For starters, I’m a Jedi Guardian tank, but I’d like to hear from everyone.

Also, we’re talking about threat and holding aggro. I don’t care about PvP at all and it doesn’t enter into this discussion one bit.

I’ve tanked in several MMOs and I’ve never had problems holding aggro like this since the Burning Crusade, and I didn’t really have trouble then either since we all ran threat meters. My TPS was great, but the DPSers were always right behind you. It was tuned very, very tight.

It feels that way here too, only I can’t see threat at all, so I have no idea what’s going on.

AoE tanking is a nightmare.

I’m still able to perform my role, but it’s a white-knuckle, taunts-always-on-cooldown experience that seems to simply be tuned wrong.

Cue a bunch of posts saying “I have no problems and you’re bad.” Just save it, kids. No one’s interested in your chest thumping. I’m wondering if other tanks feel this way and if they’ve found any methods to deal with it.

Except for “ask the DPS to wait two whole seconds.” I’ve tried that. DPS seems to have serious ADHD issues and they just want to open up instantly. Yeah, it’s still wrong, but I want to work on the part I can do something about, which is the tanking portion.

Unfortunately, most people are coming to TOR from WoW. Threat hasn't been an issue in WoW for a couple of years. Re-training the DPS to wait before attacking is proving more difficult than imagined.

I think single target threat is in a good place. I think AoE tanking needs an adjustment to make it a little easier on the tank.

Unfortunately, most people are coming to TOR from WoW. Threat hasn't been an issue in WoW for a couple of years. Re-training the DPS to wait before attacking is proving more difficult than imagined.

 

I think single target threat is in a good place. I think AoE tanking needs an adjustment to make it a little easier on the tank.

Well, threat in Vanilla and TBC was quite tight. I wasn't until Wrath that my TPS suddenly jumped to like three times what the #2 guy in the group had and I could sleepwalk through tanking.

This isn't what I'd like. I think the truth is somewhere in between.

But with threat tuned this tight, and DPS classes with no threat dumps (I might be mistaken here), I find I occasionally lose threat on single targets too, but only with a crazy DPSer who started pounding on the mob the same second I did. Even then, I can hold it for a long while, but I know I need to have a finger hovering over that taunt key for use any second. Taunting doesn't seem like the emergency button it should be, but part of my tanking rotation.

I've heard that Guardians have the weakest AoE threat of any tanking class, so it's not just you.

Coming from tanking in WoW, where threat is a joke now, I kind of like having to work at it a bit more.

The biggest surprise for me had been people pulling off my initial target. In WoW these days, you can sneeze on a mob & it sticks to you like glue. There have been situations in Flashpoints where I've been tab targeting like crazy & didn't get back to the original mob quickly enough before a Shadow or Commando pulled aggro.

It'd help if tab targeting was a bit smoother & worked in more predictable ways. I hope they work the kinks out of that instead of taking the easy way out & buffing the hell out of base threat for all tanks (which is pretty much what Blizzard did).

If threat becomes too easy to get & maintain, main tanking becomes really, really dull.

I agree that we don't want it too easy as a tank. I like it when I have to keep looking around to make sure I am maintaining threat on me.

It keeps the encounter exciting.

The problem i feel when tanking with melee in this game is one and simple, almost all mobs are ranged!

There are 2 aoe dps skills with melee tank and 1 aoe taunt, it's a little short when group grow big and spread, but then again this is also a good thing it makes you think before you charge, it makes you said to your squad CC that one and that one.

Also using the scenario (isn't always an option) generally helps but in this chapter dps'ers are generally too much impatient for this to work lol.

If threat becomes too easy to get & maintain, main tanking becomes really, really dull.

Agreed, and I don't want this, but it seems too far in the other direction right now.

I've also heard that this is a Knight problem. I leveled a Shadow tank to 50, but didn't gear her for raiding in favor of my Knight, who I just enjoy more.

However, the Trooper tank I roll with makes complaints similar to mine. The first thing I heard in my new guild after saying "Hey guys, could you just give me two whole seconds to smack this guy before you unload cooldowns?" was "You sound like [our current tank]."

Yeah, I bet I do.

Well, threat in Vanilla and TBC was quite tight. I wasn't until Wrath that my TPS suddenly jumped to like three times what the #2 guy in the group had and I could sleepwalk through tanking.

Vanilla and TBC were 4-5 years ago. That's a long time since threat actually mattered in the biggest MMO on the market.

I hope they work the kinks out of that instead of taking the easy way out & buffing the hell out of base threat for all tanks (which is pretty much what Blizzard did).

Blizzard eliminated threat because the threat meta-game wasn't fun. I actually prefer a model where threat is easier and tanks spend more time on active mitigation abilities. I don't want threat to be stupid easy so any monkey can do it, but it needs to be tuned to a point where someone doing a basic rotation won't loose threat on an AoE pack if they make a single mistake. Give us more active mitigation work that also acts as threat (like a damage shield or AoE debuffs).

