kitchen or a job.

Those who saw the enormous profits possible with slicing made it a top priority to gather the credits while it lasted. Those who played "pre-release" had an opportunity to gather a massive number of credits, while those who got a later start don't have the opportunity. The credits are out there, unless BioWare took them back from those who had slicing, which I highly doubt.

Of course, perhaps it was intentional, to allow players who committed early to the game to become the 1%. But I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm sure it was just an oversight. But it is an interesting exercise in trickle down economics. Did those who got the OP credits spend them freely and raise the price of other goods? Or did they hoard them and sit back in their dark, wood-panelled offices, laughing at the poor scavengers below scrambling for credits. Please sir, can I have some more?!

Myself, I still chose the skill, post nerf. I like the idea of being able to gather credits without any extra effort. I'll be crafting BioChem as well, and gathering with BioAnalysis.

IMO, slicing is a great skill to have while leveling. I'm sure its benefit at max level is reduced. But I don't think that's so bad. Players will have it while they level to buy those fixed cost items. Then, they will switch to a different gathering profession if they want, or keep it and take other professions with their next toons.

The damage is already done. People are discussing economic theory on January 1st, 1930 when they really should be going to the soup kitchen or a job.

 

Those who saw the enormous profits possible with slicing made it a top priority to gather the credits while it lasted. Those who played "pre-release" had an opportunity to gather a massive number of credits, while those who got a later start don't have the opportunity. The credits are out there, unless BioWare took them back from those who had slicing, which I highly doubt.

 

Of course, perhaps it was intentional, to allow players who committed early to the game to become the 1%. But I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm sure it was just an oversight. But it is an interesting exercise in trickle down economics. Did those who got the OP credits spend them freely and raise the price of other goods? Or did they hoard them and sit back in their dark, wood-panelled offices, laughing at the poor scavengers below scrambling for credits. Please sir, can I have some more?!

 

Myself, I still chose the skill, post nerf. I like the idea of being able to gather credits without any extra effort. I'll be crafting BioChem as well, and gathering with BioAnalysis.

 

IMO, slicing is a great skill to have while leveling. I'm sure its benefit at max level is reduced. But I don't think that's so bad. Players will have it while they level to buy those fixed cost items. Then, they will switch to a different gathering profession if they want, or keep it and take other professions with their next toons.

Your premise is flawed. You are treating slicing's nerf like a stock market collapse. Slicing (from a send crew on mission) is more akin to printing money. If you print money, its value is diminished. The more you print the greater the inflation, which then compounds upon itself.

BW absolutely had to go this far. Beyond any scaling and bringing it more in line with others, the fact that people are working on and looking to use/using remote ways to play their characters outside of actually sitting at their PC playing (Crew skill mission app anyone?) would make anything that allows a straight hefty profit from sending crew on missions disastrous to the economy as a whole. Unless everyone has an alt with slicing and can remotely go on crew skills those that do would so devalue the currency that prices would reach astronomical amounts. Why do you think gold farming is pursued aggressively as it is elsewhere.. because people are bored and want to use countless design hours stopping creation of imaginary money?

Zimbabwe prints money (slicing). Zimbabwe goes through hyper-inflation. Zimbabwe prints more and in higher denominations - a million dollar bill for that million dollar loaf of bread (slicing). The people NOT slicing (i.e. not printing money) are still utilizing the previous denominations of currency and their buying power is diminished NOT strengthened by slicing's printing of credits.

Your premise is flawed. You are treating slicing's nerf like a stock market collapse. Slicing (from a send crew on mission) is more akin to printing money. If you print money, its value is diminished. The more you print the greater the inflation, which then compounds upon itself.

 

BW absolutely had to go this far. Beyond any scaling and bringing it more in line with others, the fact that people are working on and looking to use/using remote ways to play their characters outside of actually sitting at their PC playing (Crew skill mission app anyone?) would make anything that allows a straight hefty profit from sending crew on missions disastrous to the economy as a whole. Unless everyone has an alt with slicing and can remotely go on crew skills those that do would so devalue the currency that prices would reach astronomical amounts. Why do you think gold farming is pursued aggressively as it is elsewhere.. because people are bored and want to use countless design hours stopping creation of imaginary money?

 

Zimbabwe prints money (slicing). Zimbabwe goes through hyper-inflation. Zimbabwe prints more and in higher denominations - a million dollar bill for that million dollar loaf of bread (slicing). The people NOT slicing (i.e. not printing money) are still utilizing the previous denominations of currency and their buying power is diminished NOT strengthened by slicing's printing of credits.

Your rebuked is flawed.

We've already discussed the "Zimbabwe Problem" early in this thread. Real world inflation scenarios do not pan out in an MMO because of fix item cost and an upper limit established by a finite cost of any commercial good defined by a player's capacity to make it themselves.

