Well, obviously if I was to chose between light and dark id chose the light, obviously the Jedi are the lesser of two evils.

 

However, Jedi have controlled the Republic for millennia, they held power in the senate until Ruusan, and even then had one of the highest ranking advisor positions in the entire republic. They all held the rank of general, and all because they could use the force. Exactly like the Sith. They say the dark side enslaves you, yet the light side strips away your humanity and forces you to live without true passion and emotion. The Jedi also take a role as peacekeepers, and take roles in wars siding with the Republic that gives them power. Sure, they say that it's to protect the innocent, but going back to Traya's ideals, it's not always true. Revans Empire for example. Had he succeeded, the Empire in exile would have been far easier bested in combat when the time came for them to invade, and the republic would have been in a stronger position.

 

Yet the Jedi stopped him, because he followed a certain ideal that threatened to strip them of their power and half their ability to shape the galaxy as their code saw fit.

 

Again I'm not saying the Sith are better or even equal, I just don't think id ever wish to belong to either side.

There is a BIG difference between controlling your emotions, of not being afraid to lose what people care about in order to remain at peace, to maintain your center, and having to live without true passion and emotion as you misinterpret.

One needs to stop looking at the Jedi through a western eye. The Jedi Order's philosophy is very much in the vein of Bushido and other eastern codes where emotions and actions are to be very firmly controlled. The only difference is that in the Star Wars universe failing to do so has real negative consequences for a Jedi (go to the dark side) where in RL it can result in losing a fight maybe because of losing control, a loss of face in society, being looked down upon by you contemporaries etc. This is BTW implicit and explicit. It is implicit in terms of just listening to how say Yoda talks (I mentioned that earlier.). It is explicit in statements made by GL. So you are wrong.

So once you do away with the myopia a western mindset creates in looking at the Jedi Order, we then look at your example of why they fought against Revan. That was som SERIOUS revisionist history. (If referring to Revan's SITH empire. First HE invaded the Republic. He started his invasions by having Sith Assassins infiltrate the republic and begin assassinations and kidnappings of Jedi. Those that were abducted were broken by interrogators and turned to the dark side. They fought against Revan's empire because he was a SITH he just was a Sith strong enough to betray the Emperor who turned him.

If you refer to what just happened in SWTOR again, omg even worse revisionism.

I am NO far of Star Wars in terms of its firm delineations between Light and Dark but in that world, on the Galactic scale it breaks down to who wears the white hats and who wears the black hats in the final equation.

I am all for people having opinions, but opinions need to be based in facts. If the opinion contradicts facts...well I will call people out on it.

*Sigh* Edited to stop this discussion blowing up.

The /sigh implies it was a big post. Sorry, Sel.

The /sigh implies it was a big post. Sorry, Sel.

It was huge

But it's fine, was kinda ranty and a bit condescending anyway, probably best I didn't post it Besides, we've had this debate numerous times before, not like I feel a great desire to start it again

It was huge

 

But it's fine, was kinda ranty and a bit condescending anyway, probably best I didn't post it Besides, we've had this debate numerous times before, not like I feel a great desire to start it again

Maybe that's for the best. This is one of those scenarios where no one's right and arguing about it is just going to end with everybody having hurt feelings.

Good thing I said something. It ended the war five years early and saved millions of lives.

OK, let's not get into a philosophy argument here. I used to get into those arguments, but I don't care for them anymore. So let's not get into this right now.

Simply because something involves a philosophy, does not make it a philosophical argument. As an example Nazi ideology/philosophy is abhorrent imo. Europe went to war though NOT because GB and France did not like Hitler's Philosophy but because he invaded Poland, then France. The US did not join the war because of Axis aggression against those whose governments shared democracy but because the Japanese attacked the US.

Same goes with looking at the Philiosphy of the Jedi. George Lucas...not me...based the Jedi on Samurai and the Bushido code. The Bushido code does NOT call for a purging of all emotion. It calls for being able to master your emotions and when necessary to be willing to not feel them, to be at peace so that when involved in a critical incident you act (yes sometimes attack) as if nothing critical is occurring. So again not a philosophical argument. I am simply pointing out that people will sometimes use a western mindset when viewing something prototypically eastern. The two mindsets are very different. Someone from the east with no conception of the Western mindset would be very surprised and would likely see as distasteful public displays of affection we don't even think twice about. So in looking at the Jedi, per Lucas's own words, one has to adopt an eastern mindset if you want to see the truth as Lucas intends and I thought these discussions were about getting to the truth of the lore. You can't get more true than the words of the author who created the stuff.

