Figured this would be interesting, a sort of what if Scenario. So anywhere here is my VS thread, pitting General Rieekan against General Veers only this time the Rebels have more in store for the approaching Veers and his Blizzard Force. Anyway lets get down to the rules...

Rules

1. Tech is the same as it is shown in the movies and EU(all of it)

2. Provide a reasonable explanation as to why either side could win, no just saying "so and so stomps because of tech, or troops or whatever".

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Now here is listing what each person has at their disposal.

General Rieekan

He has access to the things in Echo Base, minus the X-wings/Y-wings/Falcon/Outrider. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Echo_Base

Edit: Rieekan only had 4 Snowspeeders to use now, and the rebels only have their trenches no weapon emplacements however the Specforce still have their own heavy weapons.

Along with....

4 AT-APs= http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/All_Terrain_Attack_Pod

2 HAVws= http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_Assault_Vehicle/wheeled_A6_Juggernaut

2 MPTLs= http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mobile_Proton_Torpedo_Launcher-2a

2 T4-B Heavy Tanks= http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/T4-B_heavy_tank

3 AT-TEs= http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/All_Terrain_Tactical_Enforcer

2 AT-XTs= http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/All_Terrain_Experimental_Transport

Specforce Wilderness Fighters(lets say 1,800 men)= http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wilderness_Fighters

Also to those of you who question the Rebel SpecForces have a look...

The average SpecForce trooper was a few years older than a regular Rebel soldier, had above average physical and mental abilities and was dedicated to the Alliance and its cause. While they tended to be a little wild in their private lives, when in the field they generally were extremely professional. Like most Alliance soldiers SpecForce troopers were idealistic and committed to the Rebellion against the Empire, although they tended to be even more dedicated. A great number of them were former soldiers from the Empire.

SpecForce troopers were trained to use a variety of tactics, easily adapting to different environments and finding ways to take cover and hold a position in any situation. Hand blasters were standard for every soldier, but some divisions have been known to specialize in particular equipment for some of the more dangerous missions.

"The first lesson they taught us in drop camp - basic training for Alliance Special Forces - is that knowing what a weapon can and can't do is important, but the true measure of a soldier does not lie in force of arms. A soldier relies on skill, intelligence and good fortune. A poor soldier relies on a weapon... and weapons can always fail."

―Colonel Marck Linth, Alliance SpecForces (5th Regiment).

Basic SpecForce training included two months of weapons drill using blasters, heavy weaponry, hand weapons and slugthrowers.

Now moving onto the Wilderness Fighters strictly since this is there area.

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SpecForce Wilderness Fighters, sometimes called Rangers were trained to use their terrain for the best tactical advantage in fighting. They were more mobile than their urban counterparts, and often equipped with A280 and A295 blaster rifles. Since there were so many different terrain types companies specialized for specific combat conditions: arctic, aquatic, jungle/forest, mountain, desert and plains. White-uniformed rangers, trained to work in cold terrain, were present during the Battle of Hoth.

 

Wilderness regiments were the only SpecForce branch to maintain repulsortank units without the involvement of other trooper specializations. They were trained to use heavy weapons and artillery to reduce their reliance on Heavy Weapon Specialists.

The Specforce also does have heavy weapons with them for this battle.

Edit: Also in Echo Base, Rieekan has 600 regular Rebel Troops just for base defense.

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General Veers

He has access to Blizzard Force= http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Blizzard_Force

This includes

4 AT-ATs= http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/All_Terrain_Armored_Transport(limiting the number, 9 was just way too many.)

A number of HAVws(lets just say he has 4)= http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_Assault_Vehicle/wheeled_A6_Juggernaut

A number of AT-STs(lets say 6)= http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/All_Terrain_Scout_Transport

A number of AT-ARs(lets say 2)= http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/All_Terrain_Advance_Raider

A number of AT-PTs(lets say 4)= http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/All_Terrain_Personal_Transport

A number of SnowTroopers(lets say an Imperial Regiment, so 2,500 troops.)