If everyone has 100 million credits do you imagine the majority of users would pay 1 million credits for a stack of Chalon? Of course not. They would make an alt, and spend a fraction of that money gathering it themselves through their own missions.

Moreover, the people not "printing the money" are still gaining large profits because they are selling their goods at a higher cost, but their overhead to create these goods has not changed.

Have you seen the prices at 50? Some inflation was necessary. The amount of inflation it was providing was not. It needed a) level caps and b) a ~50% nerf (instead of the 71% nerf).

Space missions still 'inflate' the economy more than slicing anyway. They always did, even pre-nerf space missions made more credits/hour than slicing. Only difference was you couldn't have alts all making slicing. Which the level caps and a 50% nerf would have largely fixed, as then it would be more profitable to spend that time on one character and grind/farm than constantly log in/out swaps.

Your rebuked is flawed.

 

We've already discussed the "Zimbabwe Problem" early in this thread. Real world inflation scenarios do not pan out in an MMO because of fix item cost and an upper limit established by a finite cost of any commercial good defined by a player's capacity to make it themselves.

 

If everyone has 100 million credits do you imagine the majority of users would pay 1 million credits for a stack of Chalon? Of course not. They would make an alt, and spend a fraction of that money gathering it themselves through their own missions.

 

Moreover, the people not "printing the money" are still gaining large profits because they are selling their goods at a higher cost, but their overhead to create these goods has not changed.

Is it REALLY that difficult?

Consumer A: has slicing (prints money) directly

Consumer B: does not but has others which bring in mats used to make things

Consumer C: Crafter, with slicing alt.

B makes shields and crystals. Your theory relies upon the slicers paying so much for his crystals and shields that B then can afford all the other lovelies on the market. Go look at the real world. Merchants/crafters, do NOT in most cases,benefit or grow in a hyper-inflative state. What happens is B's goods are artificially higher because of slicers (A and C). A, alone, can do some of what B can do (everyone gets crafting of some sort) but also prints money to be able to buy and participate in other types of goods markets. so already, A is advantaged over B. C destroys the model by having A's advantages plus steady income on top. C can outbid to such a degree that prices escalate for goods on player market. Even if B's goods sell for twice as much - everything else B guys will also be twice as much. I.E. Vegetable prices double - farmer can suddenly buy 100% inflation cars, houses, meats, entertainment, etc? Answer, in most cases, is no.

The above doesn't even TOUCH the potential economy ruining robots/minimal control chars with five people slicing at once.. constantly and selling the credits (gold farming). This would take the above and make it worse (for anyone who doesn't participate in robot farming or buying from robots).

Having the ability to sit there.. push a couple buttons and make money strongly encourages bot development and serious gold farming. The more steps between action and end result (profit) the more difficult bot farming/similar is.

Is it REALLY that difficult?

Consumer A: has slicing (prints money) directly

Consumer B: does not but has others which bring in mats used to make things

Consumer C: Crafter, with slicing alt.

 

B makes shields and crystals. Your theory relies upon the slicers paying so much for his crystals and shields that B then can afford all the other lovelies on the market. Go look at the real world. Merchants/crafters, do NOT in most cases,benefit or grow in a hyper-inflative state. What happens is B's goods are artificially higher because of slicers (A and C). A, alone, can do some of what B can do (everyone gets crafting of some sort) but also prints money to be able to buy and participate in other types of goods markets. so already, A is advantaged over B. C destroys the model by having A's advantages plus steady income on top. C can outbid to such a degree that prices escalate for goods on player market. Even if B's goods sell for twice as much - everything else B guys will also be twice as much. I.E. Vegetable prices double - farmer can suddenly buy 100% inflation cars, houses, meats, entertainment, etc? Answer, in most cases, is no.

 

The above doesn't even TOUCH the potential economy ruining robots/minimal control chars with five people slicing at once.. constantly and selling the credits (gold farming). This would take the above and make it worse (for anyone who doesn't participate in robot farming or buying from robots).

Again, real life economics to not apply. That crystal/shield vendor has nearly zero overhead as prices increase because his material cost never changes.

Moreover, the items common to all players: banks space, inventory, speeder training, etc never inflate in price.

The items that crafter B) may buy on on the GTM (stims, crafted armor perhaps? There is very little for a player to really buy on the GTM unless they're trying to control commodities for profit) are all created by other players, and thus subject to an upper limit defined by the cost to acquire the goods on their own and independent of the player based economy instead.

Again, real life economics to not apply. That crystal/shield vendor has nearly zero overhead as prices increase because his material cost never changes.

 

Moreover, the items common to all players: banks space, inventory, speeder training, etc never inflate in price.

 

The items that crafter B) may buy on on the GTM (stims, crafted armor perhaps? There is very little for a player to really buy on the GTM unless they're trying to control commodities for profit) are all created by other players, and thus subject to an upper limit defined by the cost to acquire the goods on their own and independent of the player based economy instead.

