Penny Arcade did a really good Extra Credit video about balancing games for player skill, and why there need to be some classes/equipment/options that are powerful but easy (the infamous 'lol only takes 4 buttons' class, whichever class you happen to think that is)

 

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill

 

I'd say more, but I want people to watch the video instead of focus on my argument. But I'll say I think this clearly applies to SWTOR. Are some classes much easier to perform (high numbers, effective in battle) than others? Yes, but the classes that are harder to perform with often have higher potential (For example, the case with Shadow tanks in PvE, which are very hard to perform optimally with, but if played optimally have definite and noticably higher Survivability numbers than the other classes)

I'm sorry -- balancing for player skill? 0.o This, imo is a product of the new "thing" to give everyone trophies, tell everyone they are special.

 

Everyone isn't special. And of those who are special - some are more special than others.

 

No - no balancing for player skill is indicated imo. People need to accept it - you aren't all "great" - you aren't all "the best". Some people will suck, some people will be decent, some good - and some the best.

 

That's life.

 

I play a Shadow tank btw -- it isn't THAT difficult.. A tank is supposed to have higher survivability - that's what a tank does. And of course someone who is more skilled at playing their class will have even more survivability - 0.0

 

 

I just am floored that you'd expect that people who are LESS skilled should have the same survivability as someone more skilled. That imo - is just.... ludicrous. Sorry.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Seena

"Skill" is not quantifiable. There are too many variables to accurately balance anything with it.

"Skill" is not quantifiable. There are too many variables to accurately balance anything with it.

 

Nor should it be done even if it were possible.

I'm sorry -- balancing for player skill? 0.o This, imo is a product of the new "thing" to give everyone trophies, tell everyone they are special.

 

Everyone isn't special. And of those who are special - some are more special than others.

 

No - no balancing for player skill is indicated imo. People need to accept it - you aren't all "great" - you aren't all "the best". Some people will suck, some people will be decent, some good - and some the best.

 

That's life.

 

I play a Shadow tank btw -- it isn't THAT difficult.. A tank is supposed to have higher survivability - that's what a tank does. And of course someone who is more skilled at playing their class will have even more survivability - 0.0

 

 

I just am floored that you'd expect that people who are LESS skilled should have the same survivability as someone more skilled. That imo - is just.... ludicrous. Sorry.

Did you even watch the video?

They made some valid points, players will quit and all you are left with is a dying game, do you want a dead game just to feel special?

After watching this video I cant help but to think of "Lolsmash" .

The video also states there should be stronger tactics that require more skill. As it stands smashing is the strongest and simplest thing to do in pvp. I mean if I spec into it and just stay in my tank form while still in my tank gear I put up 250k damage on average a match. That sort of number shouldn't be reachable for somebody that is built as tanky as I am.

Did you even watch the video?

They made some valid points, players will quit and all you are left with is a dying game, do you want a dead game just to feel special?

After watching this video I cant help but to think of "Lolsmash" .

 

 

Anytime there's talking about compensating for lack of skill - I don't need to watch a thing.

 

Time to buck it up - some people are going to be better than you are.

 

They've dumbed down pvp enough. God forbid you have to put effort and practice into anything - lets just whitewash it so that everyone is on the same level.

 

Blech X 100000000000

Edited December 8, 2012 by Seena

"Skill" is not quantifiable. There are too many variables to accurately balance anything with it.

 

Elo rating says otherwise.

 

SWTOR already uses what the video suggests. Two words: focus spec. Lots of power, but little skill required.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Smashbrother

You joking right?

There are players that can't play vanguard even though you just need to use 2 buttons to be good, maybe they should make a class with an ability with no cooldown, no cast time and no force/heat/ammo/energy/focus/rage cost called unlimited power that would 1 shot everyone in the warzone, i am sure some people would still fail at playing that class.

Anytime there's talking about compensating for lack of skill - I don't need to watch a thing.

 

Time to buck it up - some people are going to be better than you are.

 

They've dumbed down pvp enough. God forbid you have to put effort and practice into anything - lets just whitewash it so that everyone is on the same level.

 

Blech X 100000000000

The video isn't about that, it's about making harder hitting skills take more skill to pull off, not make things easy, but at the same time give noobs a entry level skill that works up until a point to stay competitive but to be fully effective they would have to learn more complex skills.

 

When a game is to hard noobs will quit so key is to make the game easy to learn hard to master, right now Swtor is FOTM classes or FOT "year " in Swtor's case, the more complex skills/classes are pretty much junk vs facerolling classes and skills, example 'lolsmash", Assassins & Maras, ect. FOT "Y" those classes hit to hard with no skill other then press this button on cool down compared to example a Bounty Hunter trying to get 5 stacks of "Target lock" to make the best of "Heatseeker Missiles"

 

A good start would be to "NERF" the living hell out of ALL AoE damage by a good 75% right now players are using AoE as single target burst skills with no positional requirements, Aoe should be for just that, area of effect damage (to hit more then one target), also all hard hitting single target nukes should take some type of "ramp up time" (example: BH's Target Lock to Heatseeker Missile build up) this means no 5+k hit from any class or skill with the press of one button with not ramp up time.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Nijraw

The video isn't about that, it's about making harder hitting skills take more skill to pull off, not make things easy, but at the same time give noobs a entry level skill that works up until a point to stay competitive but to be fully effective they would have to learn more complex skills.

 

They've already got that: It's a buff called 'Bolster'. It makes a newb's skills VERY potent the less skills they have. It increases the ammount of damage each skill does to make up for the lack of available skills and talent points. It provides a less substantial buff the higher level the toon.

The video isn't about that, it's about making harder hitting skills take more skill to pull off, not make things easy, but at the same time give noobs a entry level skill that works up until a point to stay competitive but to be fully effective they would have to learn more complex skills.

 

When a game is to hard noobs will quit so key is to make the game easy to learn hard to master, right now Swtor is FOTM classes or FOT "year " in Swtor's case, the more complex skills/classes are pretty much junk vs facerolling classes and skills, example 'lolsmash", Assassins & Maras, ect. FOT "Y" those classes hit to hard with no skill other then press this button on cool down compared to example a Bounty Hunter trying to get 5 stacks of "Target lock" to make the best of "Heatseeker Missiles"

 

I watched the video - until a little more than half way through. This game is not, and can not, be compared to Street Fighter. It isn't Bayonetta. Nor imo should it ever be treated as such.

 

People who can't compensate for other class abilities, etc will always cry about "FOTM" - this is nothing new to SWTOR or ANY MMO.

 

And as soon as you give a powerful skill that's hard to master - you'll get even MORE complaining that the game isn't noob friendly. (In fact this is THE most "noob friendly" game I've ever played. I've been gaming since EQ. If they made it any easier the game would play itself).

 

This game accommodates people with no real skill.. You are even told that certain classes are easier to play than others - and it's recommended that beginners stick with these classes. Even with that noted - there are no complex moves - just button mashing. The skill comes with knowing which button to mash and when. With studying other toons, knowing which heals to interrupt, recognizing the types of status effects. It comes with knowing about procs, and reading up on which stats (or parsing your own) to max with your build. It comes with keybind and layout experimentation. With understanding how resolve works, and understanding which cc's to break and which not to. Knowing how and when to use your knockbacks. Knowing your maps, how to stay out of LOS, etc.

 

None of that requires L33T gaming skills - just time and dedication.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Seena

It's easy to see who in this thread has not watched the video. All they talk about is the basic game design principle, make the game easy to learn and hard to master.