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Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
12.06.2017 , 11:14 AM | #241
Its simple honestly, the entire argument gets debunked by the fact that unless you know how to play Assassin very well, your survivability is already going to be below average.

(DPS) Assassins survival unlike Mercs or Marauders doesn't involve just standing there and taking it.
With or without cooldowns, If you try to apply that method to this class you are going to have a really bad time.

You get most of your staying alive from taking control of the fight.
And this CAN absolutely look OP to less experienced people.
"How TF is that Assassin soloing the 2/3/4 of us together?!"
Well if this feels familiar you probably aren't using your own cooldowns right in corralation to mine.

I will attempt to read you, stay one step ahead of you all the way.
If you want to beat a good Assassin.. the way is to (unpleasantly) SURPRISE him.

The problem with your argument is that somehow apparently average joes were too sturdy, yet... those guys are the least sturdy of all Assassins. And when I reflect on myself with a half a dozen years of experience all I can conclude is that Assassin Survivability was right around average given you play the class to its fullest potential.

All the while Mercs and Maras have little control compared to us, they just have to eat most of the crap they get thrown at them. Then again those classes are built to withstand that a lot better than us.


All in all, it doesn't matter what biowares numbers say.. they do not reflect upon reality.
Evolixe | Exilove
Disciples of Babylon - Darth Malgus
Shadow/Sin Discord Server

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
12.06.2017 , 02:39 PM | #242
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
Its simple honestly, the entire argument gets debunked by the fact that unless you know how to play Assassin very well, your survivability is already going to be below average.

(DPS) Assassins survival unlike Mercs or Marauders doesn't involve just standing there and taking it.
With or without cooldowns, If you try to apply that method to this class you are going to have a really bad time.

You get most of your staying alive from taking control of the fight.
And this CAN absolutely look OP to less experienced people.
"How TF is that Assassin soloing the 2/3/4 of us together?!"
Well if this feels familiar you probably aren't using your own cooldowns right in corralation to mine.

I will attempt to read you, stay one step ahead of you all the way.
If you want to beat a good Assassin.. the way is to (unpleasantly) SURPRISE him.

The problem with your argument is that somehow apparently average joes were too sturdy, yet... those guys are the least sturdy of all Assassins. And when I reflect on myself with a half a dozen years of experience all I can conclude is that Assassin Survivability was right around average given you play the class to its fullest potential.

All the while Mercs and Maras have little control compared to us, they just have to eat most of the crap they get thrown at them. Then again those classes are built to withstand that a lot better than us.


All in all, it doesn't matter what biowares numbers say.. they do not reflect upon reality.
The argument gets debunked by providing contrary evidence and data. Whether its data from a pool of average players or from end-game l33t players, data will have your opinion actually reviewed. Still havent seen any though. Personally, i think im an above average sin, and have seen our classes strengths and weakness in the past and now, through various changes. I can absolutely see both sides of the argument, BUT my opinion on things is no more or less valuable than yours if neither of us have data/evidence to provide to BW to support our findings.

Greezt's Avatar


Greezt
12.07.2017 , 08:52 AM | #243
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
The argument gets debunked by providing contrary evidence and data. Whether its data from a pool of average players or from end-game l33t players, data will have your opinion actually reviewed. Still havent seen any though. Personally, i think im an above average sin, and have seen our classes strengths and weakness in the past and now, through various changes. I can absolutely see both sides of the argument, BUT my opinion on things is no more or less valuable than yours if neither of us have data/evidence to provide to BW to support our findings.
Can you provide such contrary evidence and data? I can very easily show that the DTPS on a sin is higher than any other class in the game, even sorcs. Passively, sins take the most damage of all classes in PvP, and actively they have very few DCDs compared to any other class apart for PT DPS (and we all know how good they're doing...) It's very easy to show these things, too.

If you say "but BW have the data!" I'm going to call BS. That's nothing but an excuse, frankly. You haven't seen that data, I haven't seen it, and you can't point me to anyone who has actually seen it. Your whole argument hinges on some ethereal evidence you can't provide, and to me that seems disingenuous at best.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
12.07.2017 , 06:20 PM | #244
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
For the average player? Not sure about you, but my sniper gets torn to shreds when i play him. It is certainly possible that i am a less than average sniper, and merc, too. Again, i think you are putting your personal experience and end game experiences firat, and not seeing it from the average player perspective.
Sniper is literally. the hardest class to bring down. I have easier time bringing down tanks and mercs. When you're melee, Sniper owns for the simple fact that Snipers, if they give that melee proper attention, can't keep them off them almost indefinitely.. Now, I'm not saying that you can always give any one enemy all you're attention, clearly you can't, but, but even for those times when you do get some uptime on snipers, and if they're worth their salt that's not often and not for very long, but at those times, their defenses are so absurd as to make the amount of damage you do minor and given that they can heal that damage is of even less concern.

Sniper's, as far as melee go, are the most OP class in the game. It was, your experience playing a Sniper that was, ironically, a case of not seeing it from the average player perspective. A skilled sniper is not getting torn to sherds. Sniper>Merc.

