Character name: Buttercup

Server: Basilisk Droid, Europe.

I have played healer characters in several MMO’s. In SWTOR, this is a sage. It is the only character I play, and I dare say, I'm not that bad at it. I mainly play PvP. I selected the sage on the premise that it would be a good healer class. Squishy, but if well played, you can heal the way healers ought to heal.

I never felt “OP”.

I am concerned. We have had more posts in - and views of - the sorc/sage nerf 1.2 thread than any thread this forum has ever had.

I have followed the 1.2 sorc nerf thread since the new patchnotes were announced. Every day. Because I realized that from the very moment I read them that the changes would kill the logic that was put into the healer tree of the sorc/sage. I will not explain this statement; it is not for this thread and has been argued, explained and re-argued ad nauseam in other threads.

My main concern is the lack of communication to the sages/sorcs from Bioware regarding this issue. My experience in MMO’s is that if you kill a big healer class, you kill the game. But even more so, if you kill logic in a class, even if you believe this is only everyone's "perception", lack of communication is lethal. I have seen the downfall of several MMO’s start with this very mistake.

I implore the developers to write a reaction to the 1.2 sorc nerf thread asap. It is the sole purpose of this post.

Don’t move this thread inside another thread. This post is about communication regarding the changes on the PTS, rather than the changes themselves.

Please Bioware, start communicating. I have played your games since Baldur’s gate. I am baffled at what is happening right now.

They've stated their reasoning for PVE purposes, didn't they? Claiming Sorcs were too powerful and the reason for making nightmare modes simplistic. All because of a bug.

One bug that made PvP healing = God Mode* for sorc healers (*Usually, unless there were a competent melee on the opposing team) and made healing Nightmare modes extremely simplistic. (coupled with the somewhat infinite Force supply)

The thing Bioware needs to respond to is this (and only this):

PVP: How do you think removing a Sorc/sage's only burst heal (1.4 dark infusion from resurgence) makes them Balanced with other healers who have shorter cast times on their "big heal" and higher output on their 1.5 second cast heals in a rated Warzone . (Which is clearly Biowares PVP focus)

That change/question alone is the reason you won't see Sorcs/sages in Rated WZ's.

They've stated their reasoning for PVE purposes, didn't they? Claiming Sorcs were too powerful and the reason for making nightmare modes simplistic. All because of a bug.

 

One bug that made PvP healing = God Mode* for sorc healers (*Usually, unless there were a competent melee on the opposing team) and made healing Nightmare modes extremely simplistic. (coupled with the somewhat infinite Force supply)

 

The thing Bioware needs to respond to is this (and only this):

 

PVP: How do you think removing a Sorc/sage's only burst heal (1.4 dark infusion from resurgence) makes them Balanced with other healers who have shorter cast times on their "big heal" and higher output on their 1.5 second cast heals in a rated Warzone . (Which is clearly Biowares PVP focus)

 

That change/question alone is the reason you won't see Sorcs/sages in Rated WZ's.

Exactly what he said. They gave their definition of justification for the changes. They just haven't acknowledged the one thing that will cripple that tree in PvP.

And with 0 motivation to test for those of us who didn't get a character copied over to the PTS, there won't be enough testers to give feedback, IMO.

BW Dev "I once beat on a sorc healer for 15 seconds on my marauder and didn't kill him."

Another BW Dev "Yeah, well, I was once killed by a sorc hybrid on my marauder."

BW Dev "KK, let's nerf every aspect of the sorc class, just to be thorough so that this can never happen again.... now, back to playing my marauder."

BW Devs- They like marauders.

Please Bioware, start communicating. I have played your games since Baldur’s gate. I am baffled at what is happening right now.

Interesting note: this is NOT the same Bioware that produced such hit RPGs as Balder's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Dragon Age. Those were all developed by Bioware's Edmonton studio. SWTOR was developed by Bioware's Austin studio, with only limited contribution from the Edmonton studio. Same company, completely different developers.

Also note that all of those games (excluding DAO) were produced before the 2007 EA acquisition of Bioware Studios. Bioware has been declining since, in particular because of EA's influence. EA isn't exactly known for making amazing games, nor caring too much about their customers. In fact, the only series produced by an EA-owned company that I really enjoyed (and thought was seriously innovative) was Crysis. I exclude Mass Effect and DAO from consideration, as Mass Effect 1 was released before EA bought Bioware, and DAO only about a year afterwards and thus was already most of the way along its development curve.

I love that this was moved from the PTS forum. What a spit in the face. Talk about treating your customers poorly...