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Now I know this is a lot to read, especially for Rieekan but was wanting to point out that the Rebel Alliance did have trained troops that could deal with the Empire.

I have thought about this particular scenario a few times.

I think, in an all out battle, General Rieekan would eventually win. It depends on how he positions his forces. The MPTLs and AT-TEs will be useful in taking out some of the heavy walkers, and the specforce troops will be able to take on the Snowtroopers for a time, but I feel that Rieekan will be pushed back into Echo Base eventually.

But this is actually a good thing since there will be no retreat (if there is no option). General Rieekan can position his troops and set up traps for the Snowtroopers (who will be cut off from the AT-ATs). So once the supporting Snowtroopers are down, the SpecForce soldiers and whatever reserve armor Rieekan has can be moved (from what was the shuttle landing zone of Echo Base) to flank the remaining forces in Blizzard Force.

All in all, I think that Rieekan's position in Echo Base (and the fact that he doesn't have to worry about retreating to save the Rebellion) will win him the battle. The Heavy Armor helps too.

I have thought about this particular scenario a few times.

 

I think, in an all out battle, General Rieekan would eventually win. It depends on how he positions his forces. The MPTLs and AT-TEs will be useful in taking out some of the heavy walkers, and the specforce troops will be able to take on the Snowtroopers for a time, but I feel that Rieekan will be pushed back into Echo Base eventually.

 

But this is actually a good thing since there will be no retreat (if there is no option). General Rieekan can position his troops and set up traps for the Snowtroopers (who will be cut off from the AT-ATs). So once the supporting Snowtroopers are down, the SpecForce soldiers and whatever reserve armor Rieekan has can be moved (from what was the shuttle landing zone of Echo Base) to flank the remaining forces in Blizzard Force.

 

All in all, I think that Rieekan's position in Echo Base (and the fact that he doesn't have to worry about retreating to save the Rebellion) will win him the battle. The Heavy Armor helps too.

Was thinking along the same lines, truthfully it seemed the Rebels only really retreated due to a lack of Armor amongst other things. Have no doubt, if they have some vehicles with them the battle would have been more in their favor provided they would be able to quickly down the AT-ATs.

Was thinking along the same lines, truthfully it seemed the Rebels only really retreated due to a lack of Armor amongst other things. Have no doubt, if they have some vehicles with them the battle would have been more in their favor provided they would be able to quickly down the AT-ATs.

Yeah, I agree. Plus the Empire had unlimited resources to throw at them. But in this scenario, the Rebels have a high chance of winning.

Question: Is Rogue Squadron involved? That would seal the deal imo.

Yeah, I agree. Plus the Empire had unlimited resources to throw at them. But in this scenario, the Rebels have a high chance of winning.

 

Question: Is Rogue Squadron involved? That would seal the deal imo.

Edit: Actually no, cause then it might be a spite in favor of the Rebels. So no Rogue Squadron however they still have rebel pilots to fly the Snowspeeders.

Edit: Actually no, cause then it might be a spite in favor of the Rebels. So no Rogue Squadron however they still have rebel pilots to fly the Snowspeeders.

Well, so long as they have snowspeeders, the rebels are in good shape. I think they would win this one.

I'm afraid the Rebels and Rieekan just lacked the firepower, though Blizzard Force lacks anything to effectively counter Rieekan's air forces, their units are so heavily armored and so strong they will with time punch through the Rebel's defensive lines and annihilate opfor command

There will of course be imperial casualties, especially because of said lack of anti air weaponry, but as soon as the rebel staging area is threatened, there's nothing more they can do

I'm afraid the Rebels and Rieekan just lacked the firepower, though Blizzard Force lacks anything to effectively counter Rieekan's air forces, their units are so heavily armored and so strong they will with time punch through the Rebel's defensive lines and annihilate opfor command

 

There will of course be imperial casualties, especially because of said lack of anti air weaponry, but as soon as the rebel staging area is threatened, there's nothing more they can do

Well don't forget, the Wilderness Fighters have heavy weapons with them here for this scenario. Which means...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/PLX-2M_portable_missile_launcher

Those and

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/HH-15_projectile_launcher

These.

