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Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow
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Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
12.05.2017 , 05:29 PM | #231
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
Tank only though, and not even on every fight.
I used it in Deception?

What else are you going to get, Insulation? On what is already the lowest DTPS DPS class?
Nah, I'll take that raidwide cooldown.
Evolixe | Exilove
Disciples of Babylon - Darth Malgus
Shadow/Sin Discord Server

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
12.05.2017 , 05:47 PM | #232
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
Just a quick point here about changes supposedly based on data. I don't disagree that they do have data that we are not privy to to the extent they are. The problem they [the combat 'team'] keep demonstrating that some of the changes they make are not based on data and to such a degree that it's been seen that they literally don't know how some specs actually operate. This was why I did come to a forum that was not about the class and spec I play because I was concerned that another mistake on the devs part can influence certain changes in other classes and specs. I did not post here to get my class looked at, but i did use the situation with Carnage Marauders as part of what I mentioned in my original post because it serves as a blantant example of a spec changes based entirely on a faulty premise. I'll try and be brief ,I know I tend to be long winded, I'm working on that

Carnage Marauders in 5.6 received a "utility nerf" that had nothing to do with any utility whatsoever, it was the only change on their list of utility changes that did not give a name of a utility that was being changed, how that unnamed 'utility' has been operating and how they want to change that 'utility' in 5.6. So, Carnage received a tremendous DPS nerf in a utility change patch even though the change had nothing whatsoever to do with any existing utility. This is in addition to the DPS nerf they received in 5.2. The stated purpose of the change to Carnage was that they wanted to remove clipping from the spec as it was "unintended". Okay, fine. Now anyone who plays the spec knows full well that clipping only got you one extra attack in the Berserk Ferocity window but did not need clipping to get three attacks into the non-berserk ferocity window [three second ferocity window, 3 instant attacks, doesn't take a rocket scientist to do that math], so when people raised the issue that they were losing a ton of DPS because the original carnage change wanted there to be only two attacks that could fit into any ferocity window [Beserk or non-berserk]. Which would have removed three attacks from the specs burst window which is a huge dps loss [4/3 to 2/2]. It was pointed out by players that the clipping only gave us spec one extra attack in that window, so we shouldnt be losing two attacks when clipping only provided one extra attack so, there was no justification to make the Berserk Ferocity window lose to attacks due to clipping. It was also pointed out that the non beserk window did not need to clip at all to get three attacks in it.

So what did they do? They gave one attack back to the Beserk window but did not change the amount of attacks allowed to the non-beserk window despite the fact you never needed to clip to get three attacks in it in the first place. So, for no good reason, they still withheld an extra attack without any basis to their stated change to do away with clipping. I wanted to make people aware of it, not because I was trying to rally anyone for Carnage [wrong forum for that], but to be aware of the fact changes being made may in fact be based on the lack of understanding of specs by people who are the ones effecting such massive changes to classes. They have not said one word to Carnage players as to why they are still withholding an attack that could not have been based on clipping.

When I saw the DR change for Deception during stuns, I realized what a huge effect that would have on Assassin players. If BW could do what they did to Carnage it would be foolish to think that they couldn't/woundn't do it to other specs. The basis for the DR Change to deception I cannot imagine. When everyone is getting stunned every three seconds in PVP such a big change would hurt any spec. I want players of Deception to look into the reasoning so maybe they might be able to address this change and perhaps if justified have a change made to it. Carnage didn't get everything it was owed back, but it did get part it back, so maybe Deception could get at least get a partial improvement like carnage.

Deception and Carnage are both mDPS specs, they face many of the same sorts of perils despite that they operate in different manners. mDPS already has it hard enough in this meta in PVP with the never ending hoards of Mercs and Snipers and their incessant CCs and ridiculous dcds and healing as DPS specs, these mDPS specs did not deserve such big hits. Additionally, if I'm not mistaken, Assassins are also the only class that has to spend a utility point to use it's class buff [Assassin's Shelter], that's some BS too. So yeah, sometimes bytching is justified
I dont play a mara, and never have, so i will start off with that premise, but as I understand it, the clipping nerf is something that can be easily overlooked based on the way it is implemented. The players presented a repeatable, logical argument that supports that the change needed to be re-evaluated based on the idea that they were not 100% aware of the mechanics involved. This shows that they are able to swallow their pride and are willing to reevaluate as needes, if facts (read: data) are presented.

