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Ranged facetanking melee

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Ranged facetanking melee

Metthew's Avatar


Metthew
03.30.2019 , 07:55 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by varietasplus View Post
Two mara on a team or a mara and a PT on a team usually results a defeat,
A PT in any team will usually result in defeat - this is just conflating the issue, and is a bad argument.
Erhart / Wilhemine | Darth Malgus | <Take a Seat>

Soljin's Avatar


Soljin
03.30.2019 , 10:12 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by varietasplus View Post
Would be nice with upcoming patch 6.0 if ranged classes would at least provide the illusion of not having good defense, mobility and equivalent damage output as a melee class at the same time. Makes melee inferior, you know. Current state of snipers and sorc DPS is beyond absurd, they don't even bother to move. And there are the mercs with 3 lives. Playing melee nowaways seems pretty masochistic. Working as intended, I guess.
They decided to move away from mobility and start trying to make ranged survival have an element of tankiness and broke the concept behind ranged vs melee AKA high mobility and escapes (kiting).

I don't agree w/ the Sorc comment but Merc and Sniper are way over the top tanky for ranged classes....

I always viewed the concept of Sniper as a ranged class that was a ranged class killer...Stationary but superior in range and damage and defenses to other ranged classes...not melee and by that I mean they should have high mobility to deal with melee but when they want to utilize their superior ranged killing skills they have to sacrifice their mobility for that period. Its a trade off scenario, defense for superior fire power that makes them vulnerable to melee. Melee vulnerability would be in the form that their defenses are much weaker to melee attacks and very strong to ranged attacks when stationary.

Merc should have been designed with lots of (gadget) based escape mechanics not heals and shield godliness that can face tank any class in the game while laughing and pumping out massive damage....I have had a Merc since day 1 launch and they were very weak for a long time. I don't want to say they over buffed them more that they took the class defenses in the wrong direction for a ranged class.

Sorc is fine design wise it just needs some number tweaks.
I want my SWG...
#Remove RnG
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varietasplus's Avatar


varietasplus
03.31.2019 , 12:39 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
Bioware should certainly fix class stacking/class imbalance in ranked matchmaking, but that doesn't really connect to your previous points. Also, I've seen plenty of 4 melee dps teams win, and teams with 2 good maras probably win a majority of the time. Again, if you are losing on mara that frequently, that is not the game's fault, but you keep implying that it is.
Okay, I think I know why you are forcing this "you are bad" approach. Appart from class stacking, there is a serious problem with ELO. As fas as I know, instead of forming 4 vs 4 groups of small interval of ELO, they do the contrary and dip into the largest pool possible, totally ignoring player class and group composition. When this method is put into practise, one may find themselves in an unbreakable negative spiral.

When season started, I was reaching high as fast as possible. Then suddenly I found myself surrounded by totally clueless people. At that rating level, one bad player was an inevtitable defeat. I lost a 100 rating that day. The following day I got 2 clueless people all the time and to make it worst, they were usually melee/PT/stealth, so I lost another 100 rating.

And it is getting worse day by day, losing rating constantly, now I am beyond the point of no return, because everyone is braindead. There is always someone with zero or max 40k damage, our team does not move together, melee charge in without a second thought and happility runs up the bridge/platform to fight just to be pushed down. There is no focus or utilizing defense skill appropriately. So ultimately I am usually to last one to die and have highest damage done.

Feel free to think I am a bad player, but the reality is that once you have got into a negative spiral, you can not climb back, especially with all these PVE players who are not even ready for a warzone.

I read your post in a different thread claiming you find current ELO system better than any suggested alternative as opposed to other forumers. Having under- and overperforming classes, class stacking issue in matchmaking and immeasurable skill differences among players, I fail to see any reason to support current ELO system, having seen where it leads to. But my skills, mara viability and ELO system is off-tipoc, so please leave it be.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
03.31.2019 , 07:58 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by varietasplus View Post
Okay, I think I know why you are forcing this "you are bad" approach. Appart from class stacking, there is a serious problem with ELO. As fas as I know, instead of forming 4 vs 4 groups of small interval of ELO, they do the contrary and dip into the largest pool possible, totally ignoring player class and group composition. When this method is put into practise, one may find themselves in an unbreakable negative spiral.

When season started, I was reaching high as fast as possible. Then suddenly I found myself surrounded by totally clueless people. At that rating level, one bad player was an inevtitable defeat. I lost a 100 rating that day. The following day I got 2 clueless people all the time and to make it worst, they were usually melee/PT/stealth, so I lost another 100 rating.