So they have the firepower along with any other heavy weaponry that I am forgetting, to cause significant damage.

Of course the Rebels had some firepower, but not enough, the movie clearly showed that whatever the Rebels fired at the Imperial armor had no effect, only an exploit of design made any impact on the imperial forces, and even that strategy was risky and difficult to pull off

In my mind, based on what resources where available to both commanders, the imperials would each and every time eventually break the rebel lines and send in the foot soldiers to wipe out the routing forces

Maybe I'm confused, but is this a "give the Rebels more troops to make harder on the imps" type of scenario?

I think that at the end of the day, Empire wins; because if they can take down the shield generator and have guns pointed at the hangars, they'll just have too much firepower (hello orbital bombardments) against the Rebels. Everyone knew that the Rebels weren't making a stand at Hoth, they were simply giving officers and high-priority people time to escape.

End of the day, Empire wins this 10 out of 10.

Maybe I'm confused, but is this a "give the Rebels more troops to make harder on the imps" type of scenario?

 

 

I think that at the end of the day, Empire wins; because if they can take down the shield generator and have guns pointed at the hangars, they'll just have too much firepower (hello orbital bombardments) against the Rebels. Everyone knew that the Rebels weren't making a stand at Hoth, they were simply giving officers and high-priority people time to escape.

 

End of the day, Empire wins this 10 out of 10.

Veers just has Blizzard Force, so no orbital bombardments for him and they only retreated due to not being able to put up a front against the Imp forces while here they have a chance, the biggest threat here for the Rebels are the AT-ATs so they just need to take those down fast.

Also the neck is part of an AT-ATs weakspot Command, so the Specforce can take down an AT-AT ground wise too. The MPTLs can also do damage, aswell as the T4-B tanks.

Edit: Also gave Echo Base(for the inside only) 600 Rebel Troops, at its height it had 7,500 combat and command personal but that would be unfair for the Snowtroopers, plus the remaining Wilderness Fighters could fall back and strengthen the base defense.

I don't know much about this but I'll use my experience playing Empire at War to judge the outcome.

Firstly, does Rieekan have Snowspeeders? Because if he doesn't then he's at a severe disadvantage. Rieekan has MPTLs, which in any other confrontation would tear through Blizzard Force with ease. However Veers has 9 AT-ATs with powerful, long range fire capablities, and extremely effective against MPTLs - as soon as the proton torperdo launchers enter the battlefield, the AT-ATs will quickly target them and rip them to pieces. We also have to consider the fact that Blizzard Force can take over enemy trenches as so protect themselves against attack, however they'll be pretty defenceless out in the open.

Nonetheless those AT-ATs are going to do some heavy damage, if I were in Veers position I'd take out the MPTLs first then move on to the other tank units, and have my walkers and the like engage the enemies walkers. With the tanks eliminated, Rieekan would be at a major disadvantage and his walkers would be severly outnumbered and be quickly destroyed. Then its just a case of taking out his ground forces, laying waste to his shield generator and razing his base.

I don't know much about this but I'll use my experience playing Empire at War to judge the outcome.

 

Firstly, does Rieekan have Snowspeeders? Because if he doesn't then he's at a severe disadvantage. Rieekan has MPTLs, which in any other confrontation would tear through Blizzard Force with ease. However Veers has 9 AT-ATs with powerful, long range fire capablities, and extremely effective against MPTLs - as soon as the proton torperdo launchers enter the battlefield, the AT-ATs will quickly target them and rip them to pieces. We also have to consider the fact that Blizzard Force can take over enemy trenches as so protect themselves against attack, however they'll be pretty defenceless out in the open.

 

Nonetheless those AT-ATs are going to do some heavy damage, if I were in Veers position I'd take out the MPTLs first then move on to the other tank units, and have my walkers and the like engage the enemies walkers. With the tanks eliminated, Rieekan would be at a major disadvantage and his walkers would be severly outnumbered and be quickly destroyed. Then its just a case of taking out his ground forces, laying waste to his shield generator and razing his base.