If you note the things that are a matter of philosophy (whether the Jedi are too involved in politics, should they be generals in the armed forces etc) I avoided. The two points I raised were based on facts, not philosophy.

Simply because something involves a philosophy, does not make it a philosophical argument. As an example Nazi ideology/philosophy is abhorrent imo. Europe went to war though NOT because GB and France did not like Hitler's Philosophy but because he invaded Poland, then France. The US did not join the war because of Axis aggression against those whose governments shared democracy but because the Japanese attacked the US.

 

Same goes with looking at the Philiosphy of the Jedi. George Lucas...not me...based the Jedi on Samurai and the Bushido code. The Bushido code does NOT call for a purging of all emotion. It calls for being able to master your emotions and when necessary to be willing to not feel them, to be at peace so that when involved in a critical incident you act (yes sometimes attack) as if nothing critical is occurring. So again not a philosophical argument. I am simply pointing out that people will sometimes use a western mindset when viewing something prototypically eastern. The two mindsets are very different.

 

If you note the things that are a matter of philosophy (whether the Jedi are too involved in politics, should they be generals in the armed forces etc) I avoided. The two points I raised were based on facts, not philosophy.

Except the Bushido code is a philosophical ideology, and to not understand that is to not understand the basis behind what we're arguing. Not to mention you entirely misunderstood the point of my post, literally every one.

But I don't feel the need to go into it, we're merely derailing this thread.

Except the Bushido code is a philosophical ideology, and to not understand that is to not understand the basis behind what we're arguing. Not to mention you entirely misunderstood the point of my post, literally every one.

 

But I don't feel the need to go into it, we're merely derailing this thread.

I understand Bushido VERY well. For almost a decade I studied it as I learned Aikido from a Japanese born Sensei. That is why your comments regarding passion and emotion raised my hackles...that is NOT Bushido and thus is not Jedi.

Also well...maybe you didn't word things right but when you say...

yet the light side strips away your humanity and forces you to live without true passion and emotion

When you say

Revans Empire for example. Had he succeeded, the Empire in exile would have been far easier bested in combat when the time came for them to invade, and the republic would have been in a stronger position.

 

Yet the Jedi stopped him, because he followed a certain ideal that threatened to strip them of their power and half their ability to shape the galaxy as their code saw fit.

It is akin to the Nazi analogy I made...the Jedi and Republic went to war with him because he attacked them first. Revan is sent by the Emperor to be his general in attacking the Republic. Revan is still Sith but decides to take the Republic as HIS Empire, betraying the Emperor. Does other stuff happen later? Yes but the war starts with Revan attacking the Jedi, abducting those he can and torturing them until the go to the dark side and killing those he can't capture. He attacks the Republic as well. The Jedi and Republic fighting back is pure self defense.

To turn around and say the Jedi were simply trying to defend their power rather than their LIVES is the definition of Revisionist history. He would be like saying that the US only declared war on Japan so as to be the preeminent power in the Pacific, not because Japan attacked and/or conquered US Territories in surprise attacks.

So please what did I misunderstand?

I am not being sarcastic btw... If I misunderstood something I want to know. Have been wrong before...will be wrong again and I have no problem admitting when I am.

As for derail...the Revan stuff maybe. BUT when looking at any great Jedi individually the philosophy of the Jedi is integral to the task. Someone earlier already said "Yoda was a crap teacher because he pushed Anakin to the dark side by saying 'get over it'." That isn't what Yoda said though, if you look at his statements with an understanding of Bushido.

It is akin to the Nazi analogy I made...the Jedi and Republic went to war with him because he attacked them first. Revan is sent by the Emperor to be his general in attacking the Republic. Revan is still Sith but decides to take the Republic as HIS Empire, betraying the Emperor. Does other stuff happen later? Yes but the war starts with Revan attacking the Jedi, abducting those he can and torturing them until the go to the dark side and killing those he can't capture. He attacks the Republic as well. The Jedi and Republic fighting back is pure self defense.

It is really fascinating how many jedi apparently react to torture by not only turning into puppy kicking psychopaths but also swearing loyalty to the one torturing them. I mean, they are puppy kicking psychopaths now so they will probably betray them at some point. But they still took that offer instead of either telling them to **** off or only agreeing so they could run the first chance they got and join up with their rival or something.

