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Hutt Ball type maps pops 2 out of 3 maps constantly

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Hutt Ball type maps pops 2 out of 3 maps constantly
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Bullyabass's Avatar


Bullyabass
03.26.2019 , 04:01 PM | #111
Option 3 for me please Bob, make maps selectable. Fewer pops but at least the people you're playing with want to be there. Also Option 4, pvp ignore. If I want more pops then I toggle all the maps and clear out my ignore list. If I want better quality then I accept the increased wait time.

Also on your "every map has an equal chance" point. Haven't read the whole thread so not sure if this has been covered but, if a map is hated then it will appear to pop more than one that is loved. Let's say everyone hates Vandin (who could!) and half the players leave as soon as they zone in then get backfilled. Then 8 people get the first pop, 4 leave and 4 backfills, 2 leave and 2 backfills then 1 leaves and 1 backfill with a 50/50 on leaving or staying. So 15 (and a half) people just effectively experienced a Vandin pop and flounce to the forums for a good old whinge. By contrast everyone loves Odessen (who couldn't!) since it is the best map so 8 people pop all 8 stay and mournfully ask each other why Odessen (proven as the best map by Science) appears to pop half as often as Vandin.

Apologies if someone else mentioned this already, I'm old and long threads are beyond me now

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
03.26.2019 , 04:09 PM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by Bullyabass View Post
Option 3 for me please Bob, make maps selectable. Fewer pops but at least the people you're playing with want to be there. Also Option 4, pvp ignore. If I want more pops then I toggle all the maps and clear out my ignore list. If I want better quality then I accept the increased wait time.
FYI, your ignore list doesn’t stop you popping with the people on it. That only works with pve queues,

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
03.26.2019 , 04:25 PM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by Bullyabass View Post
Option 3 for me please Bob, make maps selectable. Fewer pops but at least the people you're playing with want to be there.
Again, people have a variety of reasons for being in a given warzone map that may have nothing to do with the same reasons as their teammate. The biggest issue IS the warzone map popping regularly, regardless of which map it is. I think people are overanalyzing this, and not thinking big picture and health of the game.

LD_Little_Dragon's Avatar


LD_Little_Dragon
03.26.2019 , 11:19 PM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
Again, people have a variety of reasons for being in a given warzone map that may have nothing to do with the same reasons as their teammate. The biggest issue IS the warzone map popping regularly, regardless of which map it is. I think people are overanalyzing this, and not thinking big picture and health of the game.
The big picture is that backfills are not a whole lot of fun. I've been getting, if I'm lucky, 1 warzone out of 3 that isn't either a last minute (like 10s before the gate opens) backfill or an actual mid-way through the match backfill.

You can filter which flashpoints you que for, and yet you can't even select to que for a 4v4 only or an 8v8 only match.

Making pvp players always que for 4v4 and 8v8 at the same time is similar to what making pve players always que for OPs, Uprisings and Flashpoints at the same time would be. GF would die fast if half the time you wanted a flashpoint you got dumped into an operation (or vice-versa).
Stealthy heals, stealthy dps, stealthy tank.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
03.27.2019 , 05:53 AM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by LD_Little_Dragon View Post
The big picture is that backfills are not a whole lot of fun. I've been getting, if I'm lucky, 1 warzone out of 3 that isn't either a last minute (like 10s before the gate opens) backfill or an actual mid-way through the match backfill.

You can filter which flashpoints you que for, and yet you can't even select to que for a 4v4 only or an 8v8 only match.

Making pvp players always que for 4v4 and 8v8 at the same time is similar to what making pve players always que for OPs, Uprisings and Flashpoints at the same time would be. GF would die fast if half the time you wanted a flashpoint you got dumped into an operation (or vice-versa).
There are too many factors unique to ops, fps, and uprisings vs pvp, that a comparison cant be made for a queue selection system, or a guaranteed improvement upon the current system by its implementation. A queue selection would break the game more unless there was significant compensation for joining less popular ones, or significant punishment for leaving a match in the games current state.

Bullyabass's Avatar


Bullyabass
03.27.2019 , 07:33 AM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
FYI, your ignore list doesn’t stop you popping with the people on it. That only works with pve queues,
i am aware, I add them as friends and leave if the pop has too many such "friends" in it but a proper PVP ignore would seem a lot simpler.

Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
Again, people have a variety of reasons for being in a given warzone map that may have nothing to do with the same reasons as their teammate. The biggest issue IS the warzone map popping regularly, regardless of which map it is. I think people are overanalyzing this, and not thinking big picture and health of the game.
Well of course they do my flustered friend. And they should be free to reason their reasons. I just don't want to play with them. And THAT is the big picture. I'm not legally required to play this game (softest community service order EVER! Jussie himself would be saying "Really are you sure? That doesn't seem fair") so if I'm pushed into content I don't enjoy I'll just push off elsewhere.

varietasplus's Avatar


varietasplus
03.28.2019 , 05:06 AM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
This thread isn’t just for me or my personal wants or needs. I made it because I want pvp to be successful and I believe the needs of the majority of the pvp population out weight the needs of the few.
If the majority just want to fight and kill and ignore the objectives. Then the heavy combat maps need to pop more than the objective maps.
And this is where the fundaments of our unresolvable debate lies. Based on the last month's experience, current player base - safe a moderate fraction - does not care about objectives AT ALL. There is little to none correlation between map type (objective complexity) and objective awereness or combat focused player happiness.

