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Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Kingsbount's Avatar


Kingsbount
10.02.2017 , 06:09 PM | #151
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
Lmfao, the "real experience" showed that a nerf was needed for the majority of players.
Im sorry but could you please point out where exactly a "majority of players" asked for nerfing assassin?
"Дебилы, б****дь" (с) Сергей Лавров

Hoggan's Avatar


Hoggan
10.02.2017 , 07:35 PM | #152
You want to kill that class seriously
What's next step?? (don't forget suppression of phase walk)
I think some people will leave the game after that

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
10.02.2017 , 07:49 PM | #153
Quote: Originally Posted by Kingsbount View Post
Im sorry but could you please point out where exactly a "majority of players" asked for nerfing assassin?
Re-read my post. You made a mistake.

SeCKSEgai's Avatar


SeCKSEgai
10.02.2017 , 08:51 PM | #154
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
Lmfao, the "real experience" showed that a nerf was needed for the majority of players. You are just trying to invalidate their data by giving your opinion, amd personal experience. Problem is your sample size of 1 has a much larger margin of error than their sample size of thousands.
What data? They can't have a sample size of thousands because frankly there aren't thousands of players anymore, let alone deception/infiltration players.

Essentially you are defending the dev team for some misplaced sense of loyalty when actual players of the class spec are pretty unanimous in agreement that they weren't performing excessively well - unlike say merc/trooper which practically became a mage tank with one utility.

As one of the people actually invited to beta all the 5.0 changes I can tell you that the private message boards were full of people detesting the 5.0 rng galactic command system - but they went with it anyway and it's clear population numbers have suffered - so much so that even the most populated server that is harby has seen significant decline, let alone the lesser servers.

Even in full 248s fully augged I've never felt particularly god-like or even remotely OP. There are so few HMs going on harby that the pretty gold gear is a moot point since there's so little group content going on now, especially pub side.

But hey, keep vouching for your beloved devs - based on the track record enough people will be alienated that you won't have people left to bother to complain.
Réiyn - Maryss - Rölánd - Monéy - Retrocide - Reiyñ

Rélentless - Reíyn - Rölañd - Tàtiana

BraverDre's Avatar


BraverDre
10.02.2017 , 11:58 PM | #155
This nerf was expected after they showed us "how class balance happens". Deception is a burst mDPS and should deal as much dps as sustained rDPS. So its dps should be around 9,8k-10k

nyrkverse's Avatar


nyrkverse
10.03.2017 , 11:58 PM | #156
According to the livestream, the shiny new augments available from 5.6 are not factored in their "target dps" and it's thus very possible we (dps in general, not just deception) will once again go over the target which means most of the "balancing" done so far will be at least somewhat invalidated. Let this sink in for a moment. That's 3 patches (5.4, 5.5 and 5.6) of class changes, 3 to 5 months of dev work with all the negative associations nerfs always bring. Mhm...

Although, I guess, it's still not as bad as an entirely new tier of gear after all around nerfs.

Anyway, can I have a + 5.00 % dmg to Ball lighting augment? We'll leave that 0.15 % in, as it sounds important
«I'm not cute. I'm deadly»

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
10.04.2017 , 12:48 AM | #157
Quote: Originally Posted by nyrkverse View Post
According to the livestream, the shiny new augments available from 5.6 are not factored in their "target dps" and it's thus very possible we (dps in general, not just deception) will once again go over the target which means most of the "balancing" done so far will be at least somewhat invalidated. Let this sink in for a moment. That's 3 patches (5.4, 5.5 and 5.6) of class changes, 3 to 5 months of dev work with all the negative associations nerfs always bring. Mhm...

Although, I guess, it's still not as bad as an entirely new tier of gear after all around nerfs.

Anyway, can I have a + 5.00 % dmg to Ball lighting augment? We'll leave that 0.15 % in, as it sounds important
Except that the balance changes were made to affect the class average, not end game players who may actually acquire/benefit from the new augments. From what it sounds like, the new augments will be difficult to acquire, and likely wont affect the target average of each class.

Armagius's Avatar


Armagius
10.07.2017 , 09:25 AM | #158
I took the time to test the proposed changes and their impact. My findings are as follows:

Summary
The proposed changes take the uniqueness of the Deception Assassin and Infiltration Shadow classes away to a major extent. Furthermore the dps reduction impact is huge (or alternatively takes away the classes uniqueness) - apparently a lot more than Bioware expected. In detail:

Deception Assassin and Infiltration Shadow
Both classes shine in three areas:
  1. Stealth
  2. Melee Burst Damage
  3. Melee Execution Damage

For PvE we got the following roles:
  • Spot DD
  • Off Tank
  • Stealth Mez
  • Stealth Rez

For PvP we got the following roles:
  • Defense of captured points
  • 1 versus 1
  • Execution of targets (have them dead before the pesky heal drops in)
  • Take enemy healers out of the game

Deception Assassin and Infiltration Shadow in their roles in PvE
Overall the strength of their class leads to issues in their roles. With their high burst both classes can easily receive aggro from boss monsters, while the execution of a high dmage output is difficult and demands a lot of knowledge, positioning and extremely fast reaction (to maintain the dps output). All this, while the dps output is RANDOM. With a lot of luck both classes can achieve around 15K dps in the first 20 seconds. Without luck they achieve around 11K dps in the first 20 seconds. This drops down to app. 9.3K dps after the burst phase until the execution phase starts (30% health or less of the target), where it can rise again around 10.3 K dps.