Yes he does, Rieekan has Echo Base entirely and all its resources, and again...Veers just has Blizzard Force, so no orbital bombardments or TIEs or anything of that nature.

I have thought about this particular scenario a few times.

 

I think, in an all out battle, General Rieekan would eventually win. It depends on how he positions his forces. The MPTLs and AT-TEs will be useful in taking out some of the heavy walkers, and the specforce troops will be able to take on the Snowtroopers for a time, but I feel that Rieekan will be pushed back into Echo Base eventually.

 

But this is actually a good thing since there will be no retreat (if there is no option). General Rieekan can position his troops and set up traps for the Snowtroopers (who will be cut off from the AT-ATs). So once the supporting Snowtroopers are down, the SpecForce soldiers and whatever reserve armor Rieekan has can be moved (from what was the shuttle landing zone of Echo Base) to flank the remaining forces in Blizzard Force.

 

All in all, I think that Rieekan's position in Echo Base (and the fact that he doesn't have to worry about retreating to save the Rebellion) will win him the battle. The Heavy Armor helps too.

AT-APs - practical bantha fodder, they may have powerful firing capabilities but nothing strong enough to do any real damage on the walkers before the AT-ATs blow them to pieces in a couple of shots.

HAVws - these actually might be a threat, but the AT-ATs have the advantage of height and can deal out damage from above, taking out the turret emplacements on the top which height would have previously protected them from. And Veers has some of his own.

T4-B Heavy Tanks - these things have powerful shields, but could not withstand sustained laser fire from an AT-AT for more than 15 seconds. Their missile launchers might do some damage but they'll be getting blown up left, right and center.

AT-TE - those mass driver cannons will definitely do some serious damage to the AT-ATs but then again, how high could those cannons reach? I also don't believe these things were shielded so a few well aimed, aerial strikes at the cockpit and gunners would quickly decommission this tanks.

AT-XTs - ha! I laughed when I saw these guys. I thought for a moment they might have the advantage of speed but they only move 15 km faster than a AT-TE, not fast enough.

Really the major threat is the snowspeeders. But how many did they manage to take down in the Battle of Hoth, 5? And I believe Rogue Squadron took down three of those and they are absent from this battle. What's more the AT-ATs downed many snowspeeders themselves. I reckon Veers could take out five in this battle, perhaps one or two more - but not before Veers has torn through his tanks and lain waste to his walkers. And in only takes 1 AT-AT to destroy a shield generator.

And concerning Rieekan hunkering down in his base, that won't be so effective when the shield generators are down and the remaining AT-ATs are blowing it sky high.

Its fun being able to do some proper debating. Come on! Fight me!

Alright am limiting Veers' AT-ATs to just 3, in hindsight I probably should have realized just how powerful they really are so ya there are only 3 now. Though Beni don't forget, the Wilderness Fighters do have heavy weapons for this scenario and just because Rogue Squadron isn't here doesn't mean the pilots can't take out the AT-ATs.

Along with the Wilderness Fighters and their heavy weapons, neck shots are also a weak point in an AT-AT as is the underbelly. Also don't forget that the AT-XTs have a plasma deflector shield, they may not be able to move much faster then the AT-TE but they make up for it with a defense capability something which the AT-STs lack.

Also again, no aerial strikes...Veers just has his ground forces here.

You seem to be forgetting the existence of Veers' 9 AT-ATs - the most formidable assault unit that the Empire possessed - these guys are going to cut through Rieekan's forces pretty quickly - especially given their long range capabilities, meaning they can attack before Vieekan fires a shot. I mean, what assault units does Vieekan have to oppose him?

 

AT-APs - practical bantha fodder, they may have powerful firing capabilities but nothing strong enough to do any real damage on the walkers before the AT-ATs blow them to pieces in a couple of shots.

 

HAVws - these actually might be a threat, but the AT-ATs have the advantage of height and can deal out damage from above, taking out the turret emplacements on the top which height would have previously protected them from. And Veers has some of his own.

