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Vengeance / Vigilance (3.0+) PvP Guide by Zetsuma and Vesev


Dalfurend

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Heya,

 

With all the questions about Vengeance / Vigilance as it pertains to PvP, myself and Vesev went ahead and created a guide which we hope will be helpful to all of you Juggernauts / Guardians who are looking to improve their performance. This guide will be a continuous work in progress so I look forward to your feedback to help further improve on it.

 

Here it is!

 

 

For a sample of my Vengeance game play I have uploaded a video on youtube with text commentary which you can access

. Edited by Dalfurend
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Why don't you choose Sonic Wall? A 3-4k Absorb shield every 45s for friendlies is rather useful... Potentially more useful than Intercessor.

 

because there are better options.. you allready have 4 ways of mitigating incoming damage to allies through guardian leap,taunt,the mass taunt & guard.

 

so you want to pick things that increase your damage output because that is what this spec is for.

Edited by hallucigenocide
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because there are better options.. you allready have 4 ways of mitigating incoming damage to allies through guardian leap,taunt,the mass taunt & guard

 

I don't play Vengeance, just Rage these days. But I can,t see any use for Pooled Htred. Sonic Wall and Oppressor/Strangulate depending on my mood appears way better. Even if I have to admit a 7k Obliterate is *********** illarious, it's rare I even get 2 stacks before using my heavy hitters (every six GCD's).

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Why don't you choose Sonic Wall? A 3-4k Absorb shield every 45s for friendlies is rather useful... Potentially more useful than Intercessor.

 

Sonic wall is definitely something I wanted to pick up but oppressor arguably (especially in a 4v4 setting) is better defensively and offensively. At max (going by your numbers) you can absorb 12k damage every 45 s. A slow will likely keep a dps off a healer for at least a gcd or 2 which for most dps can account a for 6k+ dmg loss. More importantly - offensively - it allows me to keep dpsing without having to worry about rage or a wasted gcd and the slow is great for maximizing the dot spread. If the talent allows even 1 extra target to get dots, or makes me not have to waste any gcds because I can't catch up, it's worth it.

 

At the end of the day as a dps I want to maximize my own damage potential. I will concede that if you have someone dishing out the slows then the talent loses much of its utility, but chances are that person is a Jugg as well and should have this talent.

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because there are better options.. you allready have 4 ways of mitigating incoming damage to allies through guardian leap,taunt,the mass taunt & guard.

 

so you want to pick things that increase your damage output because that is what this spec is for.

 

Yup

 

I don't play Vengeance, just Rage these days. But I can,t see any use for Pooled Htred. Sonic Wall and Oppressor/Strangulate depending on my mood appears way better. Even if I have to admit a 7k Obliterate is *********** illarious, it's rare I even get 2 stacks before using my heavy hitters (every six GCD's).

 

I have watched some of my own videos out of curiosity to see how much I get the pooled hatred buff and it was a lot. Yeah it doesn't necessarily stack to more than 2 times, but it pretty consistent with most classes having a root / slow connected to abilities in their dps rotation it's free dmg. To reiterate, my primary objective is my own dps and that is how I choose to benefit my team. They also say the best defense is a good offense?

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I always end up taking Daunting/Intimidating Presence as a given, no matter what. There's never a situation where it's not the best utility.

 

However, I find myself oscillating between consuming rage and intercessor. Focused defense as a cleanse might come into play once...And it doesn't always seem to work the way it's supposed to. I'm just saying, I can go 2-3 matches before I use it once in a way that really makes me notice the 'utility' of the utility.

 

Intercessor oth, can be beastly in an arena situation, where who they'll be attacking is painfully obvious. Intecessor and a dash of alacrity (~5%) means I can have a 30% damage resistance buff on someone for up to half the match.

 

If you're in a 1 healer/3 DPS race, and one team is interceding religiously on their healer and the others aren't, you WILL win, or else your healer sucks. I'll even put it on a merc or sniper. It cost me a global, yes, though I can make up for it in travel time. But for every global spent maintaining it, you can buy the recipient 3 more globals on their feet.

 

If I see someone next to me being attacked, it's reflexive to tab and intercede them. And having it be 30% every 15 seconds~ instead of 20% every 20 seconds makes a big difference.

Edited by clearsighted
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I always end up taking Daunting/Intimidating Presence as a given, no matter what. There's never a situation where it's not the best utility.

 

However, I find myself oscillating between consuming rage and intercessor. Focused defense as a cleanse might come into play once...And it doesn't always seem to work the way it's supposed to. I'm just saying, I can go 2-3 matches before I use it once in a way that really makes me notice the 'utility' of the utility.

 

Intercessor oth, can be beastly in an arena situation, where who they'll be attacking is painfully obvious. Intecessor and a dash of alacrity (~5%) means I can have a 30% damage resistance buff on someone for up to half the match.