I agree that we don't want it too easy as a tank. I like it when I have to keep looking around to make sure I am maintaining threat on me.

You can't see the status of your threat. You can see the status of your aggro.

From a shadow tank perspective: Single target feels pretty much where it should be. AoE threat however is a mess. You simply will not hold it against commando's, gunslingers, etc.

Overall though the threat in this game feels slightly wonky at times since there are far to many abilities that trash mobs have that may make it switch targets. Which makes the tank feel under valued imo.

Blizzard eliminated threat because the threat meta-game wasn't fun. I actually prefer a model where threat is easier and tanks spend more time on active mitigation abilities. I don't want threat to be stupid easy so any monkey can do it, but it needs to be tuned to a point where someone doing a basic rotation won't loose threat on an AoE pack if they make a single mistake. Give us more active mitigation work that also acts as threat (like a damage shield or AoE debuffs).

I like tanking because it feels like being one of those guys spinning plates on sticks, running back and forth to each plate making sure they keep spinning and that nothing drops. It's like juggling and it ruined healing and DPSing for me, which can't hold my interest anymore.

I like having a dozen balls in the air, but these feel like they're made of lead.

Guardian/Juggernaut > holding threat on more than one target is hard.

Assassin/Shadow > keeping threat on bosses can be hard if the DPS get too spammy/over dpsing, but AOE is generally fine.

Powertech/Vanguard > holding threat is cake, has lots more (3 abilities more) AOE than Guard/Jugg, and comparable single target.

Guardian/Juggernaut > holding threat on more than one target is hard.

Assassin/Shadow > keeping threat on bosses can be hard if the DPS get too spammy/over dpsing, but AOE is genral fine.

Powertech/Vanguard > holding threat is cake, has lots more (3 abilities more) AOE than Guard/Jugg, and comparable single target.

So it is the Burning Crusade.

Paladins = off tank that hold adds.

Warriors = Single target, Main tank.

Bleh.

Having no issues with threat. Once you get some decent gear i dont often loose agro and when i do its to a commando who can tank the dmg.

Rule of thumb = if its not gold+ then tanking it isnt a major worry.

(Gaurdian defence spec - columi/rakata geared)

Having no issues with threat. Once you get some decent gear i dont often loose agro and when i do its to a commando who can tank the dmg.

I'm in full Columi. Trouble is, so are the DPS.

Threat is a boring mechanic, it was terrible in WoW during the late stages of classic and early BC and then they made it an annoyance again at the beginning of Cata before they sobered up.

I like my cool-downs to be survivability, throttling players by threat just winds up making the game less fun. I realise that MMOs aren't supposed to be fun but screw it! I'm old and my leisure time is no longer about suffering, it's about goofing off.

I say make threat secondary, make my game while tanking a game of easing the burden on my healers. That way healers can spend more of their time trying to keep the fire standers... I MEAN DPS... up.

I'm really, really tired of trying to teach DPS to stop licking the windows anyway.

I'm in full Columi. Trouble is, so are the DPS.

With guardian i find it easy, jump in hit 1 mob, stasis 2nd, force push another kill 1st jump to 3rd (pushed) saber through 2nd. All this while i use force sweep and aoe agro taunt. and the single target taunt i use on a mob we are not hitting.

Its just finding a rotation that suits you. Tanking 8mans in nmm atm and honestly i dont have an issue. O and dont forget to "guardian leap" those pesky commandos once and a while (use guard on highest melee dps)

Blizzard eliminated threat because the threat meta-game wasn't fun. I actually prefer a model where threat is easier and tanks spend more time on active mitigation abilities. I don't want threat to be stupid easy so any monkey can do it, but it needs to be tuned to a point where someone doing a basic rotation won't loose threat on an AoE pack if they make a single mistake. Give us more active mitigation work that also acts as threat (like a damage shield or AoE debuffs).

I always thought it was fun -- or, it used to be fun when DPS pulling aggro in a 5 man pretty much meant instant death.

At least then, there's something at risk for the players.

I've heard that Guardians have the weakest AoE threat of any tanking class, so it's not just you.

I've got a 50 jugg, but I'm currently rerolling a new one. At level 29, I'm having to remind people that I only have a single AOE, and its on a 15s cooldown.

Anyway, I found on my 50 that once I had the AOE taunt and sweeping strikes, it got much easier. Add in the various AOE improvements in a immortal build and it's not bad at all.

The real problem is that DPS itemization just scales so much faster than jugg/guard threat generation. It's laughable trying to hold agro against a tank companion with its 100% threat modifier and more easily spammed AOEs. Then you need to figure that every DPS is accustomed to DPSing against their tank companion, and it's no surprise they're overestimating the relatively gimped jugg/guard.

With guardian i find it easy, jump in hit 1 mob, stasis 2nd, force push another kill 1st jump to 3rd (pushed) saber through 2nd. All this while i use force sweep and aoe agro taunt. and the single target taunt i use on a mob we are not hitting.

