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New Species? Why not classes?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
New Species? Why not classes?

Monumenta's Avatar


Monumenta
09.20.2019 , 11:26 AM | #21
I think it sadly says a lot about the imaginations of our games population and its forum posters in general that more spend their time here telling other posters what can not be developed. Do you think our developers are total rubes or something? I think they are doing excellent things lately.

Of course a new class could be developed, and all the above 'concerns' can be easily addressed and overcome.

Obviously some sort of level 50+ (or 60,65,70,75,whatever) type of advanced/advanced class thing would be easy enough but a more imaginative solution would be maybe it could start at level 1 and with a few tricky cutscenes on each planet lead them to planetary and heroic type side missions and their already there cutscenes providing them with an entire cutscened leveling experience up.

or shoehorning them into as many other classes missions as possible,

or even give them missions on every planet to accompany the other classes on their class missions

Im sure our good Devs could come up with something and the whole game could be enriched and new and returning players could come flooding in, it could be good.

edited because I wanted to add-
Quote: Originally Posted by Einobi View Post
They did it for mount speed
!!!!!

The-Kaitou-Kid's Avatar


The-Kaitou-Kid
09.20.2019 , 11:38 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Blacklynx View Post
Bioware could have created two new classes, force user and non-force user, with kotet+kotfe, and spare some time making them as WoW hero classes. They would start at 50 with a personal story that would take them to 55-60, maybe 1-2 hours story, and instead of outlander, something else till comander.

It's a pity, i would really like new classes to play with, plus new individual stories, obviously, but i don't think BW has the manpower/budget/time/writters to pull it off.
Unfortunately, it's not really that simple. Even starting the story at level 60 and only doing the Outlander/Commander story would cause trouble. Think about it. You're gonna want to do FPs and Ops with this character, so that's new lines and voice acting for all of the existing FPs and Ops, plus their related stories. You'll want the option to do heroics and dailies too, so that's more lines and voice acting to get those in. But then if you do the heroics, it'll be weird to not have the corresponding planetary missions, so that's even more lines and voice acting. Then you have the events that you'll want to participate in, so a bit more lines and voice acting.

There's a lot of legacy content that would need updates for a new class, even if they don't go through the effort of making them a 1-50 class story. I just don't think that's feasible at this point. I'd love to see it, don't get me wrong, but I'd be very surprised if it ever happens.
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

DarthCasus's Avatar


DarthCasus
09.20.2019 , 11:51 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by MorseGod View Post
You are still insisting that NEW CLASS = MORE PROFIT because YOU claim you would pay more for it. I'm saying that if that were true, the people who actually analyze data at EA would already be demanding that BW do the work to get the money. EA loves nothing more than money.

EA has most assuredly crunched the numbers over and over again and determined that the POSSIBLE gain does not warrant the GUARANTEED expenditure. It's that simple. Big companies have amazing profit projection models that they use to make business decisions like this, and they aren't going to ignore those models because a tiny handful of extremely vocal players make the empty promise that they'd pay more for a new class.
So were just forgetting about the lack of profitability on Galactic Starfighter, the monthly sub model, Galactic Command and a slew of other ideas that have come from this mastermind studio? Because you seem to have a lot of faith in the idea that the bean counters have all the say so here. The longevity of a lot of their implemented content remains unknown by empirical sense (none of us have any idea how often any content is actually run numberswise) but we absolutely know what's basically dead, rarely touched, still has a pulse and is somewhat popular today going by anecdotal evidence.

I believe a new class would bring some life into the game but as the years go on, the game loses relevance, the mmo consumer base are already aware or have tried the game, there's no guarantee that it would be done well or that it would help retain more than the active playerbase. No one should expect a miracle but its definitely doable.
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Monumenta's Avatar


Monumenta
09.20.2019 , 11:56 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by The-Kaitou-Kid View Post
Unfortunately, it's not really that simple. Even starting the story at level 60 and only doing the Outlander/Commander story would cause trouble. Think about it. You're gonna want to do FPs and Ops with this character, so that's new lines and voice acting for all of the existing FPs and Ops, plus their related stories. You'll want the option to do heroics and dailies too, so that's more lines and voice acting to get those in. But then if you do the heroics, it'll be weird to not have the corresponding planetary missions, so that's even more lines and voice acting. Then you have the events that you'll want to participate in, so a bit more lines and voice acting.

There's a lot of legacy content that would need updates for a new class, even if they don't go through the effort of making them a 1-50 class story. I just don't think that's feasible at this point. I'd love to see it, don't get me wrong, but I'd be very surprised if it ever happens.
I reject the notion that game developers cant figure out which of the existing classes cut scenes would work for a hypothetical new class with fps, ops, planetaries, etc.

I mean with no thought whatsoever Id say smuggler responses for a non force user and jedi knight for a force user but I bet if it was my job to figure this out I could comb through each and every sequence to pick and choose and shoehorn in a new class right in there with very little new voice acting.