Bottom line: the shorter the length of a boss fight, the more both classe shine (shorter middle phase). The longer a boss fight and both classes start to perform increasingly worse (in dps output). Or in other words, chance plays a lesser role since the the amount of random events even out on the long run.

All this is also reflected in parsely leaderboards, where both classes shine on 500K and 1.5Mill dummies, but udnerperform at 4Mill dummies.

As a matter of fact both classes are well within the dps range and even underperfom compared to e.g. Marauders in Melee (300+ dps less).

Deception Assassin and Infiltration Shadow in PvP
In PvP it is up to the player to let the classes shine. Being in the midth of an even Melee battle usually kills both classes quite fast - despite their defs. It is crucial to avoid long Melee battles toe to toe with differing opponents of similar skill.

A player aiming for first strikes (deliver their burst damage) and then switch to targets on low health (execution damage) - such a player sure lets both classes shine. Also in single point defenses in 1vs1 and even 1vs2 situations both can shine: CC abilities + burst and execution damage.

Impact of proposed changes of Deception Assassin and Infiltration Shadow
The suggested changes do several things at once:
  1. Removal of high burst damage
  2. Removal of high execution phase damage
  3. Keeping the RANDOMness of both classes

The changes to Discharge basically remove the burst damage opener. Yet there are still alternatives with Maul, which in return break power management of both classes for long term dps output.

The reduction of execution phase damage from 5% to 3% coupled with the other changes basically brings these classes to a similar level like other classes, which also offer exection phase damage increases.

Overall
So these changes basically take away the uniqueness of both classes. Yet first results suggest, that a high damage output is still possible (yet even more random but without burst and execution phase advantages) - making these changes void. This in return requires them to use Force Cloak on cooldown (which we already did to maintain high dps) and maybe even respecc to increase power regeneration. As a result these changes also take away the uniqueness as stealthers in PvP.

So a possible result of these changes is that both classes are basically the inferior version of a Annihilation Marauder or Sentinel Watchman - except stealth is slightly better.

Or in other words: thee changes take a unique class out of game - a change is not really needed.


Alternative changes for Deception Assassin and Infiltration Shadow
Apart from above reasoning, there is a understanding why someone woudl assume both classes "overperformers" (which is actually due to RANDOMness). As such a proposed different change would be:
  1. Remove chance based procs and set their respective chance to 100% (always procs)
  2. Reduce damage of Maul (as well as the Maul based proc), while increasing the position based damage (from behind).

These two changes would decrease the dps output overall (snce the high dps parses are actually due to well-placed Mauls in a rotation), lead to a more consistent damage output, while keeping the classes uniqueness and even strenghtening the "Assassin style".

casigarian's Avatar


casigarian
10.09.2017 , 02:04 PM | #159
Quote: Originally Posted by BraverDre View Post
This nerf was expected after they showed us "how class balance happens". Deception is a burst mDPS and should deal as much dps as sustained rDPS. So its dps should be around 9,8k-10k
If you look at the average of a 2.5 mil dummy Deception is just over 9400 if you just use personal bests and just over 9300 if you use all parses on the 2.5 mil dummy. Deception is sitting at number 5 or 8 depending on which set of data you use (I personally like to use all parses for a truer average DPS) and is below carnage (another Melee Burst class that has already been "balanced". So why hit Deception with such a BIG NERF (could be close to 800 dps loss).
Casigarian

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
10.09.2017 , 02:42 PM | #160
Quote: Originally Posted by BraverDre View Post
This nerf was expected after they showed us "how class balance happens". Deception is a burst mDPS and should deal as much dps as sustained rDPS. So its dps should be around 9,8k-10k
Except that it won't do this, you can expect a dps loss of about 800, which is huge for what the class has to offer (basically, the raid utility of a Deception Sin is just its raw damage, no heals, no raid buff or protection). You can expect a dps around 9k-9k3 with those nerfs.
Until we get some sort of raid compensation (I don't mean sorc raid buff, something new), Deception won't be viable for High-End content due to it's lack of interest for groups/lack of burst in PvP.
Eliadil - Darkness Assassin Darth Malgus

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