The prequel trilogy would have been a lot different if Dooku had just zapped Obi-Wan with some force lightning instead of trying to lure him to the dark side with five minutes of reasoned debate before saying **** it and trying to feed him to an animal.

It is really fascinating how many jedi apparently react to torture by not only turning into puppy kicking psychopaths but also swearing loyalty to the one torturing them. I mean, they are puppy kicking psychopaths now so they will probably betray them at some point. But they still took that offer instead of either telling them to **** off or only agreeing so they could run the first chance they got and join up with their rival or something.

 

The prequel trilogy would have been a lot different if Dooku had just zapped Obi-Wan with some force lightning instead of trying to lure him to the dark side with five minutes of reasoned debate before saying **** it and trying to feed him to an animal.

Well there are, from what I can tell, two schools on that. (Not saying which I believe/agree with)

1. The Force is sentient. The Light side lows for you to make your own decisions. The dark side, even if subconsciously, controls you. So if you give in to hate/fear/anger and go dark, you are never quite entirely your own person.

2. A form of forced Stockholm syndrome. A Sith would not only be torturing you with lightning. That would just be to soften you up. Once you are weak enough it is time to mess with you mind in a psychic manner.

In the end you see the torture as having been a necessary evil to let you see "the truth". The torturer stops being your captor and becomes your liberator where the Jedi Order was the real captor.

We actually see that transition, albeit poorly written, in the prequel movies in Anakin.

If you're trying to tell me love isn't a base passion, I don't know what to tell you other than you're wrong. The Jedi code is not Bushido, it is loosely based on it, and that's why you're confused.

And your Revan argument, again, missed the point. They did not join the fight because he invaded, they joined because he was a Dark Jedi. That's obvious by the fact they wouldn't join the Mandalorian wars, and made even more obvious when they say they wouldn't join the Mandalorian wars for fear of the Dark Side, even though fighting Revan corrupted far more. Not to mention that they strongly suggest in Kotor 2 that they would have executed a Dark Side Revan, when they say they were taking their frustration out on Surik. Many masters wanted her dead, because she went to war, but she was not Revan and had not fallen.

So... That.

If you're trying to tell me love isn't a base passion, I don't know what to tell you other than you're wrong. The Jedi code is not Bushido, it is loosely based on it, and that's why you're confused.

 

And your Revan argument, again, missed the point. They did not join the fight because he invaded, they joined because he was a Dark Jedi. That's obvious by the fact they wouldn't join the Mandalorian wars, and made even more obvious when they say they wouldn't join the Mandalorian wars for fear of the Dark Side, even though fighting Revan corrupted far more. Not to mention that they strongly suggest in Kotor 2 that they would have executed a Dark Side Revan, when they say they were taking their frustration out on Surik. Many masters wanted her dead, because she went to war, but she was not Revan and had not fallen.

 

So... That.

Boy moving the goal postsposts. There is a difference between arguing what makes and feeds emotions and the statement you made which I quoted. At no time do they say "do not feel"....your original contention... Rather they say "these emotions can be paths to the dark side, so you must control them and not let them control you.". Then when asked how do you do this and they go right into answers that would fit perfectly with any answer from an Aikido or Kendo instructor who instructs using Bushido.

It is also an interesting goal post move when you first basically challenge whether I know anything about Bushido, right down to whether or not I even understand if it is a philosophy to try and dismiss my statement as wrong. Now suddenly it is not my knowledge of Bushido that is in question, now you swap it around to a question of to what degree did Bushido inform GL's conceptualization of the Jedi.

Next you contradict the hell out of yourself now. In the OP I responded to, you spoke about how the Jedi Order was closely aligned to the politics of the Republic and how they were Generals, conducting wars and battles. This was to your mind, and to an extent I might even agree, is a mark against the Jedi, not in favor of it.

Now that part of your argument is conveniently ignored and you use the fact that the Jedi Order was originally against Revan wanting to join the Mandalorian war, because they did NOT be involved in the politics and conflicts of the Republic for fear of the Dark Side to support your argument that Revan was right and the Jedi wrong to later fight hin? You can't have it both ways. If the Jedi are wrong in being Generals and in being involved in Politics then being against involvement in the Mandalorian war is right.