I'm sorry to say this to you, but if you were getting ripped to shreds it's because you were doing something very very wrong.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
12.07.2017 , 06:46 PM | #245
Quote: Originally Posted by Greezt View Post
Can you provide such contrary evidence and data? I can very easily show that the DTPS on a sin is higher than any other class in the game, even sorcs. Passively, sins take the most damage of all classes in PvP, and actively they have very few DCDs compared to any other class apart for PT DPS (and we all know how good they're doing...) It's very easy to show these things, too.

If you say "but BW have the data!" I'm going to call BS. That's nothing but an excuse, frankly. You haven't seen that data, I haven't seen it, and you can't point me to anyone who has actually seen it. Your whole argument hinges on some ethereal evidence you can't provide, and to me that seems disingenuous at best.
You say you have data regardings sins dtps - show it and make the argument. Show the method, and i will attempt to do the same test and see what data i come up with and we can compare.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
12.07.2017 , 06:56 PM | #246
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
Sniper is literally. the hardest class to bring down. I have easier time bringing down tanks and mercs. When you're melee, Sniper owns for the simple fact that Snipers, if they give that melee proper attention, can't keep them off them almost indefinitely.. Now, I'm not saying that you can always give any one enemy all you're attention, clearly you can't, but, but even for those times when you do get some uptime on snipers, and if they're worth their salt that's not often and not for very long, but at those times, their defenses are so absurd as to make the amount of damage you do minor and given that they can heal that damage is of even less concern.

Sniper's, as far as melee go, are the most OP class in the game. It was, your experience playing a Sniper that was, ironically, a case of not seeing it from the average player perspective. A skilled sniper is not getting torn to sherds. Sniper>Merc.

I'm sorry to say this to you, but if you were getting ripped to shreds it's because you were doing something very very wrong.
You proved my point for me.

Im not over on the sniper forums claiming that snipers suck and need a buff simply because my skills could be "other-than-average," and my personal experience and parses dont align with what Bioware has found from their data. Im not the only one either. I have seen other snipers torn to shreds too. It doesnt mean they fit the average mold either. Or MAYBE they/we do, and hence they werent nerfed as much.

Any of these people crying about it could be "other-than-average" too, so of course they will not have the same experience as an average player. And they may not truly understand why the nerfs happened. If you dont understand the entire context of the scenario, things can easily be misunderstood. Its like starting to watch a new movie halfway through and guessing as to what is going on.

Yorioko's Avatar


Yorioko
01.12.2018 , 07:34 AM | #247
And none of these "overperfomances" are ever seen in the main pve portion of the game.

I have had to respec almost every character almsot every time some PVP player screams out about how a class perfomes in what is less than 10% of the game.

When are we ever going to see a PVE favoring class change?

I didn't know the 10%(ish) of the game was THAT important.

I am getting rather tired of these constant class changes to cater to a minor minority at the expense of the overall majority.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
01.12.2018 , 07:37 AM | #248
Quote: Originally Posted by Yorioko View Post
And none of these "overperfomances" are ever seen in the main pve portion of the game.

I have had to respec almost every character almsot every time some PVP player screams out about how a class perfomes in what is less than 10% of the game.

When are we ever going to see a PVE favoring class change?

I didn't know the 10%(ish) of the game was THAT important.

I am getting rather tired of these constant class changes to cater to a minor minority at the expense of the overall majority.
Lol mate becayse you thought that this was asked by PvP players ? XD
Nobody asked for that, we got hit anyways. :')
Eliadil - Darkness Assassin Darth Malgus

Feel free to use my referal link if you liked my help ! Free stuff for you and me !

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
01.12.2018 , 04:38 PM | #249
Quote: Originally Posted by Yorioko View Post
And none of these "overperfomances" are ever seen in the main pve portion of the game.

I have had to respec almost every character almsot every time some PVP player screams out about how a class perfomes in what is less than 10% of the game.

When are we ever going to see a PVE favoring class change?

I didn't know the 10%(ish) of the game was THAT important.

I am getting rather tired of these constant class changes to cater to a minor minority at the expense of the overall majority.
I really have to agree with the above poster, it isn't fair to see that nerfs are always coming because of PVPer complaints. It's really not true.

At this point in the game, having played since 1.x I am now pretty much just a PVPer. But, prior to 5.0 I was a progression raider [HM/NiM] and spent most of the those years basically solely doing PVE. I just started to try out PVP really in the middle of 4.0. So I really am, even know, very sympathetic to PVEs needs. Even though I don't really PVE anymore, I always keep an eye out for both PVE and PVP. Raiding was my passion for years. I don't feel more predisposed to what's best for PVP over PVE.

I can tell you as a Carnage Marauder, the nerfs to Carnage in 5.4 and 5.6 were solely based on PVE. Carnage was not overperforming in PVP, but was in PVE. That was definately a nerf for PVE that had effects on PVP that weren't deserved.