 

If you're in a 1 healer/3 DPS race, and one team is interceding religiously on their healer and the others aren't, you WILL win, or else your healer sucks. I'll even put it on a merc or sniper. It cost me a global, yes, though I can make up for it in travel time. But for every global spent maintaining it, you can buy the recipient 3 more globals on their feet.

 

If I see someone next to me being attacked, it's reflexive to tab and intercede them. And having it be 30% every 15 seconds~ instead of 20% every 20 seconds makes a big difference.

 

You bring up a fair point. I'll take a peek at it more when I play. That said, we do get a lot of dps v dps on my server, and with all the dots going out, the cleanse actually prevents a loooot of damage along with a potential break. In 3 dps and 1 healer games, I find that most of the time I have to follow up the guardian leap / intercede with a guard or the target will die anyway, which reduces the utility of the ability. There are also a lot of dots from a lot of classes, so the cleanse will always give your healer some breathing room.

 

Since you have been using it, how successful have you found it in ranked?

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You bring up a fair point. I'll take a peek at it more when I play. That said, we do get a lot of dps v dps on my server, and with all the dots going out, the cleanse actually prevents a loooot of damage along with a potential break. In 3 dps and 1 healer games, I find that most of the time I have to follow up the guardian leap / intercede with a guard or the target will die anyway, which reduces the utility of the ability. There are also a lot of dots from a lot of classes, so the cleanse will always give your healer some breathing room.

 

Since you have been using it, how successful have you found it in ranked?

 

Eh??? You do know players DoTs aren't cleansable. The standard ED and the ED with cleanse are exactly as good against DoTs. Hell you could argue the CD reduction would be a better buff to actually counter DoTs better.

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Eh??? You do know players DoTs aren't cleansable. The standard ED and the ED with cleanse are exactly as good against DoTs. Hell you could argue the CD reduction would be a better buff to actually counter DoTs better.

 

You may have just changed my life XD I had to play a game and pay very close attention to it just to make sure.

 

Aaand this is why this is a continuous work in progress. I'll update this tomorrow.

 

Good catch and thanks!

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You may have just changed my life XD I had to play a game and pay very close attention to it just to make sure.

 

Aaand this is why this is a continuous work in progress. I'll update this tomorrow.

 

Good catch and thanks!

 

In the end it doesn't really matter, because bleeds are an excellent source of healing. So negating that damage or healing from it is sort've a wash in the final result. Sort've like 2+2 = 4, but so does 2*2 = 4.

 

I've been playing vengeance constantly since the beginning, and even I had to do a double take over whether or not it was cleansing bleeds while the utility was chosen. Sometimes though, it doesn't even cleanse my stun it feels like.

 

 

Since you have been using it, how successful have you found it in ranked?

 

 

Anyhow, as for your question about intercede, I use that all the time (it's my go to), and I think it works very well. I mean, we can dole out a 6 second 30% damage resistance buff every 15s, and get a 30m jump at the same time, which also activates oppressor. (Although, my problem with oppressor, is that freezing force seems to go off twice...).

 

But anyhow, what we can do with intercede, other classes need to blow a 2m cooldown for, or even take a utility. Operatives have to take a masterful utility to even add a 20% damage reduction every 2 minutes with their adrenaline cd, and a warzone adrenal is 15% at 15 seconds once a round.

 

A jugg can keep that 30% almost half the time, pretty effortlessly. It simply isn't done much because many people don't have good 'tab friendly' hotkey setups, and have to manually click their ally before leaping.

 

CAVEAT - IF YOUR YOLO TEAM SUCKS BALLS: You will still lose. Sorry!

 

That's just yolo. I'm imp on Bastion, and because I have the misfortune of playing primetime, I sometimes have a hard time even getting 9 weekly wins. I get grouped repeatedly with Bastion's pve crowd trying to do their ranked weeklies, nutjobs and jerks who will quit out of a match at the start. My ranking is barely ~1200, despite being able to easily beat people in duels who are in the top ten. A match with me (jugg), a merc, sniper and a mara against 4 shadows or 3 shadows and a vanguard is a common match.

 

But if you're roughly even, then it can make a significant and impactful difference, which is at the same time almost entirely unnoticed, even by the person you're helping. I've spent entire matches interceding on healers, with the other players on my team being in awe of the healer's skills for their survival ability.

 

In yolo ranked games which had a rough class and skill parity, I've lost only one very close game. Unfortunately, I have to play either way late or early morning late in the week to routinely get these kind've games, and having a job makes that more difficult.

 

I'd say that's the main difference between playing a jugg and one of the OP classes at the moment, as I'm sure you can empathize. A great powertech, sorc or assassin can make up for someone on their team being sh/t. A great jugg is more of an amazing complement to decent players, but doesn't have the burst (pt+grapple) or tricks (sorc/assassin) to overcome someone on their team basically being a black hole to throw 40k damage into before they die.