I've already unsubscribed because of the issue the OP describes here. There's just no respect from this company for paying customers. My advice: if you want BioWare to start listening, stop using their product and paying them to ignore you. It's action that will get their attention, not forum posts.

I love that this was moved from the PTS forum. What a spit in the face. Talk about treating your customers poorly...

 

I've already unsubscribed because of the issue the OP describes here. There's just no respect from this company for paying customers. My advice: if you want BioWare to start listening, stop using their product and paying them to ignore you. It's action that will get their attention, not forum posts.

It was moved because it violated the PTR forum policies. You should go back and read them. they are VERY detailed about adhering to those policies on the PTR forum.

specifically, the policy that this thread violated was that posts in the forum need to SPECIFICALLY discuss features on the PTR. the OP even stated themselves that it WASN'T ABOUT THE PTR.

Which is why it was moved. and be thankfull...they usually just close threads like this outright. they did it to me once, and I was frustrated...until i read the forum policies.

I love that this was moved from the PTS forum. What a spit in the face. Talk about treating your customers poorly...

 

I've already unsubscribed because of the issue the OP describes here. There's just no respect from this company for paying customers. My advice: if you want BioWare to start listening, stop using their product and paying them to ignore you. It's action that will get their attention, not forum posts.

It's intelligence that will get their attention not stupid wisecrack comments.

SERIOUSLY!!!

You people complain without giving actual feedback. You "quit" because your self-entitlement doesn't become reality, you compare games to get your points across but you NEVER use your heads when doing so.

Just ONCE I'd want to see a "quitter" give actual concise smart and well thought reasons for quitting.

BW will not reply to complaints about the Nerfs because they have already stated on the official podcast that if you cant provide constructive feedback in the form of hard figures from the PTS (yes only a select few have access with lvl 50's) to support your claims that the changes will not work then they will not respond as basically most people are stating my class is buggered fix it, the majority of which are reading patch notes and not actually experienced the changes end game on PTS in the eyes of the devs so our arguments don't hold weight to them.

What we really need is to be interrogating and getting the assistance of those select few testing with level 50's and not so much BW ( that is if the selected guilds haven't got their heads so far up BW's butt), these are the guys that can gather the facts and numbers required to back our corner if need be, their feedback is the only one that holds weight and tbh iv seen very little threads created by these guys regarding the results of raiding/pvp etc so im guessing my heads up butt statement holds true. Either that or BW have forbidden them from disclosing information during testing to prevent any more unrest.

I come to these conclusions because is it just me that thinks the selected guilds supposedly testing 1.2 endgame are awfully silent during all this outcry?

BW will not reply to complaints about the Nerfs because they have already stated on the official podcast that if you cant provide constructive feedback in the form of hard figures from the PTS (yes only a select few have access with lvl 50's) to support your claims that the changes will not work then they will not respond as basically most people are stating my class is buggered fix it, the majority of which are reading patch notes and not actually experienced the changes end game on PTS in the eyes of the devs so our arguments don't hold weight to them.

 

What we really need is to be interrogating and getting the assistance of those select few testing with level 50's and not so much BW ( that is if the selected guilds haven't got their heads so far up BW's butt), these are the guys that can gather the facts and numbers required to back our corner if need be, their feedback is the only one that holds weight and tbh iv seen very little threads created by these guys regarding the results of raiding/pvp etc so im guessing my heads up butt statement holds true. Either that or BW have forbidden them from disclosing information during testing to prevent any more unrest.

 

I come to these conclusions because is it just me that thinks the selected guilds supposedly testing 1.2 endgame are awfully silent during all this outcry?

My 50 Sorc is on the PTS (twice, actually, due to a mistake in the manual transferring they did). I've tested it. I've run the numbers, I've analyzed logs, and I've posted a great deal of my findings here. They still aren't listen, they are just using that as an excuse to ignore the concerns of 95% of their customer base.

My 50 Sorc is on the PTS (twice, actually, due to a mistake in the manual transferring they did). I've tested it. I've run the numbers, I've analyzed logs, and I've posted a great deal of my findings here. They still aren't listen, they are just using that as an excuse to ignore the concerns of 95% of their customer base.

^This. In the end no company really cares about the QQ. Seen all the major developers of MMOs do the same song and dance we have seen here. It is almost uncanny how much their deleting of posts and very vague responses remind me of Blizz and SOA responses when people react the same way. It is like the same PR. firm handles all these companies.