While this may work for Guardians, it doesn't for Juggernauts. Part of the reason being, a Mercenary will open up with Death From Above as soon as you're halfway through your jump. Even if a Commando does the same thing with Mortar Volley, you've still got a 2 second cushion, due to the delayed damage from MV vs DFA; 2 seconds vs. ~.5 seconds.

I see the problem overall as being twofold. One, as someone said earlier, WoW and other games have taught DPS that they do not ever need to wait to unload on something. Games since WoW have started off with a threat mechanic system that requires dps to wait at least a couple seconds before they unload, but they've reversed that because it's virtually impossible anymore to get dps to wait. Back in Vanilla/BC WoW, where threat was an issue, we didn't have raid markers, but we always used a Main Assist. That person was the one responsible for knowing the priority kill order, and dps were responsible for assisting that person to make sure they were attacking the correct target. We don't have that here. Everyone just tab targets to something and starts dpsing it. Instead of the tank needing to focus on keeping 1 mob off dps, and the rest just off the healers, there's multiple mobs being dpsd at the same time, even on non-aoe pulls, or pulls that shouldn't be considered aoe (2 elites, 3 strongs, 3-4 normals).

The second problem is the positioning and ability usage of mobs. There are far too many ranged mobs, that stand just out of tank aoe range, and tanks (for the most part) don't have a way to control them. I'm not sure about assassins because I haven't played one, but I do play a 50 Jugg and a 50 Powertech. If there's 3 mobs at range, there's no good way to deal with all 3 of them, even on the Powertech. Jugg can throw at one, charge to the other, and the third is out of range of everything. Powertech can charge to one, grapple the second, and the third is still loose. Tank aoe damage has a very small range, in addition to the fact it will not do damage if you're moving when you use it (we've tested this multiple times), Smash and Sweep from the Jugg and Flame Sweep from the Powertech.

I am of the school of thought that likes tanking to be a challenge, that threat is as much the tank's responsibility as the dpsers. Hitting 3 buttons and going afk as a tank, or mashing buttons as fast as you can as dps, to me, just isn't fun. At the same time, we lack the tools to be able to do that right now. I also don't think that the threat mechanic playing a major role in gaming is something that will ever come back. I think too many people will complain if it does, and it'll get nerfed into WotLK era again, because there's too many players who just want to see big numbers and, (currently perceived) "top dps", and to do that, dps has to be able to unload instantly and not worry about dying from pulling agro.

While this may work for Guardians, it doesn't for Juggernauts. Part of the reason being, a Mercenary will open up with Death From Above as soon as you're halfway through your jump. Even if a Commando does the same thing with Mortar Volley, you've still got a 2 second cushion, due to the delayed damage from MV vs DFA; 2 seconds vs. ~.5 seconds.

When I am on my commando, there really isn't much a tank can do to keep aggro on a group if I use my AOE abilities. 2 seconds doesn't matter much when in the first 5 seconds I can do 3-4 times the amount of group damage that the tank can. They pretty much have a couple seconds while MV is charging up and their AOE taunt to keep them...after that it will go after me unless I switched to single-target.

Tanks just don't do anywhere near the AOE damage that DPS can do. Which is fine...DPS just need to know the situations when they can use their AOE skills and when they need to single target.

Well from what has been passed around during beta, threat isnt mainly based on average dps. If a commando is spamming grav round and wonders why he keeps getting agro then im sorry i just let him die. In a rotation a smart dps will always include his de-agro skill and a 1 or 2 second break where he can loose agro and gain ammo.

The problem with dps in this game is not that there so good they take agro, its that they are so bad they do not see why ^^

Guardian/Juggernaut > holding threat on more than one target is hard.

 

Assassin/Shadow > keeping threat on bosses can be hard if the DPS get too spammy/over dpsing, but AOE is generally fine.

 

Powertech/Vanguard > holding threat is cake, has lots more (3 abilities more) AOE than Guard/Jugg, and comparable single target.

Guardian/Jugg AoE threat gen is actually slightly better than Assassin/Shadow: the two classes generate roughly the same amount of threat and Guardians/Juggs are actually about to sustain it for a longer period of time and for less activation time. It's close enough that player skill matters more than the class differences but, equal skill, Guardians will have marginally better AoE threat gen.

Assassin/Shadow ST threat gen is actually some of the best in the game. TK Throw hits like a truck, as does PA Project. I've got no clue where you're getting the "keeping threat is hard as a Shad/Sin" from. My main is a Shadow tank and I've never had problems keeping threat.

The big reason that most tanks have "problems" with threat is because a large number of bosses have prolific amounts of threat drops. The ST taunts in TOR are on 15 second CDs for good reason: a lot of the bosses expect you to use them about that often. Pretty much any time you're knocked back, expect it to be a threat drop. If the boss suddenly turns to attack someone else and it's not expected (ex: Soa ball lightning or mind trap), don't be afraid to use taunt; it'll be back up in 15 seconds. On bosses without any threat drops, no tank should have any threat problems outside of the first 10-15 seconds of a fight. Some people just aren't used to BW's love affair with threat drop mechanics.