To make your arguments even more lacking in internal logical consistency you take this contradiction and use it to anchor the next argument; namely that even if Revan had not preemptively attacked the Jedi directly, they would have attacked anyway. So, you perform multiple contradictions...

1.

Jedi have controlled the Republic for millennia, they held power in the senate until Ruusan, and even then had one of the highest ranking advisor positions in the entire republic. They all held the rank of general, and all because they could use the force. Exactly like the Sith.... The Jedi also take a role as peacekeepers, and take roles in wars siding with the Republic that gives them power. Sure, they say that it's to protect the innocent...

Then...

2.

the fact they wouldn't join the Mandalorian wars, and made even more obvious when they say they wouldn't join the Mandalorian wars...

Well which is it? Are they wrong because they are generals using their force abilities fighting to protect the Republic because they from behind the scenes pull the strings and control the republic or are they wrong because they won't fight to defend the same Republic they allegedly control? Its getting a bit confusing... It gets more confusing though because...

3.

They did not join the fight because he invaded, they joined because he was a Dark Jedi. That's obvious by the fact they wouldn't join the Mandalorian wars, and made even more obvious when they say they wouldn't join the Mandalorian wars

More simple phrasing is "proof they would have gone to war without being attacked first is that they once chose not to support war." unique perspective...

If as you say the Jedi did not want to go to War against the Mandalorians due to a fear of sliding to the Dark Side, then it makes going to war against Revan without provocation even LESS logical. Going to war against the Revanite Sith would hold even more danger of going to the Dark Side because that war would be even more brutal.

I get it, your issue when it comes to the conflicts the Jedi become involved in is NOT that they are involved in conflicts in general (as you comments about being self proclaimed peacekeepers and Generals would imply) it is that the Jedi Order has not always wanted to get involved in the Conflicts or on the side YOU want them to be on. You felt that they should have jumped feet first into the Mandalorian war...that they should have just stood by while Revan decimated them. The Mandalorian war involvement (that Revan was in favor of) was good in your mind, and Revan wanting to make his own Sith Empire in opposition to the Emperor's, and the rest of the Galaxy, was also a good thing even though it too would have been a Sith Empire. Wait a minute I think I see a trend here.

Edit: **** it in replying to this post in a TL;DR format then never posting about it again >.>

Sorry if I'm being a horrible buzzkill. You can understand my reasons, though, right?

I'm not sure I agree with Selenial's point of view, but I do believe the Jedi flawed in the way they other that which the Jedi Code warns against such as passion. I don't believe this makes the Jedi passionless, but when they are confronted with passions in the extreme i.e. the dark side, they react to violently, and take refuge in ignorance.

They are not prepared to recognize it as natural but as an unnatural other and as a result are all to often unable to embrace ideas of redemption and reconciliation and instead resort to ignorance, fear and harsh justice. I don't believe this is an inherent problem with the Jedi though, just a misunderstanding of a very absolute code.

How this applies to Bushido I don't know, but I do believe the Jedi approach to the other side of the coin if you will is flawed and that the Jedi could benefit from overcoming what I ultimately believe to be prejudices.

Boy moving the goal postsposts.

How? Love is a base passion, one that almost everyone looks for throughout their life. It's a fundamental aspect of humanity, and strictly forbidden by the majority of Jedi Orders, Yoda's included. I'm not sure how this is moving the goal posts at all. It fits perfectly fine with what I had said previously. Thought I'd quote you here however:

The Bushido code does NOT call for a purging of all emotion. It calls for being able to master your emotions and when necessary to be willing to not feel them, to be at peace so that when involved in a critical incident you act (yes sometimes attack) as if nothing critical is occurring.

You yourself just showed exactly why the Jedi order is not a denomination of Bushido, as the Jedi have to constantly purge their emotions. Yoda taught pupils not to feel anger, never to fall in love, that envy and lust were forbidden and led to the Dark Side. And as you said right above, that's not how the Bushido samurai acted.

Well which is it?

Neither, or both. Depending on which Jedi order we are talking about, one there speaks of Yoda's order, and the other speaks of the Old Republic order, two fundamentally different factions of the Jedi.

However I'd be happy that the Jedi had gone into the Mandalorian wars had they not stayed in power afterwards, If that had happened I would not compare them ot the Sith. Same for the clone wars. Protecting the innocent is important. My original post however was to say that the Sith are always perceived as power hungry because they hold high ranks and basically dictate their state, yet we know Jedi have held the position of Chancellor, Supreme Commander and often General. I'm not even saying I disagree with them having power, it's just there to show that they were not different from the Sith.