 

Perhaps this'll change for season 5, after 3.1.2 hits. But the only real way for a jugg to be a pivotal difference maker is to run as a tank...and all the baggage that entails (long queue times, etc). All the best juggs on ranked are running primarily tank specs.

Edited by clearsighted
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TL;DR - Juggs are best used as support dps

 

Did I get that about right? I agree to an extent, but that's more because the fotm are real atm, and hopefully the next patch addresses some of that.

 

I was curious about what spec the other juggs/guardians were running. So far I have been only running vengeance which got me to #3 on that leaderboard atm.

 

I've been messing with other utilities at this point, but i do feel like a kid at a candy store and cannot decide, so that's gonna take a bit to be updated. Right now I am actually liking the immunity to roots on enure pain, because the amount of inquisitor roots are frustrating, and we are generally focused last anyway.

 

I'm just curious about your thoughts on this post here about accuracy.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7973745&postcount=5

 

Any reasons to go against this logic in favor of more surge/alacrity?

 

I don't fully disagree, which is why I actually run 93.3% melee acc. That said, I parsed on a dummy with less and the misses were noticable I felt, and the two extra mods to go towards alac/surge will likely not make a huge difference.

 

It's worth a try, but I would bring out a parser that can better quantify the misses and compare the two. My bias is against this, but it may just be the old ~ 95% is best stuck in my head (I legitimately felt naughty running 93.3%).

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Did I get that about right? I agree to an extent, but that's more because the fotm are real atm, and hopefully the next patch addresses some of that.

 

Yes. You tldr'd that perfectly. And I too have hopes for what the landscape will look like after the patch.

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I've been searching everywhere looking for an answer to this. Is there a diminishing return cap on strength? I'm currently upgrading my exhumed gear and I want to get my augments right. I've been back for about a month after 1.5 years away so I'm sorry for the noob question. Any info would be great! Thank you.
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I've been searching everywhere looking for an answer to this. Is there a diminishing return cap on strength? I'm currently upgrading my exhumed gear and I want to get my augments right. I've been back for about a month after 1.5 years away so I'm sorry for the noob question. Any info would be great! Thank you.

 

There is DR on the amount of crit you get per str, and I believe power augments are slightly better atm, but the margin is so slim it doesn't make a difference, at least for pvp.

 

Hope that helps

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I am new to playing guardian and need an explanation as to what you mean by "use the old 4 piece w/ new 2 piece over the new 6 piece." This is under the gearing section number 1. Since I haven't played since 2.3 what exactly do you mean by "old 4 piece?" Is there a 4 piece set bonus from gear I could have only gotten prior to 3.0 or can I still get this gear, and what is the name of the gear set? Also, to be clear I do understand how gear sets work and the mechanics I just don't know what this "old" gear set is you are referring to :D Edited by JudgeNot
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I am new to playing guardian and need an explanation as to what you mean by "use the old 4 piece w/ new 2 piece over the new 6 piece." This is under the gearing section number 1. Since I haven't played since 2.3 what exactly do you mean by "old 4 piece?" Is there a 4 piece set bonus from gear I could have only gotten prior to 3.0 or can I still get this gear, and what is the name of the gear set? Also, to be clear I do understand how gear sets work and the mechanics I just don't know what this "old" gear set is you are referring to :D

 

Gotcha!

 

The old 4 piece pvp set bonus (which is no longer available) gives you 10% damage increase for 6s (I believe) after you leap. If you pvp'd at max level you should have those armorings lying around somewhere.

 

Currently the exhumed/ dark reaver gear has a 2/4/6 set piece bonus because they included the wrist and belt into the set.

 

By wearing the "old 4 piece" with the exhumed/DR wrist and belt you can get 10 % dmg when you leap with the 2% dmg when you use sunder.

 

Looks like I have a bit of editing to do today!

 

Hope that helps clarify things!

 

PS. This only works inside WZs because it will bolster up your armor rating. Outside your damage reduction will be decreased by a good bit.

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Gotcha!

 

The old 4 piece pvp set bonus (which is no longer available) gives you 10% damage increase for 6s (I believe) after you leap. If you pvp'd at max level you should have those armorings lying around somewhere.

 

Currently the exhumed/ dark reaver gear has a 2/4/6 set piece bonus because they included the wrist and belt into the set.

 

By wearing the "old 4 piece" with the exhumed/DR wrist and belt you can get 10 % dmg when you leap with the 2% dmg when you use sunder.

 

Looks like I have a bit of editing to do today!

 

Hope that helps clarify things!

 

PS. This only works inside WZs because it will bolster up your armor rating. Outside your damage reduction will be decreased by a good bit.

 

Thank you for the quick response, that cleared up what I was trying to figure out. Also, appreciate the guide, definitely helped me

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