I appreciate how its easier to rail on about what cant be done and why but we really all benefit and look much smarter when we try to imagine the limits of what can.

Monumenta's Avatar


Monumenta
09.20.2019 , 11:57 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthCasus View Post
So were just forgetting about the lack of profitability on Galactic Starfighter, the monthly sub model, Galactic Command and a slew of other ideas that have come from this mastermind studio? Because you seem to have a lot of faith in the idea that the bean counters have all the say so here. The longevity of a lot of their implemented content remains unknown by empirical sense (none of us have any idea how often any content is actually run numberswise) but we absolutely know what's basically dead, rarely touched, still has a pulse and is somewhat popular today going by anecdotal evidence.

I believe a new class would bring some life into the game but as the years go on, the game loses relevance, the mmo consumer base are already aware or have tried the game, there's no guarantee that it would be done well or that it would help retain more than the active playerbase. No one should expect a miracle but its definitely doable.
well said

ZeroTypeR's Avatar


ZeroTypeR
09.20.2019 , 12:05 PM | #26
Simple, it would cost too much, and EA barely supports this game.

New Class >> New story >> More Voice acting >> More coding >> Class has to have a mirror equivalent >> Mirror Class needs a story >> Classes need 2 adv classes >> Adv classes need 3 disciplines.

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
09.20.2019 , 12:37 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Monumenta View Post
I reject the notion that game developers cant figure out which of the existing classes cut scenes would work for a hypothetical new class with fps, ops, planetaries, etc.

I mean with no thought whatsoever Id say smuggler responses for a non force user and jedi knight for a force user but I bet if it was my job to figure this out I could comb through each and every sequence to pick and choose and shoehorn in a new class right in there with very little new voice acting.

I appreciate how its easier to rail on about what cant be done and why but we really all benefit and look much smarter when we try to imagine the limits of what can.
It's not just about what the *character* says (and, following your suggestion literally as written, do you really want the new class to be obliged to sound like a Jedi even if it's a Sith?), but also about what *NPCs* say. If a new Impside Force User class *isn't* a Sith, should it be greeted universally as "My Lord"? (In some places, the Sith Warrior and Sith Inquisitor greetings are *both* incorrect - a new ImpFU, Sith or not, is neither "Dark Lord" nor "Lord Wrath".)

So no, borrowing lines from another class isn't the right solution. Almost all the shortcuts would get the new class marked out immediately as "lame" to a lesser or greater extent. People will expect a new set of lines spoken in a new set of voices, with NPCs responding correctly, and a new story(1). That is *expensive*.

And regarding the last part: *I* didn't say it *can't* be done, but that if it is done, it will be hugely expensive compared to adding a class to other MMORPGs. If the projections by their business analysts say that the estimated present and future costs(2) will exceed the estimated possible financial benefits, it won't happen. While I doubt they have access to any specific figures on what other MMORPGs gained in revenue when they added new classes, you can usually infer a reasonable estimate from the published results during times when such releases have happened.

Games with class-independent stories, and especially games (er, most of them) with no references to class in their stories, are significantly cheaper to add classes.

Final point: adding a new playable species is much cheaper in SWTOR than adding a new class. New species (and above all the ones they've chosen to add) have no impact on game mechanics, armour sets, spoken dialogue (except for a sprinkling of lines that they've so far ignored) and so on. They don't change the stories to any measurable extent. So the cost is a bit of UI, some artwork, customisation options, and a few toggles in Togruta and Nautolans to force-hide helmets. That's it.

(1) It's SWTOR. Who's going to be pleased by a new class pair that doesn't have stories on the same scale as the existing four class pairs?

(2) Present costs: what it will cost to implement the new class, including story writers, game-mechanics analysis and implementation, voice actors, mechanics testing, PvP balance testing, new UI, new lore entries, a new class ship, changes to the Fleet and other spaceports and orbital stations to accommodate the new ship (where exactly *would* you put the new class's hangar?), and so on and so on.

Future costs: all future story development would have its cost increased by the need to record more player lines, more class-specific NPC greetings and suchlike, blah blah blah.
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The-Kaitou-Kid's Avatar


The-Kaitou-Kid
09.20.2019 , 04:48 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Monumenta View Post
I reject the notion that game developers cant figure out which of the existing classes cut scenes would work for a hypothetical new class with fps, ops, planetaries, etc.

I mean with no thought whatsoever Id say smuggler responses for a non force user and jedi knight for a force user but I bet if it was my job to figure this out I could comb through each and every sequence to pick and choose and shoehorn in a new class right in there with very little new voice acting.
That's not how that works, though. You can't pick and choose with the voice acting because their voice has to be consistent throughout the game. So if you pick the Jedi Knight as the "voice" for this hypothetical class, the Jedi Knight's dialogue will have to be used for the entire game for that class. If they used different voices, it'd be incredibly jarring and the class would end up having different voices from scene to scene.