The argument the sin population is making is not based on repeatable data or facts. It is essentially "i die faster, the change isnt merited, and i told you before it was nerfed that this would be the result." Well duh, if defensives are nerfed, u will die faster.

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
12.05.2017 , 05:57 PM | #233
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
The argument the sin population is making is not based on repeatable data or facts. It is essentially "i die faster, the change isnt merited, and i told you before it was nerfed that this would be the result." Well duh, if defensives are nerfed, u will die faster.
You can't possibly argue that a survivability nerf was warranted with the current meta on Marauders/Mercinaries and Snipers, seriously?

It was supposed to be a buff to hatred. But it shafted both DPS specs in every aspect.

You can't come to me with "Bioware has Data" when Marauders do literally everything better.
Surviving, dealing damage, staying on target. It doesn't work like that.
Evolixe | Exilove
Disciples of Babylon - Darth Malgus
Shadow/Sin Discord Server

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
12.05.2017 , 06:06 PM | #234
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
You can't possibly argue that a survivability nerf was warranted with the current meta on Marauders/Mercinaries and Snipers, seriously?

It was supposed to be a buff to hatred. But it shafted both DPS specs in every aspect.
For the average player? Not sure about you, but my sniper gets torn to shreds when i play him. It is certainly possible that i am a less than average sniper, and merc, too. Again, i think you are putting your personal experience and end game experiences firat, and not seeing it from the average player perspective.

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
12.05.2017 , 06:15 PM | #235
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
For the average player? Not sure about you, but my sniper gets torn to shreds when i play him. It is certainly possible that i am a less than average sniper, and merc, too. Again, i think you are putting your personal experience and end game experiences firat, and not seeing it from the average player perspective.
I don't see how the average players perspective really matters. I could be an average sin doing 5k dps, does that mean the class needs buffs or does that mean i need to level the up?

The game should be a balanced system at the top end. People below it will learn if they are willing.
If they aren't willing to learn then their opinion of balance doesn't really matter to begin with tbh.
Evolixe | Exilove
Disciples of Babylon - Darth Malgus
Shadow/Sin Discord Server

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
12.05.2017 , 07:41 PM | #236
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
I don't see how the average players perspective really matters. I could be an average sin doing 5k dps, does that mean the class needs buffs or does that mean i need to level the up?

The game should be a balanced system at the top end. People below it will learn if they are willing.
If they aren't willing to learn then their opinion of balance doesn't really matter to begin with tbh.
In your opinion.

In the opinion of most business models, they balance for the majority of players, and the top tier players dont represent the bulk of the playerbase best. Its admirable that they have taken the time to master their class(es) by spending more time and studying the ins and outs, but that isnt what their average player does. You may not like it, or understand it, but thats how you hold most of the players for a longer amount of time. Hardcore subs will likely swap to another toon if success is what they seek. The average player doesnt have the time or desire to level/gear alts.

ilfiriel_azurian's Avatar


ilfiriel_azurian
12.06.2017 , 05:58 AM | #237
Quote: Originally Posted by FlavivsAetivs View Post
Agreed, Infiltration is absolutely terrible in PvP now, I don't even want to go into PvP anymore on my shadow. I'd rather take my Jugg or Sent, two classes I barely know how to play, than my shadow which I've played for years into PvP now. The chain stuns and gimp damage destroy the class and any role it used to have in PvP. Can't stealth cap nodes worth a crap, can't defend nodes worth a crap, can't burst down healers, etc. etc.
This is a bit over dramatic, yes deception got need, yes our survivability is atrocious, but our burst is still there and we can do some serious damage. We were never a facetank class, it's all about finesse, everytime I get complacent and facetank I end up dying and no stun DR is gonna save me. You can still sap cap just like before, you can guard nodes just like before, deception is still good in 1v1 especially since we have stealth opener where we can hard stun our opponent for 7 seconds. I really don't have a problem with the burst right now. With everything lined up you can do at least 70-80k on your burst (3 discharges, procced maul, procced ball lightning). On SF deception sins are usually top of the score board or in the top quarter now that might be due to player skill and domination but it still is a strong class.
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olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
12.06.2017 , 06:52 AM | #238
Keep your head in the sand. Thats your decision. The perception is that you are unaware of how balance and business work, even if you are a good player.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
12.06.2017 , 07:18 AM | #239
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
Keep your head in the sand. Thats your decision. The perception is that you are unaware of how balance and business work, even if you are a good player.
As dumb as it may seems, I think Exi' has a way bigger knowledge of BW's team than any of us here, so I would advise you to watch what you're saying. You might be surprised.

Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
Nobody is willing to take responsibility for needing to change their playstyle to adjust for the changes.
I'm also waiting for you to enlighten us then. In what way does our playstyle of Deception must be changed to be "working as intended" ? You seem to have a pretty set opinion on those changes, I'm waiting for you to show us how are they well made, clever or just good ? Y'know, with actual facts, numbers and examples.
But at this point, I'm pretty sure that you're just arguing because you want to, not because you have something to say. I'm almost tempted to say that you're pulling a Bioware to us, but I won't do the comparison.
The issue here is that you're just saying "BW is gud, they have numbers not you", but again they do not play the game at all (as I already said in another post I think, but you completely ignored that, strangely). Sure, Keith plays the game, he said it, and we've seen him play.
On the other hand we have Musco for example, a "GTN warrior", who didn't even had a clue to what class was a tank the last time we saw him play an uprising live.
Or we also have the balance guy, who made a whole bunch of "utility changes" or "improvement" but didn't saw some major bugs like the double stance, the curative agent H2F or the Sonic Wall removing Static Barriers, even though he's the guy who made all of those changes, who where spotted on day one by players.

Doesn't take a whole much to admit that you're wrong y'know, and that maybe BW don't really know what they're doing with class balance... But whatever, keep arguing if you like that so much. Don't be surprised if you get less and less peoples paying attention though.
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olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
12.06.2017 , 08:32 AM | #240
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
As dumb as it may seems, I think Exi' has a way bigger knowledge of BW's team than any of us here, so I would advise you to watch what you're saying. You might be surprised.
I have read many of Exi's posts and while he does contribute insight that others may not have, he also has a perspective that does not mimic that of most players. Even with this current, ongoing "issue," he continues to bring a perspective that is not of the majority based on BW data, and isnt able to provide his own supportive data, but the content of his posts regularly show that he believes his words mean more than they do. If he knows the inner workings of BW so well, then why couldnt he have predicted or expected this change that was obviously data supported. Again, trying to get credibility without showing why he should be credible.

Quote:
I'm also waiting for you to enlighten us then. In what way does our playstyle of Deception must be changed to be "working as intended" ? You seem to have a pretty set opinion on those changes, I'm waiting for you to show us how are they well made, clever or just good ? Y'know, with actual facts, numbers and examples.
But at this point, I'm pretty sure that you're just arguing because you want to, not because you have something to say. I'm almost tempted to say that you're pulling a Bioware to us, but I won't do the comparison.
You'reinterpretting my statements incorrectly. I am not trying to prove anything. Im simply saying that many of the haters are casually ignoring facts that have been given to them based on supportive data, and many of them are ignoring the personal dynamic that goes into gaming. Not everyone adjusts easily to change, that is a fact you can go research yoirself. And i would bet money that very few people are willing to put blame on themselves for being bad at something - most prople displace the blame away from themselves, and that is inherently a flaw in their way of thinking if they trulywish to "fix" the problem. Even yours (and others) opposition to my posts show that you arent willing to accept it as a possibility. And because of that, people wont ever reach their potential.

Quote:
The issue here is that you're just saying "BW is gud, they have numbers not you", but again they do not play the game at all (as I already said in another post I think, but you completely ignored that, strangely). Sure, Keith plays the game, he said it, and we've seen him play.
On the other hand we have Musco for example, a "GTN warrior", who didn't even had a clue to what class was a tank the last time we saw him play an uprising live.
So you are going to use one moment as a basis for your argument? I see. So you are using your limited knowledge of his playstyle and skill level as a premise for him not knowing how to help develop thr game properly. Where is the flawed thinking in that?

I dont honestly expect to change your opinion or exis or many others, but people who are open-minded (even ones who dont like the changes) may develop a different perspective and understanding of the purpose of the changes by reading my posts. Or they can read all the hate and close their eyes.