 

T4-B Heavy Tanks - these things have powerful shields, but could not withstand sustained laser fire from an AT-AT for more than 15 seconds. Their missile launchers might do some damage but they'll be getting blown up left, right and center.

 

AT-TE - those mass driver cannons will definitely do some serious damage to the AT-ATs but then again, how high could those cannons reach? I also don't believe these things were shielded so a few well aimed, aerial strikes at the cockpit and gunners would quickly decommission this tanks.

 

AT-XTs - ha! I laughed when I saw these guys. I thought for a moment they might have the advantage of speed but they only move 15 km faster than a AT-TE, not fast enough.

 

Really the major threat is the snowspeeders. But how many did they manage to take down in the Battle of Hoth, 5? And I believe Rogue Squadron took down three of those and they are absent from this battle. What's more the AT-ATs downed many snowspeeders themselves. I reckon Veers could take out five in this battle, perhaps one or two more - but not before Veers has torn through his tanks and lain waste to his walkers. And in only takes 1 AT-AT to destroy a shield generator.

 

And concerning Rieekan hunkering down in his base, that won't be so effective when the shield generators are down and the remaining AT-ATs are blowing it sky high.

 

Its fun being able to do some proper debating. Come on! Fight me!

Alrighty. I'm going off of the Battlefront 2 layout of Hoth for this.

Remember that the AT-AT's don't have the ability to actually enter Echo Base, so Rieekan can hunker down and set up traps within the base and position the bulk of his forces in the Rebel staging area at the 'back' of Echo Base, which I don't believe the AT-AT's can reach. Then it's only a matter of time until Veers run out of troops.

After that, Rieekan can deploy his snowspeeders to flank the AT-AT's and take them out with the tow cables, because by the time they can react, the speeders will have latched a tow cable on them. And then he can also have the Wilderness fighters flank them and hit any remaining AT-ST's with rockets and get under the AT-AT's and hit the underbelly.

Now, I don't think the AT-ATs can get to that staging area, but if they can, then this scenario is pointless as the AT-ATs can flank the rebels just as effectively.

However, I do remember managing to get the AT-AT back there on Battlefront 2 so there's that.

Theres only 3 AT-ATs now, so I think Rieekan can deal with them using Snowspeeders while the other walkers/turrets and the like take on the other vehicles that Veers brings forth. Remember now, that Echo Base did have trenches and also anti-infantry and anti-vehicle batteries, DF,9 anti-infantry and 1.4 FD P-Tower laser cannons and while the cannons aren't effective against AT-ATs they can be against AT-STs and the like.

But what's the point then? You're artificially downsizing Veers forces and boosting those of Rieekan to produce a victory for the Alliance, it would be better then to choose a battlefield with two commanders on equal footing

But what's the point then? You're artificially downsizing Veers forces and boosting those of Rieekan to produce a victory for the Alliance, it would be better then to choose a battlefield with two commanders on equal footing

Because 9 AT-ATs is overkill, and I ain't boosting Rieekan at all. In the OP I did say he has access to the entirety of Echo Base and people are underestimating the RA all the time.

Edit: Alright I added 1 AT-AT for Veers so he has 4 now, Rieekan has only 4 Snowspeeders to use and 4 AT-APs, no anti-batteries however the Specforce still has the heavy weapons and trenches around Echo Base.

Because 9 AT-ATs is overkill, and I ain't boosting Rieekan at all. In the OP I did say he has access to the entirety of Echo Base and people are underestimating the RA all the time.