The above is making an assumption - that the person can craft anything whereas they cannot - one can craft a small percentage of market goods.

Real life economics DO apply as this is a real economy. It may be electronic with funny sounding credits and a uber-powerful Fed but economic realities will apply. Please follow: http://wow.joystiq.com/category/gold-capped/ - guy is super smart - knows economics - and will show time and again how real world economic theories and realities influence and are present in MMO economies.

If everyone suddenly got three zeros in their credit balance prices would go up in AH as prices are set by the maximum someone is willing to pay - their is no artificial ceiling! See: WoW people buying things for obscene costs in AH that they could buy from an inn in the same town!

Procurement 101: Something is worth what someone will pay for it - not what you think it should cost or your artificial ceiling theory. Nike makes shoes. The price of the materials does not insert a ceiling on the potential sale price of said shoes. The ceiling is what people (players) will pay for the item in the market (GTN) with their money (credits).

Also - you are avoiding the gold farming issues of a few clicks and sending crew off making lots of money. Allowing that will breed farmers - guaranteed. Which will influence the economy.. yada yada yada.

Original Post

I don't see how basing value off the income of a single crew skill could ever be a good thing.

The market will adjust to compensate for what people are willing to pay for.

The above is making an assumption - that the person can craft anything whereas they cannot - one can craft a small percentage of market goods.

 

This will be my last response, because you clearly don't know enough about SWTOR's crafting skills, items, and infrastructure to discuss this topic.

So...

8 Character slots. 6 crafting skills. 4 gathering skills. 4 mission skills.

That's 14 skills spread across 24 (3x8) crafting slots. You have 10 to spare.

One person can craft is capable of making every craftable market good.

What does that leave up on the GTM? BoE Greens/Blues that drop in the world? You can craft equivalents.

Drops exclusives to Operations, perhaps? They may not be accessible to every player, so they could be a valued goo. However, if they are not accessible to every player, then they are by definition the small percentage of the market goods that you think crafted items are.

This will be my last response, because you clearly don't know enough about SWTOR's crafting skills, items, and infrastructure to discuss this topic.

 

So...

 

8 Character slots. 6 crafting skills. 4 gathering skills. 4 mission skills.

 

That's 14 skills spread across 24 (3x8) crafting slots. You have 10 to spare.

 

One person can craft is capable of making every craftable market good.

 

What does that leave up on the GTM? BoE Greens/Blues that drop in the world? You can craft equivalents.

 

Drops exclusives to Operations, perhaps? They may not be accessible to every player, so they could be a valued goo. However, if they are not accessible to every player, then they are by definition the small percentage of the market goods that you think crafted items are.

Outstanding. Pointing out how you avoid the discussion of gold farming is annoying. Plus you making the gross assumption that everyone will be able to or have 8 characters on the same server is, simply, madness.

This will be my last response, because you clearly don't know enough about SWTOR's crafting skills, items, and infrastructure to discuss this topic.

 

So...

 

8 Character slots. 6 crafting skills. 4 gathering skills. 4 mission skills.

 

That's 14 skills spread across 24 (3x8) crafting slots. You have 10 to spare.

 

One person can craft is capable of making every craftable market good.

 

What does that leave up on the GTM? BoE Greens/Blues that drop in the world? You can craft equivalents.

 

Drops exclusives to Operations, perhaps? They may not be accessible to every player, so they could be a valued goo. However, if they are not accessible to every player, then they are by definition the small percentage of the market goods that you think crafted items are.

I don't quite understand the point you two are arguing over anymore. Any game with multiple character slots (When you can effectively take up all professions) will allow you to do anything that other players can do by yourself. This is the same in WoW, yet people still happily buy things off the AH.

This effectively adds another value to items: How much time and effort does it take to get? Any crew skill for crafting requires at least around level 7-8 since you need a companion for that. Most gatherables require you to be at least level 10 (to get off the starter world. Yes I know there's some bio and scav there, but its rare enough to take this out of the equation). The problem with this value is that it's so dynamic and unpredictable, it's not worth factoring into your price-setting.

If you were arguing whether crafted items were a small percentage of the market, then both of you would have to present numbers. There's too much pseudo-arguing going on. If you don't consider a mineral a crafted item, then I'm sure that crafted items will be a small percent of total, simply because the crafted items require many materials to make. If you buy 15 different mats to make and sell 1 item, then you're at a 15:1 ratio already (6-7%). And that's not including all the augments, and dropped items, and whatever else can go on the market.

Also - you are avoiding the gold farming issues of a few clicks and sending crew off making lots of money. Allowing that will breed farmers - guaranteed. Which will influence the economy.. yada yada yada.

Except that slicing is a TERRIBLE way to make money at max level, sure.

Pretty much ANY other craft will make more money at max, especially UT.