In the end it is their game and if you like it, great. If you don't just stop playing. Cause your opinion means nothing, and if they say it does, they are lying. Proof is in the pudding.

It's intelligence that will get their attention not stupid wisecrack comments.

SERIOUSLY!!!

You people complain without giving actual feedback. You "quit" because your self-entitlement doesn't become reality, you compare games to get your points across but you NEVER use your heads when doing so.

 

Just ONCE I'd want to see a "quitter" give actual concise smart and well thought reasons for quitting.

Why? It is not the consumer's job to accurately, legibly, concisely, or even coherently communicate his or her desires. It is the producer's job to fulfill them.

Why? It is not the consumer's job to accurately, legibly, concisely, or even coherently communicate his or her desires. It is the producer's job to fulfill them.

I would tend to disagree with this. The producer has no requirement, or even commitment to fulling those desires. The producer has a goal of producing a marketable product. Often that includes customer desires, but not untempered. Practicality and cost versus benefit need to be taken into account as well, and thus the customers don't always (in fact, rarely ever) get precisely what they want.

Beyond that, the more time you force the producer to take to decode illegible, disorganized, inaccurate, or even completely unreadable requests, the higher the "cost" side of the cost/benefit analysis, and therefore the less likely your request will be entered into production. If you provide the producer with a coherent, legible, accurate, well-written, well-organized, justified and data-backed outline of your concern and your proposed solution, where the only action that remains for said producer is to evaluate the argument itself and the proposed solution (and any tweaks that might be necessary), you have a much higher chance of your request being fulfilled.

This sense of entitlement is ridiculous. You aren't due anything. The producers have no debt they owe you. A smart business will listen to their customers, true, but they won't be blindly lead along like a packmule. Contrary to the popular axiom, the customer is not always right.

They've stated their reasoning for PVE purposes, didn't they? Claiming Sorcs were too powerful and the reason for making nightmare modes simplistic. All because of a bug.

 

One bug that made PvP healing = God Mode* for sorc healers (*Usually, unless there were a competent melee on the opposing team) and made healing Nightmare modes extremely simplistic. (coupled with the somewhat infinite Force supply)

 

The thing Bioware needs to respond to is this (and only this):

 

PVP: How do you think removing a Sorc/sage's only burst heal (1.4 dark infusion from resurgence) makes them Balanced with other healers who have shorter cast times on their "big heal" and higher output on their 1.5 second cast heals in a rated Warzone . (Which is clearly Biowares PVP focus)

 

That change/question alone is the reason you won't see Sorcs/sages in Rated WZ's.

From what I have read in previous threads, people are claiming the reason the 1.5 second Di is gone from resurgence is because the devs can't figure out how to leave that on the resurgence AND get rid of the double cast glitch. So if past posters are correct, they put this nerf in not because of class balance but because of that issue and I hope its true and they find a fix for it and put the reduced cast time for DI back on resurgence, but that is just what I have read in other posts/threads and it could be either true or false.

I would tend to disagree with this. The producer has no requirement, or even commitment to fulling those desires. The producer has a goal of producing a marketable product. Often that includes customer desires, but not untempered. Practicality and cost versus benefit need to be taken into account as well, and thus the customers don't always (in fact, rarely ever) get precisely what they want.

 

Beyond that, the more time you force the producer to take to decode illegible, disorganized, inaccurate, or even completely unreadable requests, the higher the "cost" side of the cost/benefit analysis, and therefore the less likely your request will be entered into production. If you provide the producer with a coherent, legible, accurate, well-written, well-organized, justified and data-backed outline of your concern and your proposed solution, where the only action that remains for said producer is to evaluate the argument itself and the proposed solution (and any tweaks that might be necessary), you have a much higher chance of your request being fulfilled.

 

This sense of entitlement is ridiculous. You aren't due anything. The producers have no debt they owe you. A smart business will listen to their customers, true, but they won't be blindly lead along like a packmule. Contrary to the popular axiom, the customer is not always right.

Quoting for truth.

From what I have read in previous threads, people are claiming the reason the 1.5 second Di is gone from resurgence is because the devs can't figure out how to leave that on the resurgence AND get rid of the double cast glitch. So if past posters are correct, they put this nerf in not because of class balance but because of that issue and I hope its true and they find a fix for it and put the reduced cast time for DI back on resurgence, but that is just what I have read in other posts/threads and it could be either true or false.

Actually, I wouldn't really be surprised at this, considering they've also blatantly left in the Lightning Barrage double-dip (which is mechanically identical).