And it is getting worse day by day, losing rating constantly, now I am beyond the point of no return, because everyone is braindead. There is always someone with zero or max 40k damage, our team does not move together, melee charge in without a second thought and happility runs up the bridge/platform to fight just to be pushed down. There is no focus or utilizing defense skill appropriately. So ultimately I am usually to last one to die and have highest damage done.

Feel free to think I am a bad player, but the reality is that once you have got into a negative spiral, you can not climb back, especially with all these PVE players who are not even ready for a warzone.

I read your post in a different thread claiming you find current ELO system better than any suggested alternative as opposed to other forumers. Having under- and overperforming classes, class stacking issue in matchmaking and immeasurable skill differences among players, I fail to see any reason to support current ELO system, having seen where it leads to. But my skills, mara viability and ELO system is off-tipoc, so please leave it be.
So, I'll take the last point first. I think you misinterpreted my comment in the other thread. I think the new matchmaking is superior to the old matchmaking. There are still a lot of other problems with the current system, and I've discussed that elsewhere too. I'm not opposed to totally revamping the ELO system with a points-based system that others have suggested.

Also, your post reads like one of the "forced streaks" posts on the overwatch forums. I've frequently lost over 100 elo in a day, but I can always gain it back over time. If you resolve to queue a lot on one character, you can certainly get some bad luck and go on some loss streaks, but that's normal. There's no such thing as a "negative spiral."

Banderal's Avatar


Banderal
03.31.2019 , 09:00 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
There's no such thing as a "negative spiral."
I have nothing constructive to contribute to this thread, but I just want to say that "negative spiral" is a great name for a character, or a band.

Slippery When'wet, FistFullOfCandy - SF

Soljin's Avatar


Soljin
03.31.2019 , 10:04 AM | #36
Out of all the "Let's Discuss Ranked PvP" threads out there this is not one of them... Get back on topic or move the ranked discussion to one of the many relevant threads.
I want my SWG...
#Remove RnG
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DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
03.31.2019 , 10:35 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by varietasplus View Post
Would be nice with upcoming patch 6.0 if ranged classes would at least provide the illusion of not having good defense, mobility and equivalent damage output as a melee class at the same time. Makes melee inferior, you know. Current state of snipers and sorc DPS is beyond absurd, they don't even bother to move. And there are the mercs with 3 lives. Playing melee nowaways seems pretty masochistic. Working as intended, I guess.
Remove all of the gap closers and the need for the ranged to have so many defense is negated.

That, and for mercs/mandos at least, go a slightly different route and tone down their defenses but up their mobility more. For example, give them back rocket punch (with a root) and have it reduce the CD of Hydraulic Overrides and Rocket Out by 3-4 seconds similar to how Force Scream/Blade Storm do for jug/guardian taunts.

But as it is right now, with leaps being 30 meters and merc/mando range being 30 meters, they really don't have an option but face tanking when they get lept to.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
03.31.2019 , 11:32 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Soljin View Post
Out of all the "Let's Discuss Ranked PvP" threads out there this is not one of them... Get back on topic or move the ranked discussion to one of the many relevant threads.
Ironic that your post contributes nothing to the discussion and is completely off topic. The only thing more annoying than an argument you don't care about is the person trying to break it up.

Soljin's Avatar


Soljin
04.01.2019 , 08:47 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by DariusCalera View Post
Remove all of the gap closers and the need for the ranged to have so many defense is negated.

That, and for mercs/mandos at least, go a slightly different route and tone down their defenses but up their mobility more. For example, give them back rocket punch (with a root) and have it reduce the CD of Hydraulic Overrides and Rocket Out by 3-4 seconds similar to how Force Scream/Blade Storm do for jug/guardian taunts.

But as it is right now, with leaps being 30 meters and merc/mando range being 30 meters, they really don't have an option but face tanking when they get lept to.
This makes sense but I don't agree with removing gap closers. Gap closers should be medium ranged skills that only become relevant if the target player is caught off guard or has burned all their escape CD's and thus is rightfully at a disadvantage. To keep game play exciting make the escapes and medium range gap closers remain on relatively short CD's making kiting potentially allow for CD's to come back up if done really well.

Melee should have all short range skills (minus medium range gap closer previously mentioned) including roots and snares that allow them to lock down a character but only at short range and basically destroy them if they are ranged because they should have fairly weak melee defense (Although that is not the case now).

This is all basic stuff not sure how it got to where it is now w/ ranged heal/shield tanks...

I understand the difficulty with PT/Vanguard as it was originally designed as a medium ranged class but the rest should have fallen right into very specific archetypes for melee and ranged design...Not bagging on the game but the combat is very basic and was always way inside the box...it's seems to me that someone along the way just decided to ignore common sense.
I want my SWG...
#Remove RnG
Refer a friend link: http://www.swtor.com/r/rqkzQz