3.

 

More simple phrasing is "proof they would have gone to war without being attacked first is that they once chose not to support war." unique perspective...

You seem to have a child's grasp of my point. You see the feet but not the head.

Yes, I would have been happy if the Jedi had stood aside for Revan. I would also have been happy if the Revanchist Jedi had not gotten involved in the Mandalorian wars and simply let the Mandalorians destroy the Republic. The point is that the order were happy to stand aside for the Mandalorians, as the Council in Kotor 2 states, due to fear of the Dark Side. However when the Dark Side came knocking on their door they were happy to take up arms and go on the wanton slaughter.

You keep making tiny nit-picks in my arguments instead of actually looking at it as the whole point. The original post was posted to highlight the similarities between the Jedi and the Sith, and why I could not adhere to a single code. The Jedi's involvement in their civil war is no different than the Sith starting a war to destroy the Jedi, people merely look on with rose tinted glasses because we like the Jedi.

And for the love of god stop referring to the faith of the Jedi as Bushido, it is not. George Lucas has never said he based it on Bushido, only that he took concepts from many historical and modern day philosophies and religions.

If anything it's Taoism in a nutshell.

Oh and I'm done with this argument, stop derailing Aurbere's thread.

To bring us back to Yoda, what do we think about Dark Yoda? I'm not referring to the Gollum-esque creature in TCW, but what would happen to Yoda if he turned to the Dark Side. In Dark Rendezvous Dooku speculates that Yoda would have the power to annihilate Darth Sidious if he turned to the Dark Side. Could that be possible? Or is Dooku mistaken?

Discuss!

To bring us back to Yoda, what do we think about Dark Yoda? I'm not referring to the Gollum-esque creature in TCW, but what would happen to Yoda if he turned to the Dark Side. In Dark Rendezvous Dooku speculates that Yoda would have the power to annihilate Darth Sidious if he turned to the Dark Side. Could that be possible? Or is Dooku mistaken?

 

Discuss!

I always thought Yoda would have been the most powerful Sith, had he been Dark. However, only if he turned Dark earlier. The Dark Side rapidly degenerates One's body, and the reason Yoda was still breathing and walking was his devotion to the Light. I have no doubts that He'd achieve the secret to immortality, but only after a long time, time that he would not have.

Also I doubt he'd be the Saber Master we see in canon, and more a Vitiate-esque sorcerer.

I always thought Yoda would have been the most powerful Sith, had he been Dark. However, only if he turned Dark earlier. The Dark Side rapidly degenerates One's body, and the reason Yoda was still breathing and walking was his devotion to the Light. I have no doubts that He'd achieve the secret to immortality, but only after a long time, time that he would not have.

 

Also I doubt he'd be the Saber Master we see in canon, and more a Vitiate-esque sorcerer.

Interesting. You're right that Yoda would have needed to go Dark early so that his body wouldn't just immediately fall apart. I had not considered that until I started research for this thread.

But do you really think he'd go Sorcerer? I expect that he would still be a master swordsman. I don't think he would go full Sorcerer like Vitiate.

Interesting. You're right that Yoda would have needed to go Dark early so that his body wouldn't just immediately fall apart. I had not considered that until I started research for this thread.

 

But do you really think he'd go Sorcerer? I expect that he would still be a master swordsman. I don't think he would go full Sorcerer like Vitiate.

He used a blade against Dooku because he didn't want to kill him with the force, and he didn't have the power to do it to Sidious.

I think he'd be a master swordsman for sure, he'd just swat people like flies because he didn't have to engage them

He used a blade against Dooku because he didn't want to kill him with the force, and he didn't have the power to do it to Sidious.

 

I think he'd be a master swordsman for sure, he'd just swat people like flies because he didn't have to engage them

Oh, you mean like that. Yeah, then I agree. I thought you meant that he'd abandon swordplay completely and just be like Vitiate.

Which is kinda lame, because Vitiate's kinda lame.

Oh, you mean like that. Yeah, then I agree. I thought you meant that he'd abandon swordplay completely and just be like Vitiate.

 

Which is kinda lame, because Vitiate's kinda lame.

Apparently frying people with lightning storms is lame, you have impugned the honor of force lightning users everywhere!

 

Apparently frying people with lightning storms is lame, you have impugned the honor of force lightning users everywhere!