I would tend to disagree with this. The producer has no requirement, or even commitment to fulling those desires. The producer has a goal of producing a marketable product. Often that includes customer desires, but not untempered. Practicality and cost versus benefit need to be taken into account as well, and thus the customers don't always (in fact, rarely ever) get precisely what they want.

 

Beyond that, the more time you force the producer to take to decode illegible, disorganized, inaccurate, or even completely unreadable requests, the higher the "cost" side of the cost/benefit analysis, and therefore the less likely your request will be entered into production. If you provide the producer with a coherent, legible, accurate, well-written, well-organized, justified and data-backed outline of your concern and your proposed solution, where the only action that remains for said producer is to evaluate the argument itself and the proposed solution (and any tweaks that might be necessary), you have a much higher chance of your request being fulfilled.

 

This sense of entitlement is ridiculous. You aren't due anything. The producers have no debt they owe you. A smart business will listen to their customers, true, but they won't be blindly lead along like a packmule. Contrary to the popular axiom, the customer is not always right.

Gasp!.. Someone who get's it....

I... I... I think I'm going to cry now.

I love that this was moved from the PTS forum. What a spit in the face. Talk about treating your customers poorly...

 

I've already unsubscribed because of the issue the OP describes here. There's just no respect from this company for paying customers. My advice: if you want BioWare to start listening, stop using their product and paying them to ignore you. It's action that will get their attention, not forum posts.

Now this QQ i had to laugh at. The entire population of TOR was mostly Sage/Sorc class....did you ever think why?

Now this QQ i had to laugh at. The entire population of TOR was mostly Sage/Sorc class....did you ever think why?

Because Sage/Sorc is the only class in game that resembles the typical mage/warlock/priest classes from other games in both looks and mechanics, not to mention the fact it comes with a glowy stat stick and the ability to shoot lightening (sorc side).

Because Sage/Sorc is the only class in game that resembles the typical mage/warlock/priest classes from other games in both looks and mechanics, not to mention the fact it comes with a glowy stat stick and the ability to shoot lightening (sorc side).

This is the exact reason I made my sage/sorc. I have both.

I made one because I have always enjoyed the typical "caster" character and I really love healing. Not because they are overpowered, not because every other bugger who plays has rolled one, but because I enjoy playing it.

I'm waiting until 1.2 hits, I would like to see how many people will stick with their sages/sorc's even when they are not the "FotM".

I will be.

Síth.

 

If you provide the producer with a coherent, legible, accurate, well-written, well-organized, justified and data-backed outline of your concern and your proposed solution, where the only action that remains for said producer is to evaluate the argument itself and the proposed solution (and any tweaks that might be necessary), you have a much higher chance of your request being fulfilled.

 

Or, instead, I could take my money to a producer who gives me what I want without having to do all of that.

What you describe is a seriously suboptimal use of my time and money.

 

This sense of entitlement is ridiculous. You aren't due anything. The producers have no debt they owe you. A smart business will listen to their customers, true, but they won't be blindly lead along like a packmule. Contrary to the popular axiom, the customer is not always right.

The sense of entitlement is not in any way ridiculous. I pay and in return am entitled to certain utility (in this case, fun.) If I dont receive said utility, I stop paying. I do not owe Bioware an explanation of why I stopped paying, or a coherent suggestion as to how they might be able to retain me as a customer, or... anything really.

I dont owe them anything.

They owe me utility for my $15.

It is them who must entice me to continue to pay, not I who must entice them to entice me to pay. THAT idea is ridiculous.

Gasp!.. Someone who get's it....

 

I... I... I think I'm going to cry now.

So you advocate to continue to pay for a product that you do not enjoy in the hopes that this time your pleas to make the product enjoyable will be well-worded enough to not fall on deaf ears?

A mind-boggling stance.

lot of talk, but BW knows well that heated threads are a long way from quitting the game. Canceling your reoccurring payment method is a long way; heck even canceling all together is a long way from being out for good.

IF I do decide not to play 1.2 as a result of class imbalance OR class mechanics not being to my taste, I will check back when cross server PVP is introduced. Of course if my class is still not to my liking I won't reinstate my account, but I will check back.

I have a sense of entitlement, I'm entitled to good value for my $$. If I don't get it, I will seek that value elsewhere. If this is the best gig in town regardless of its short comings, I'll be back, if not, I won't.

This has been a great game, leveling was actualy fun, not a chore (ok, the last part was a bit of a grind, but the class story help make it worth it). I just wish cross server PVP would have been a priority over some of the stuff being implimented... I get tired of being killed and killing the same guys over and over.