Anyways, if you really want to get an idea about what nerfs you can lay at the feet of PVPers, it's very easy to find out, all you'd need to do is go into the PVP forum and look up posts calling for nerfs or class balance issues from the time 5.0 dropped [even before because they announced some changes prior] until 'class balancing" patches began [which of course only made the class balance worse]. If you took the time to really look into it you would find that the only nerfs pvpers were calling for a longggggggg time, were to mercs and snipers because of their OP DCDs. DPS nerfs, were never ever even talked about until BW started nerfing almost every spec in the game.

BW's "class balance" strategy is inherently flawed. They're the ones to blame wholely and totally. Consider that BW literally nerfed almost every spec in the game, you can't possibly lay the blame for that on either PVPers or PVEers because they both got a majority of specs nerfed. Lose/Lose. Plenty of blame to go around, but mostly it lies with BW. Anyone recall anyone calling for nerfs to Lightning Spec? They got nerfed too. - I don't recall anyone bytching about Assassin's stun DR, but that went for some unknown illogical reason.

This PVE/PVP animosity thingy is nothing new. PVPErs want to say that PVEers have no skill because everything is scripted [which is BS] and PVEers want to say PVP is a joke because it's just players bashing each other over the head in a mass war to the death with no real rotations or strategies that need to be skillfully kept to.

The best PVPer ever, if he had no real raiding experience would be the worst of the lot if they tried to do HM/NiMs, if it even got far enough not to just result in a raid wide wipe which it would in NiM. Conversely, the best Raider who had cleared 26/26 NiM, would get his *** ripped apart in about 5 seconds even in Regs repeatedly if he went into it with little PVP experience. They're separate beasts, both requiring skill but of a different sort from one another. Anyone who said differently I would call an idiot.

We play the same game, we love the same Star Wars, we want to excel in our favored play style. The pointing of fingers at one another is just two groups of kids flipping each other off because of which side of the street they live on.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
01.12.2018 , 05:03 PM | #250
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
I really have to agree with the above poster, it isn't fair to see that nerfs are always coming because of PVPer complaints. It's really not true.

At this point in the game, having played since 1.x I am now pretty much just a PVPer. But, prior to 5.0 I was a progression raider [HM/NiM] and spent most of the those years basically solely doing PVE. I just started to try out PVP really in the middle of 4.0. So I really am, even know, very sympathetic to PVEs needs. Even though I don't really PVE anymore, I always keep an eye out for both PVE and PVP. Raiding was my passion for years. I don't feel more predisposed to what's best for PVP over PVE.

I can tell you as a Carnage Marauder, the nerfs to Carnage in 5.4 and 5.6 were solely based on PVE. Carnage was not overperforming in PVP, but was in PVE. That was definately a nerf for PVE that had effects on PVP that weren't deserved.

Anyways, if you really want to get an idea about what nerfs you can lay at the feet of PVPers, it's very easy to find out, all you'd need to do is go into the PVP forum and look up posts calling for nerfs or class balance issues from the time 5.0 dropped [even before because they announced some changes prior] until 'class balancing" patches began [which of course only made the class balance worse]. If you took the time to really look into it you would find that the only nerfs pvpers were calling for a longggggggg time, were to mercs and snipers because of their OP DCDs. DPS nerfs, were never ever even talked about until BW started nerfing almost every spec in the game.

BW's "class balance" strategy is inherently flawed. They're the ones to blame wholely and totally. Consider that BW literally nerfed almost every spec in the game, you can't possibly lay the blame for that on either PVPers or PVEers because they both got a majority of specs nerfed. Lose/Lose. Plenty of blame to go around, but mostly it lies with BW. Anyone recall anyone calling for nerfs to Lightning Spec? They got nerfed too. - I don't recall anyone bytching about Assassin's stun DR, but that went for some unknown illogical reason.

This PVE/PVP animosity thingy is nothing new. PVPErs want to say that PVEers have no skill because everything is scripted [which is BS] and PVEers want to say PVP is a joke because it's just players bashing each other over the head in a mass war to the death with no real rotations or strategies that need to be skillfully kept to.

The best PVPer ever, if he had no real raiding experience would be the worst of the lot if they tried to do HM/NiMs, if it even got far enough not to just result in a raid wide wipe which it would in NiM. Conversely, the best Raider who had cleared 26/26 NiM, would get his *** ripped apart in about 5 seconds even in Regs repeatedly if he went into it with little PVP experience. They're separate beasts, both requiring skill but of a different sort from one another. Anyone who said differently I would call an idiot.

We play the same game, we love the same Star Wars, we want to excel in our favored play style. The pointing of fingers at one another is just two groups of kids flipping each other off because of which side of the street they live on.
You call it a nerf, I call it rebalancing and correction. The process is definitely credited to BW, at least the majority. However, what caused it to get to the point of needing a complete rebalancing was the fault of the BW AND the players. In the past, as most MMOs do, they continued to overbuff classes due to player suggestions and requests because their class was lacking equality with other classes or because they "needed" a buff. BW unfortunately went along with it to appease the public, and well, how did that public view turn out? Anyways, now that most classes were overbuffed and every aspect of balance was destroyed, they needed to perform this class rebalance. It was necessary for any balance going forward. Is it perfect? No. Is it ever gonna be perfect? Likely not either.