Plus, if they just used the Jedi Knight's dialogue for the entire game, they're not really a new class at that point, are they? The dialogue will make clear at some point they're a Jedi, since you took the dialogue from the Jedi Knight, so why even make them a new class? Just make them a third advanced class of the Jedi Knight at that point and save yourself the headache.

That's the biggest issue with what you're suggesting, I think they'd get pretty heavily criticized for reusing the voice acting and dialogue and it wouldn't exactly look imaginative either unless the class gameplay was just really inspired. An advanced class is a fine compromise and a much smaller logistical headache, far more realistic in my eyes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Monumenta View Post
I appreciate how its easier to rail on about what cant be done and why but we really all benefit and look much smarter when we try to imagine the limits of what can.
I don't care about "looking smarter" and I don't find it "easy" to rail against this considering I would love a fully new class, but I'm being realistic here for the sake of not setting expectations too high for the future. An actual, separate, new class just doesn't seem feasible to me without heavy concessions made that would counterbalance any benefits the new class would bring.

That has nothing to do with the developers not being able to figure something out for it either, I'm sure they could come up with solutions we'd be happy with as players, but they need the resources to implement those solutions too. That's why a new class is unrealistic. Otherwise, starting them at the Outlander story would work. But the resources required to even do that much, given the things I outlined in my previous post, would be prohibitive. Again, unless they make concessions that would cause the class to be seen as lazy, which would completely defeat the purpose of doing this.

I'm sorry if you feel like this is just railing on why things can't be done, but I want the devs to focus their efforts on things that will bring the most value to the game and I don't think this would work out well given the concessions they'd have to make to get it done. I'd be thrilled if they could make it work, but I don't expect it of them because I've given it thought and realized how enormous of an effort it would be.
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
09.20.2019 , 05:56 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by The-Kaitou-Kid View Post
That's not how that works, though. You can't pick and choose with the voice acting because their voice has to be consistent throughout the game. So if you pick the Jedi Knight as the "voice" for this hypothetical class, the Jedi Knight's dialogue will have to be used for the entire game for that class. If they used different voices, it'd be incredibly jarring and the class would end up having different voices from scene to scene.

Plus, if they just used the Jedi Knight's dialogue for the entire game, they're not really a new class at that point, are they? The dialogue will make clear at some point they're a Jedi, since you took the dialogue from the Jedi Knight, so why even make them a new class? Just make them a third advanced class of the Jedi Knight at that point and save yourself the headache.

That's the biggest issue with what you're suggesting, I think they'd get pretty heavily criticized for reusing the voice acting and dialogue and it wouldn't exactly look imaginative either unless the class gameplay was just really inspired. An advanced class is a fine compromise and a much smaller logistical headache, far more realistic in my eyes.



I don't care about "looking smarter" and I don't find it "easy" to rail against this considering I would love a fully new class, but I'm being realistic here for the sake of not setting expectations too high for the future. An actual, separate, new class just doesn't seem feasible to me without heavy concessions made that would counterbalance any benefits the new class would bring.

That has nothing to do with the developers not being able to figure something out for it either, I'm sure they could come up with solutions we'd be happy with as players, but they need the resources to implement those solutions too. That's why a new class is unrealistic. Otherwise, starting them at the Outlander story would work. But the resources required to even do that much, given the things I outlined in my previous post, would be prohibitive. Again, unless they make concessions that would cause the class to be seen as lazy, which would completely defeat the purpose of doing this.

I'm sorry if you feel like this is just railing on why things can't be done, but I want the devs to focus their efforts on things that will bring the most value to the game and I don't think this would work out well given the concessions they'd have to make to get it done. I'd be thrilled if they could make it work, but I don't expect it of them because I've given it thought and realized how enormous of an effort it would be.
Thank you for this post. While it may seem to some one that we railing on that we don't want this. Most of us would love some new classes but we are also realistic that if it can't be done right like the others then what is the point of it. What sets SWTOR apart from other MMO is their fully voiced stories and using the same voice actor for another class really wouldn't work as you said it would be seem as lazy and that would not please most people.
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Nefla's Avatar


Nefla
09.20.2019 , 06:14 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by MorseGod View Post
Do you honestly beleive that the folks at EA and Bioware don't have teams of business analysts crunching the numbers on whether a new class would be profitable or not? I'd wager there are plenty of devs who would love to get the resources to add this sort of thing, and they get told by the bean-counters exactly what a money pit it would be.
Those bean counters nickel and diming people as much as possible and trying to ship out broken, unfinished games for maximum profit are cheap and greedy but don't understand gamers. Look at Mass Effect Andromeda and Anthem as recent BioWare examples. Not exactly cash cows to the surprise of those bean counters.