But if one commander has access to all his units shouldn't the other one have it as well? 9 AT-ATs are overkill yes, but if the Imperial military had a field manual it would be named "The Art of Overkill"

The battle between Rieekan and General Veers was always supposed to be one sided as one commander was on the defensive, out manned and out gunned by his adversary, the Rebels had few victories when their enemy was prepared

A better alternative would be to ask who would win in a battle betweeen Rieekan and Veers if both sides were seemingly equal in strength, a question of who's the better leader, now it's just a question of who brought the most guns

But if one commander has access to all his units shouldn't the other one have it as well? 9 AT-ATs are overkill yes, but if the Imperial military had a field manual it would be named "The Art of Overkill"

 

The battle between Rieekan and General Veers was always supposed to be one sided as one commander was on the defensive, out manned and out gunned by his adversary, the Rebels had few victories when their enemy was prepared

 

A better alternative would be to ask who would win in a battle betweeen Rieekan and Veers if both sides were seemingly equal in strength, a question of who's the better leader, now it's just a question of who brought the most guns

Not really, Veers still has the technological advantage and numbers, it just isn't so heavily one sided now. Those AT-TEs aren't as heavily armored as an AT-AT, most of what Rieekan has can be taken down with what Veers has got. Rieekan and his men just need to really worry in how to take down the AT-ATs, and by when they do they still would have to deal with the other forces that Veers has.

I also toned down Rieekan's forces, he just has the trenches around Echo Base and 4 Snowspeeders. Infact, I drastically cut Rieekan's forces, Echo Base at its peak had 7,500 combat/command personal and inside the base I only gave him 600 Rebel Troops.

Alright am limiting Veers' AT-ATs to just 3, in hindsight I probably should have realized just how powerful they really are so ya there are only 3 now. Though Beni don't forget, the Wilderness Fighters do have heavy weapons for this scenario and just because Rogue Squadron isn't here doesn't mean the pilots can't take out the AT-ATs.

 

Along with the Wilderness Fighters and their heavy weapons, neck shots are also a weak point in an AT-AT as is the underbelly. Also don't forget that the AT-XTs have a plasma deflector shield, they may not be able to move much faster then the AT-TE but they make up for it with a defense capability something which the AT-STs lack.

 

Also again, no aerial strikes...Veers just has his ground forces here.

The walker's strong external 9095-T8511 grade durasteel armor was virtually impervious to all but the heaviest of artillery weapons. ~ Wookieepedia.

So that means that nothing short of missle launchers and mass driver cannons are going to penetrate those defenses - Rieekan has 5 units that can dish out that kind of firepower - all his other tanks will be useless. Most likely those units will engage the walkers (who have the advantage of range and height) while the rest of Vieekan's forces tackle the other units. The HAVws and AT-TEs will soon be destroyed, they are outmatched in every respect, and then Veers can turn his attention to the flagging remaining rebel forces.

I reckon, if Veers plays his cards right, he can preserve at least one AT-AT. And that will be enough to raze the Rebel's base. Another tactic Veers can deploy is have one or two of his HAVws cut off the Rebel hangar and destroy it, prevented snowspeeders from being deployed. Given these units speed (160 km/h), the ability to roll right over the enemy and its superconducting armour, I reckon they can get through any defences the Rebels will have prepared for them, and that removes a significant advantage for Vieekan.

But lets say all the AT-ATs are destroyed, Veers can still seal off the hangar with HAVws, and attack the Rebels from two fronts (basing this off my knowledge of Battlefront as well ). If the rebels are losing the battle, their forces will be significantly depleted, and Veers already outnumbers Rieekan in terms of ground troops. So Veers will storm Echo Base from two fronts and tear the Rebels apart. Aurbere says traps, but what traps exactly? Collapsing caves? Cave-ins isn't going to be enough to defeat 2,000+ of the Empire's elite.

. Aurbere says traps, but what traps exactly? Collapsing caves? Cave-ins isn't going to be enough to defeat 2,000+ of the Empire's elite.

Remember those two bridges that lead to the back hangar of Echo Base? He can blow them up (some stupid snowtrooper will probably fall into the bottomless crevasse and do the Wilhelm scream ). This would force Veers to follow only one path, and I think that path would cut his troops off from any remaining AT-ATs.

So it would basically be Snowtroopers + any vehicles that can climb that slope vs. whatever Rieekan has left + the ability of knowing where your enemy is coming from. Point the turrets over there and gun them down as they pop up. The rebels will have cover and the Snowtroopers will be out in the open.

But if the AT-AT can get over that slope... Rebels=destroyed.