Those who ignore objectives, ignore it on ALL MAPS, therefore it is irrelevant whether they do not pay attention to the ball or VS door or turret cap. They are not going to defend, cap or interrupt anything, they are not going to gather orbs or mods. They will always be fighting at mid (even if side turrets are both captured by their own team or even unoccupied), because mid is closest to spawn point and the brainless button smashing. This happens almost in every warzone, therefore namecalling and frustration is reaching unprecedented extremity.

They are moving in hordes, globalling players trying to focus on objectives and don't bother if they lose the match. The solution to this problem is not to reduce the pop ratio of HB, but to:
1. Drive objective-ignorant players away from regular warzones. Create a "B" type of each warzone map with disabled objectives in a separate queue and let them fight whereever they want. Team with most kill wins. Good riddance.
2. Dramatically increase the reward differene between wins and loss (5:1).
3. Don't mess with pop ratio, don't pack maps. Had 3 pieces of 3-pointed maps in a raw and became boring and frustrating pretty quickly with the stupidity of current player base.

The HB pop issue - which does seem to be a valid one - is most likely an underlying IT (programming) randomiztaion problem that needs to be addressed in a different manner.

Bullyabass's Avatar


Bullyabass
03.29.2019 , 04:48 AM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by varietasplus View Post
They are moving in hordes, globalling players trying to focus on objectives and don't bother if they lose the match. The solution to this problem is not to reduce the pop ratio of HB, but to:
It's worse on the US servers. I'd say maybe 1 in 10 US "warzone" streamers even pretends to play objectives. End of game, click, sort by damage done. "Top dmg!!!" /bkiss. Lost 6-0.

We could wander into a "Europeans aren't as ego obsessed" fake science discussion but I'm inclined to credit Snave's influence on DM. He's completely objective focused in warzones and that rubs off on the people who watch him and play with/against him and that then rubs off on the wider community.

There are plenty of ways of fixing it but as long "pop speed trumps all" is Requirement #1 then not much will change.

Quote: Originally Posted by varietasplus View Post
The HB pop issue - which does seem to be a valid one - is most likely an underlying IT (programming) randomiztaion problem that needs to be addressed in a different manner.
I have very little faith in the EA Austin dev team but I'm pretty sure even they couldn't mess up a random number generator. Arguably RNG is their specialization.

varietasplus's Avatar


varietasplus
03.29.2019 , 10:38 AM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by Bullyabass View Post
I have very little faith in the EA Austin dev team but I'm pretty sure even they couldn't mess up a random number generator. Arguably RNG is their specialization.
I did not imply devs messed it up. The underlying problem is that there is no "real", just pseudo random number generation in programming, I don't want to go into details. Knowing this, it is imperative a good programmer takes it into consideration when developing a program (in this case: warzone queues). The RNG you refer to in a funny, sarcastic way is a design matter, whereas the queue problem is a coding issue, I would not even call it a bug, but it needs to be addressed.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
03.29.2019 , 07:07 PM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by Bullyabass View Post
It's worse on the US servers. I'd say maybe 1 in 10 US "warzone" streamers even pretends to play objectives. End of game, click, sort by damage done. "Top dmg!!!" /bkiss. Lost 6-0.

We could wander into a "Europeans aren't as ego obsessed" fake science discussion but I'm inclined to credit Snave's influence on DM. He's completely objective focused in warzones and that rubs off on the people who watch him and play with/against him and that then rubs off on the wider community.
This is what’s happened from my perspective.

With the Merge, the number farmers and a large part of the American ranked community was stuck on Satele Shan.
The remaining pvpers were on Star Forge. I’d already moved some Alts to the east coast for pve and to take a break from some of the pvp trolls.

When the servers were moved to the east coast, I decided not to go back to Satele Shan as my primary pvp server and instead stayed on Star Forge because people on SF wanted to play to win over number crunching. The mind set was better. It was friendly and people would offer to help others and chat.
Yes, there were still death match people about and number crunchers. But the attitude in pvp was more relaxed and the majority played to win. That meant trying to play the objectives and helping each other.

Then Satele Shan started to decline in numbers and slowly there were people transferring from Satele to Star Forge. These people brought their bad attitude and less than friendly banter and trollish whining to SF. They also braught enough number crunchers to change the balance from people trying to win with objectives to people following a herd around the map to see who could get the highest numbers.

This behaviour has just spread like a cancer on SF as more and more transfer from SS and it’s been teaching any new people to play like this. New players do what the more experienced players do because they are learning and don’t know what to do. This is breeding more bad behaviour or attitude towards winning matches because when the “less skilled people” see the “kings” of dps saying that winning or regs don’t matter, then they don’t try to win either.
This whole thing has started to get worse the more players transfer. Star Forges pvp culture has completely changed in the last 4-5 months and I think it’s irreparable.

I wish we had people like Snave who stream and show people how to win with objectives. Having some streamers willing to buck the trend on Star Forge and promote objective play over number crunching would be awesome. But I think most are too scared of being told they are bad players if they don’t top the dps.
It would also be great if we had a Snave and friends group willing to train people on Star Forge.

Snave🧔🏻 Any chance you guys might go on a server Safari to Star Forge and take your training on the road 🆘? Maybe even some streaming adventures to Star Forge a few times a month
Team up with Krea and do joint streams.